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EG#9 said:
I'll make this my last response, because your posts have been at best intellectually dishonest and at worst... I missed on Bunch because he's a 5th year kid who is currently at a prep school in North Carolina as is Jefferson who currently is not committed anywhere and may or may not end up at a high major. I used 247 to look up recruits and as such they have Bunch listed in North Carolina and not Wisconsin, even though he's a Wisconsin kid. I am not going to take my time to find out if there are any kids from Minnesota playing a 5th year at a prep school this year and are going to a high major. Someone like Ryan James probably knows the answer to this.

In your original post, and again in this one, you use numbers like 9,10,11 and 12 for Wisconsin while using numbers like 1,2, and 3 for Minnesota. You did a similar thing with Indiana from my (brief) research as well. The problem here is that you are taking every kid from Wisconsin who has committed to any D-1 school and comparing them to kids from Minnesota who are going to HIGH MAJOR D-1 schools. I was trying to get you down the road of comparing apples to apples, but you haven't acknowledged that. I can name 8 kids off the top of my head that have committed to D-1 schools from Minnesota this year, so the numbers 1,2, or 3 have no validity unless you just want to talk HIGH MAJOR commitments.

My point certainly is not that Minnesota produces talent on the level of an Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, or Maryland (states you mentioned previously) but that it produces a good amount of talent relative to its population similar to a Wisconsin (which also does a good job). The Gophers haven't struggled because the state of Minnesota doesn't produce enough talent and the overall talent that's come through the program (in state and out of state) since Clem left has been good enough to produce much better results than we've actually seen.
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EG, don't even waste your time responding to his nonsense. Take the high road and ignore his chatter.
 

1)There is more talent than there was 20-30 years ago. Then there would be a very good big man every 2-3 years, never a guard.
2) Dividing the number of recruits in a state by the number of programs to calculate and adjusted recruiting competitiveness comparison number sounds fair. But in some states e.g. Indiana with three B1G quality programs that would seem to make our odds seem more reasonable, but not Ohio which has one, or PA which has maybe 1 and that would be Pitt. Illinois has one, Iowa which produces similar numbers to us has two. The fact is that the states like Illinois with low numbers of high programs are targets for every other surrounding state program and national power programs
3) The problem is not that different than football. We produce a small number of B1G players (4 seems way too high to me on average, I think the number would be closer to 2), but after that to get to places with lots of players we have to go a long way, Illinois being the closest. Then you start going south and east from there.
4) Our problem last year was that the kids in the state were too good. We generally hold our own fine in-state versus other B1G programs, with the possible exception of MSU, where we have also been outworked. When we start having great players with the hoops equivalents of helmet schools all over them it is a lot harder when they have seen ten years of mediocrity from the program.
5) I don't think it is accurate to conclude Anim or Wilson are misses until that is proven. Having an opinion is fine, but concluding there were 4 academically eligible B1G level talents in-state this year is not supported by evidence (e.g. offers from multiple B1G level programs), yet anyway.
 

corcoran1 said:
1)There is more talent than there was 20-30 years ago. Then there would be a very good big man every 2-3 years, never a guard.
2) Dividing the number of recruits in a state by the number of programs to calculate and adjusted recruiting competitiveness comparison number sounds fair. But in some states e.g. Indiana with three B1G quality programs that would seem to make our odds seem more reasonable, but not Ohio which has one, or PA which has maybe 1 and that would be Pitt. Illinois has one, Iowa which produces similar numbers to us has two. The fact is that the states like Illinois with low numbers of high programs are targets for every other surrounding state program and national power programs
3) The problem is not that different than football. We produce a small number of B1G players (4 seems way too high to me on average, I think the number would be closer to 2), but after that to get to places with lots of players we have to go a long way, Illinois being the closest. Then you start going south and east from there.
4) Our problem last year was that the kids in the state were too good. We generally hold our own fine in-state versus other B1G programs, with the possible exception of MSU, where we have also been outworked. When we start having great players with the hoops equivalents of helmet schools all over them it is a lot harder when they have seen ten years of mediocrity from the program.
5) I don't think it is accurate to conclude Anim or Wilson are misses until that is proven. Having an opinion is fine, but concluding there were 4 academically eligible B1G level talents in-state this year is not supported by evidence (e.g. offers from multiple B1G level programs), yet anyway.
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I think the remoteness from big recruiting areas hurts the most, looking at 2016 as an example states like Arizona, Oregon, Oklahoma, Kansas, or Arkansas produce talent similar to Minnesota, most of those states are close to big recruiting areas though like California or Texas or in Kansas's case being a blue blood even though it doesn't have a big recruiting base.
 

jovs said:
I think the remoteness from big recruiting areas hurts the most, looking at 2016 as an example states like Arizona, Oregon, Oklahoma, Kansas, or Arkansas produce talent similar to Minnesota, most of those states are close to big recruiting areas though like California or Texas or in Kansas's case being a blue blood even though it doesn't have a big recruiting base.
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Chicago is in our backyard. The handling of Ellis and Foster didn't help. Going forward, I don't think recruiting will be a problem as long as we stop being dependent on spring recruits. Next season can't be fixed. Bite the bullet and bring in another top 30 class this fall.
 

corcoran1 said:
2) Dividing the number of recruits in a state by the number of programs to calculate and adjusted recruiting competitiveness comparison number sounds fair. But in some states e.g. Indiana with three B1G quality programs that would seem to make our odds seem more reasonable, but not Ohio which has one, or PA which has maybe 1 and that would be Pitt. Illinois has one, Iowa which produces similar numbers to us has two. The fact is that the states like Illinois with low numbers of high programs are targets for every other surrounding state program and national power programs
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Illinois has Illinois, and Northwestern at the high major and then a ton of mid-major programs that split the 2nd tier (Bradley, northern ill, southern Ill. ill st... more i think)

Ohio has Cincinati(BIG East), OSU and Xavier who are comparable to UMN. and then a ton of mid majors like Dayton, Akron, Kent st. and plenty more D1 schools that are worse.

Pennsylvania you missed their best team in Villinova, then there's Pitt and Penn State. then there's temple, drexel, lehigh, st. joesephs, and plenty plenty more lower level D1 schools.
 


Tim1406 said:
Illinois has Illinois, and Northwestern at the high major and then a ton of mid-major programs that split the 2nd tier (Bradley, northern ill, southern Ill. ill st... more i think)

Ohio has Cincinati(BIG East), OSU and Xavier who are comparable to UMN. and then a ton of mid majors like Dayton, Akron, Kent st. and plenty more D1 schools that are worse.

Pennsylvania you missed their best team in Villinova, then there's Pitt and Penn State. then there's temple, drexel, lehigh, st. joesephs, and plenty plenty more lower level D1 schools.
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Illinois also has DePaul.
 


howieramone said:
Chicago is in our backyard. The handling of Ellis and Foster didn't help. Going forward, I don't think recruiting will be a problem as long as we stop being dependent on spring recruits. Next season can't be fixed. Bite the bullet and bring in another top 30 class this fall.
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As far as recruiting goes, Chicago is most definitely NOT in our backyard. Between here and Chicago, a recruit has the following "backyards" that are closer, and in some cases, much closer: Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Marquette, Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame, Iowa, Iowa State, Northern Iowa, Ohio State, Xavier, Cinci, and that is just off the top of my head, and those are just naming the programs that have had at least equal (and in most cases much more) postseason success than we have. And I can't imagine a single person of influence in the Chicago AAU scene that has thought twice about the way things worked out for Foster and Minnesota. Alex wanted to play for Tubby and he still had that opportunity. He said so himself.

Go Gophers!!
 

Chicago is Only 450 Miles Away

BleedGopher said:
As far as recruiting goes, Chicago is most definitely NOT in our backyard. Between here and Chicago, a recruit has the following "backyards" that are closer, and in some cases, much closer: Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Marquette, Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame, Iowa, Iowa State, Northern Iowa, Ohio State, Xavier, Cinci, and that is just off the top of my head, and those are just naming the programs that have had at least equal (and in most cases much more) postseason success than we have. And I can't imagine a single person of influence in the Chicago AAU scene that has thought twice about the way things worked out for Foster and Minnesota. Alex wanted to play for Tubby and he still had that opportunity. He said so himself.

Go Gophers!!
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I think the site was called Chicago Hoops. They had a blow by blow description of the Ellis and Foster fiasco. Coach Dutcher, Clem the Gem, and Orlando early on, had no major problems recruiting. Coach P. and staff have had 17 scholarships to work with in 2 years. I personally don't care where they get them, as long as they don't keep loading up on spring recruits.
 



howieramone said:
I think the site was called Chicago Hoops. They had a blow by blow description of the Ellis and Foster fiasco. Coach Dutcher, Clem the Gem, and Orlando early on, had no major problems recruiting. Coach P. and staff have had 17 scholarships to work with in 2 years. I personally don't care where they get them, as long as they don't keep loading up on spring recruits.
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Spring recruits to the effect of Rashad Vaughn I don't mind. There are plenty like him who don't commit until the spring(actually he was winter wasn't he). It depends the quality of player and you're right its most often that you're going to get better players, on average, if you get them to commit earlier(unless you're kentucky). Point is just see what we get and hope we can get a few top 7 BIG recruiting classes in a row. That'd help push us up to the top of the conference slowly but surely.
 

We got 4 great Fall recruits this cycle and are after some really good spring guys (ie 4-star and high 3-star). Until we sign a horrible spring recruit I don't want to hear about it. Pitino has signed one poor spring recruit (out of desperation to fill a roster), Joey King. And even King has been serviceable for the most part.
 

howieramone said:
I think the site was called Chicago Hoops. They had a blow by blow description of the Ellis and Foster fiasco. Coach Dutcher, Clem the Gem, and Orlando early on, had no major problems recruiting. Coach P. and staff have had 17 scholarships to work with in 2 years. I personally don't care where they get them, as long as they don't keep loading up on spring recruits.
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You are rewriting history. Even Dutcher - who eventually became a very good recruiter, got not much his first two classes. McHale was not that highly regarded and got schooled in the state HS tourney by Lingenfelter, some thought Lingenfelter (who eventually transferred in) was better.

Recruits:
Dutcher Year 1- Gus Johnson (transfer), Chris Weber, Bill Zagar, Year 2: Kevin McHale, Tommy Lewis, Ricky Wallace
Haskins Year 1 - Connel Lewis, Coffey, Terrance Williams Year 2: Erik Wilson, Marlon Maxey, K Lynch, Walter Bond
Monson Year 1- Ryan Wildenborg, Year 2 Tavaris Bennert (juco), Kerwin Flemming (juco)
Tubby Year 1- none Year 2- Iverson, sampson, Bostick, Carter, Joseph
Pitino - Year 1: Matheui, King, McNeil...Year 2: Mason, Konate, Gaston, Lofton, Martin

At this point I'd say Pitino's first two classes rank at or better than any of them- although the jury is out.
 

MadtownGopher said:
We got 4 great Fall recruits this cycle and are after some really good spring guys (ie 4-star and high 3-star). Until we sign a horrible spring recruit I don't want to hear about it. Pitino has signed one poor spring recruit (out of desperation to fill a roster), Joey King. And even King has been serviceable for the most part.
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Do poor and serviceable go together? Joey is not an All B1G player and plays out of position, but has been a good player and works hard. Given the circumstances the team was in when he arrived, I would take a guy like him any time. I'm way more concerned with the "miss" on not reading Martin's personality well enough to know he would pout instead of try to learn. It happens, of course, but the ramifications with that could be more long lasting than any spring recruit so far.
 



bga1 said:
You are rewriting history. Even Dutcher - who eventually became a very good recruiter, got not much his first two classes. McHale was not that highly regarded and got schooled in the state HS tourney by Lingenfelter, some thought Lingenfelter (who eventually transferred in) was better.

Recruits:
Dutcher Year 1- Gus Johnson (transfer), Chris Weber, Bill Zagar, Year 2: Kevin McHale, Tommy Lewis, Ricky Wallace
Haskins Year 1 - Connel Lewis, Coffey, Terrance Williams Year 2: Erik Wilson, Marlon Maxey, K Lynch, Walter Bond
Monson Year 1- Ryan Wildenborg, Year 2 Tavaris Bennert (juco), Kerwin Flemming (juco)
Tubby Year 1- none Year 2- Iverson, sampson, Bostick, Carter, Joseph
Pitino - Year 1: Matheui, King, McNeil...Year 2: Mason, Konate, Gaston, Lofton, Martin

At this point I'd say Pitino's first two classes rank at or better than any of them- although the jury is out.
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It's important to note that, in those first couple years, Clem recruited four men who would go on to play in the NBA. That ain't bad. In fact, that rocks - especially compared to what we've been getting lately.
 

bga1 said:
You are rewriting history. Even Dutcher - who eventually became a very good recruiter, got not much his first two classes. McHale was not that highly regarded and got schooled in the state HS tourney by Lingenfelter, some thought Lingenfelter (who eventually transferred in) was better.

Recruits:
Dutcher Year 1- Gus Johnson (transfer), Chris Weber, Bill Zagar, Year 2: Kevin McHale, Tommy Lewis, Ricky Wallace
Haskins Year 1 - Connel Lewis, Coffey, Terrance Williams Year 2: Erik Wilson, Marlon Maxey, K Lynch, Walter Bond
Monson Year 1- Ryan Wildenborg, Year 2 Tavaris Bennert (juco), Kerwin Flemming (juco)
Tubby Year 1- none Year 2- Iverson, sampson, Bostick, Carter, Joseph
Pitino - Year 1: Matheui, King, McNeil...Year 2: Mason, Konate, Gaston, Lofton, Martin

At this point I'd say Pitino's first two classes rank at or better than any of them- although the jury is out.
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Hardly. You're drinking kool aid.
 


Bad Gopher said:
It's important to note that, in those first couple years, Clem recruited four men who would go on to play in the NBA. That ain't bad. In fact, that rocks - especially compared to what we've been getting lately.
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Bad- the thing is- you know the end of that story, so you know how it comes out for Clem's guys. With Pitino's year 2 story- you don't know that. Bond, Lynch, Coffey and Maxey were all on the fringe NBA wise but did develop into really solid college players. I promise you, none of them outside of possibly Lynch looked like they had a prayer of every stepping on an NBA court after year 2. I loved Clem as a coach, by the way.
 

bga1 said:
You are rewriting history. Even Dutcher - who eventually became a very good recruiter, got not much his first two classes. McHale was not that highly regarded and got schooled in the state HS tourney by Lingenfelter, some thought Lingenfelter (who eventually transferred in) was better.

Recruits:
Dutcher Year 1- Gus Johnson (transfer), Chris Weber, Bill Zagar, Year 2: Kevin McHale, Tommy Lewis, Ricky Wallace
Haskins Year 1 - Connel Lewis, Coffey, Terrance Williams Year 2: Erik Wilson, Marlon Maxey, K Lynch, Walter Bond
Monson Year 1- Ryan Wildenborg, Year 2 Tavaris Bennert (juco), Kerwin Flemming (juco)
Tubby Year 1- none Year 2- Iverson, sampson, Bostick, Carter, Joseph
Pitino - Year 1: Matheui, King, McNeil...Year 2: Mason, Konate, Gaston, Lofton, Martin

At this point I'd say Pitino's first two classes rank at or better than any of them- although the jury is out.
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Interesting summary. Is the "Year 1" for each of these situations a similar time frame? In other words, only the spring signing period prior to each respective coach's first year on the court?
 

Winasota Gopher said:
LMAO at King being described as our poor spring recruit....
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You are happy with that level of recruit? Soft, timid, unatletic, low ceiling player that takes up 3 years of a scholarship? I understand why Pitino took him when he did, but I hope we never have another recruit like him. Especially at the 4-position.
 

MadtownGopher said:
You are happy with that level of recruit? Soft, timid, unatletic, low ceiling player that takes up 3 years of a scholarship? I understand why Pitino took him when he did, but I hope we never have another recruit like him. Especially at the 4-position.
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Given the circumstances... Yes, extremely happy. Where would we be without King? Who else was he going to get in that situation? Timid? Please... Soft? I'll give you that, but it's not because of a lack of effort.

I don't think King is our worst Spring recruit, and it's not even close. McNeil, Lofton, Morris, Gaston, Konate, Smith have all accomplished far less. I'm assuming you not mentioning Gaston or Konate is that you're buying into the potential of those recruits as both are equally timid and equally soft at the moment.

Lets talk in 3 years and see who had a better Gopher career, Gaston or King... I hope I'm wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting any of these guys are bad spring recruits 'per say', I just find it funny that you said we've only had one... And you named, arguably, the best one.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
Given the circumstances... Yes, extremely happy. Where would we be without King? Who else was he going to get in that situation? Timid? Please... Soft? I'll give you that, but it's not because of a lack of effort.

I don't think King is our worst Spring recruit, and it's not even close. McNeil, Lofton, Morris, Gaston, Konate, Smith have all accomplished far less. I'm assuming you not mentioning Gaston or Konate is that you're buying into the potential of those recruits as both are equally timid and equally soft at the moment.

Lets talk in 3 years and see who had a better Gopher career, Gaston or King... I hope I'm wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting any of these guys are bad spring recruits 'per say', I just find it funny that you said we've only had one... And you named, arguably, the best one.
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Lofton didn't eat up a scholarship for 3 years, though I was never a fan of going after him. McNeil was unfortunate because of the domestic abuse thing, I'll give you that. I wasn't totally considering him a spring recruit though because he was a mid to high 3 star who committed to Pitino in the fall when he was at FIU. Malik was much more up and down than King with his highs being great and his lows being embarrassing but at the end of the day he was a one season rental when we had scholarships to burn. Morris is about the same level as King, though he has upside if he can become a more efficient player. He is also only a 2 year scholarship.

Jury is out on Gaston and BK but they at least have physical and athletic upside that fit Pitino's system. They can also rebound which is mandatory requirement for 4's and 5's. King is the worst rebounding 6'8-6'9 player I've ever seen.
 

MadtownGopher said:
Lofton didn't eat up a scholarship for 3 years, though I was never a fan of going after him. McNeil was unfortunate because of the domestic abuse thing, I'll give you that. I wasn't totally considering him a spring recruit though because he was a mid to high 3 star who committed to Pitino in the fall when he was at FIU. Malik was much more up and down than King with his highs being great and his lows being embarrassing but at the end of the day he was a one season rental when we had scholarships to burn. Morris is about the same level as King, though he has upside if he can become a more efficient player. He is also only a 2 year scholarship.
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How about Mav. vs. King. I'd argue King already has had a better career...
 


MadtownGopher said:
Lofton didn't eat up a scholarship for 3 years, though I was never a fan of going after him. McNeil was unfortunate because of the domestic abuse thing, I'll give you that. I wasn't totally considering him a spring recruit though because he was a mid to high 3 star who committed to Pitino in the fall when he was at FIU. Malik was much more up and down than King with his highs being great and his lows being embarrassing but at the end of the day he was a one season rental when we had scholarships to burn. Morris is about the same level as King, though he has upside if he can become a more efficient player. He is also only a 2 year scholarship.
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So.... like I said, quite odd that you singled out King when there are a litany of other examples of spring recruits not contributing much.

I say continue to fill the roster with Fall guys, the hit/miss ratio seems to be much better.

Lets not derail this thread. This conversation has been had many times, and there are a lot of people that agree with you, so it's not like you're way out in left field here. (Still wrong ;) )
 

Actually the way King shot in the BIG tournament... you really can't complain. Much better than Dahlman ever did in EL. Sometimes recruits don't work out but you think for one instance that King wouldn't be used to the maximum at Wisc. or MSU(probably off the bench) then you're out of your mind.
 





Tim1406 said:
So we're saying that the worst spring recruit Pitino has had will be a 3 year starter...
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Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.

And it's not like he's been successful in that role. Easily the worst starting PF in my brief history of Gopher fandom (11 years).
 

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