All Things 2022 Minnesota Twins In-Season Thread

golfing18now

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They had no one to sell. Or are you saying they should do a complete rebuild? Because that would be insane. Two of three additions will be around next year. So not a big deal if they don’t go anywhere this year.

Agreed. Absolutely ridiculous to entertain the idea of a complete rebuild this year while sitting in first place in your division. The ongoing negativity towards the front office of this team is tired and lazy, in my view. Frankly, they have not acted like their own reputation would suggest. That isn't to say all the moves have worked out as hoped.
  1. They were extremely aggressive before the season started in acquiring Urshela, Sanchez, Paddock, and Pagan. Urshela and Sanchez have been solid. Paddock has been injured. Pagan has been horrible. They succeeded in getting rid of Donaldson's contract. Garver is out for the year. Rogers has been terrible for the Padres before getting traded. Rohrvedt is not a major league caliber player. They sent money to the Padres to play some of Rodgers salary. You can argue none of these moves were hugely impactful for any of the teams involved but I still don't dislike any of the moves today.
  2. They were willing to send away one of their elite prospects in the offseason to bring back a top end starter in Sonny Gray. The ink won't be dry on this one for awhile but I still like the move.
  3. They signed the biggest free agent on the board in Correa in a very team friendly contract in terms of length and dollars. If he does opt out after the year, he kept the seat warm for the organization's top prospect. If he doesn't opt out, you have an elite player at shortstop and will need to figure something out for Lewis. This was always going to be a win unless Correa fell off the map or got injured.
  4. They were hyper aggressive yesterday in adding three/four players in areas of need and gave up a number of prospects in un-Twins like fashion but did manage to not give away any of their current big league talent or from their elite prospect tier. They added a couple guys that will help them next year in the process.
The problem this year has been a lack of production from many proven major league players (Sano/Kepler/Polanco/Jeffries), a shoddy bullpen, and an unbelievable number of injuries. It hasn't been because of a "cheap" front office.

All that being said, I still prefer the Twins approach this year over the White Sox and Guardians. You try to get into the playoffs and at least get the losing streak monkey off your back and go from there.
 

GophersInIowa

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Archer 73 1/3 innings over 18 starts is basically 4 innings a start. It is just too much to continually ask the bullpen to get 12 to 15 outs every 5 days when they are asked to get 9-12 outs every other day of the week. It’s a war of attrition and it’s getting to the twins. Hopefully the top 3 starters can get things going and get through 6 each time but I doubt it. The worst part is they could have teamed up archer with winder every 5th day and have wonder either start or come in in the 5th inning to pitch 3 innings, but that plan is gone.
If Winder were healthy, I'd have him start games and put Archer in the bullpen to possibly piggy back off of him.
 

GophersInIowa

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Agreed. Absolutely ridiculous to entertain the idea of a complete rebuild this year while sitting in first place in your division. The ongoing negativity towards the front office of this team is tired and lazy, in my view. Frankly, they have not acted like their own reputation would suggest. That isn't to say all the moves have worked out as hoped.
  1. They were extremely aggressive before the season started in acquiring Urshela, Sanchez, Paddock, and Pagan. Urshela and Sanchez have been solid. Paddock has been injured. Pagan has been horrible. They succeeded in getting rid of Donaldson's contract. Garver is out for the year. Rogers has been terrible for the Padres before getting traded. Rohrvedt is not a major league caliber player. They sent money to the Padres to play some of Rodgers salary. You can argue none of these moves were hugely impactful for any of the teams involved but I still don't dislike any of the moves today.
  2. They were willing to send away one of their elite prospects in the offseason to bring back a top end starter in Sonny Gray. The ink won't be dry on this one for awhile but I still like the move.
  3. They signed the biggest free agent on the board in Correa in a very team friendly contract in terms of length and dollars. If he does opt out after the year, he kept the seat warm for the organization's top prospect. If he doesn't opt out, you have an elite player at shortstop and will need to figure something out for Lewis. This was always going to be a win unless Correa fell off the map or got injured.
  4. They were hyper aggressive yesterday in adding three/four players in areas of need and gave up a number of prospects in un-Twins like fashion but did manage to not give away any of their current big league talent or from their elite prospect tier. They added a couple guys that will help them next year in the process.
The problem this year has been a lack of production from many proven major league players (Sano/Kepler/Polanco/Jeffries), a shoddy bullpen, and an unbelievable number of injuries. It hasn't been because of a "cheap" front office.

All that being said, I still prefer the Twins approach this year over the White Sox and Guardians. You try to get into the playoffs and at least get the losing streak monkey off your back and go from there.
Overall I think they've done a solid job. They've made some very good trades. Certainly not as bad as some like to make them out to be. And yes, they're finally being aggressive, although the negative nancies will still call them non-impact moves because it's convenient to do that instead of admitting they were wrong about them not making moves.

My two complaints would be 1) they haven't been able to develop starting pitching (a theme of this organization for several decades) and 2) if they are going to use the strategy of pulling starters early to avoid the 3rd time through the order (which does make some sense), then you have to build a much deeper and better bullpen.
 

forever a gopher

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If Winder were healthy, I'd have him start games and put Archer in the bullpen to possibly piggy back off of him.
Exactly. Archer is your long man in the bullpen. He has generally been pretty good through about 50 pitches. And then he often hits a brick wall and can't hit the strike zone. Happened again last night. I'm one of the loudest complaining about Rocco's insistence on pulling starters too early. But with Archer, you almost have to, as he self-implodes. They really need Winder or Smeltzer to get healthy. Archer would be a great 2 inning guy out of the pen during the late season push. Or your long man when you're up/down 8 runs so you don't blow your entire bullpen. As they currently sit, they don't really have that guy.
 

howeda7

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We should be selling and cleaning house not adding. The Twins are not going anywhere. At the most another one and done season. A division title means absolutely nothing. It is the same old story. They are to cheap to have any elite pitching. Other winning teams of the past the leaders were obvious. I can not name a leader of this team on the field and in the clubhouse. We will see.

Go Gophers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First, you can't sell when you're in first place unless you want to flip the bird to your entire fan base, the clubhouse and any future free agents. You just can't.

Second, they didn't have much to sell in terrms of expiring contracts. The idea that they should trade Correa for some great haul was silly. He's a rental.

Third, when you've lost 18 play-off games in a row, there is value in just getting there and winning a game and hopefully a series. No, they aren't going to win the World Series. Realistically, 6 of the 12 teams that will make the play-offs have little chance to win the World Series this year. It will be the Yankees or Dodgers most likely. Perhaps the Mets, Padres or Astros. That doesn't mean the other play-off contenders should all wave the white flag.
 


golfing18now

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Overall I think they've done a solid job. They've made some very good trades. Certainly not as bad as some like to make them out to be. And yes, they're finally being aggressive, although the negative nancies will still call them non-impact moves because it's convenient to do that instead of admitting they were wrong about them not making moves.

My two complaints would be 1) they haven't been able to develop starting pitching (a theme of this organization for several decades) and 2) if they are going to use the strategy of pulling starters early to avoid the 3rd time through the order (which does make some sense), then you have to build a much deeper and better bullpen.

I agree with both of your points in the second paragraph. Young, controllable, cheap, quality starting pitching is the goal but difficult to attain. I'm not necessarily annoyed they haven't gone in on a high cost starting pitcher in free agency due to injury risk and underperformance. The Corbin/Strasburg contracts in part led to the Washington Nationals fire sale yesterday. But you need some combination of Ober/Winder/Ryan/Paddock to lock down at least three of your starting slots with above average production. On your second point, I do believe they are too locked into their own data analytics in not allowing starters to exceed two times through the lineup or even relievers throwing more than one inning.
 


GophersInIowa

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I agree with both of your points in the second paragraph. Young, controllable, cheap, quality starting pitching is the goal but difficult to attain. I'm not necessarily annoyed they haven't gone in on a high cost starting pitcher in free agency due to injury risk and underperformance. The Corbin/Strasburg contracts in part led to the Washington Nationals fire sale yesterday. But you need some combination of Ober/Winder/Ryan/Paddock to lock down at least three of your starting slots with above average production. On your second point, I do believe they are too locked into their own data analytics in not allowing starters to exceed two times through the lineup or even relievers throwing more than one inning.
Agreed. I don't think some people understand how hard it is for the Twins to attract top level pitching in free agency. We can deny it all we want, but pitchers hate the cold. Most times we would have to significantly out bid anyone else for a free agent pitcher. It's always going to be about developing and trading for starters.

Also agree on not allowing starters to go long enough. At the very least let the starter start the next inning and if he gets in trouble or even just allows one baserunner, have a reliever ready to go and make the move.
 

RealU

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Agreed. Absolutely ridiculous to entertain the idea of a complete rebuild this year while sitting in first place in your division. The ongoing negativity towards the front office of this team is tired and lazy, in my view. Frankly, they have not acted like their own reputation would suggest. That isn't to say all the moves have worked out as hoped.
  1. They were extremely aggressive before the season started in acquiring Urshela, Sanchez, Paddock, and Pagan. Urshela and Sanchez have been solid. Paddock has been injured. Pagan has been horrible. They succeeded in getting rid of Donaldson's contract. Garver is out for the year. Rogers has been terrible for the Padres before getting traded. Rohrvedt is not a major league caliber player. They sent money to the Padres to play some of Rodgers salary. You can argue none of these moves were hugely impactful for any of the teams involved but I still don't dislike any of the moves today.
  2. They were willing to send away one of their elite prospects in the offseason to bring back a top end starter in Sonny Gray. The ink won't be dry on this one for awhile but I still like the move.
  3. They signed the biggest free agent on the board in Correa in a very team friendly contract in terms of length and dollars. If he does opt out after the year, he kept the seat warm for the organization's top prospect. If he doesn't opt out, you have an elite player at shortstop and will need to figure something out for Lewis. This was always going to be a win unless Correa fell off the map or got injured.
  4. They were hyper aggressive yesterday in adding three/four players in areas of need and gave up a number of prospects in un-Twins like fashion but did manage to not give away any of their current big league talent or from their elite prospect tier. They added a couple guys that will help them next year in the process.
The problem this year has been a lack of production from many proven major league players (Sano/Kepler/Polanco/Jeffries), a shoddy bullpen, and an unbelievable number of injuries. It hasn't been because of a "cheap" front office.

All that being said, I still prefer the Twins approach this year over the White Sox and Guardians. You try to get into the playoffs and at least get the losing streak monkey off your back and go from there.
It's not unreasonable to have differing views of how the Twins should have approached the deadline. Being 6 games over .500 (at the deadline) and having a one game lead in the 2nd worst division in baseball is not enough evidence to suggest otherwise. I think some of your reasoning regarding injuries and underperforming mainstays in the lineup helped support the "sell" stance.

You can also throw in their poor baserunning and that since Wes left the team, the pitching has completely collapsed. Rocco has a couple of pitchers in Bundy and Archer that he simply cannot pitch when the order turns over for a 3rd time. His #1/#2 pitchers in Ryan and Gray have failed to pitch beyond 5 innings in 10 of their last 16 starts. Even when they are pitching well Rocco tends to stick to the analytics and pulls them, resulting in an overtaxed bullpen.

I didn't see anyone of note urging for an all-out rebuild, which I agree would be foolish considering the contract for Correa, trade for Gray and extension for Buxton this past offseason. It's clear the FO is in it to contend and with this current roster, they should be. However, I was in the camp to sell to bolster their assets for an "all-in" offseason. Maybe they put out feelers on veterans like Gray, Urshela, Correa, etc. and the proposed returns were underwhelming. We don't know what discucssions they had. To your point, I'm happy they picked a direction and didn't follow the White Sox/Guardians.

As far as your first point, while you support the trade for Pagan/Paddack, I think it's also fair to criticize the trade (and some did at the time). Trading Rogers and sending the Padres $6.6m for the best P in that deal seemed incorrect. Pagan has been a bust and despite Rogers imploding lately, he has still outperformed Pagan this year. For Paddack, even if didn't need his second TJ surgery, he appeared be a #4 starter at best.

Gary Sanchez has been largely below average this season. Defensively, he's a negative WAR player and lack of pitch framing (ranks 26th) does the pitching staff no favors. Offensively, his averages of .211/.275/.387 are all well below his career averages of .227/.312/.474. Over the last 2+ months, Sanchez is 26 for 139 (.187) with 48 strikeouts (34.5% K rate). Jeffers has been an upgrade over Sanchez but obviously Sanchez is the best bet with Jeffers injured. I agree with your points on 2-4, I would much rather they be aggressive in their gameplan then not.

As for the all-in offseason, it's time for the Pohlad's to up the ante, open the checkbook and spend closer to $170m at least for a season or two. I provided a link below that shows Twins revenues for anyone worried if they could still make ends meet or not. They could also likely fetch close to $1.5 billion if they decided to sell. Not a bad return on their father's $44m investment.

I would love to see them make a run at Willson Contreras in FA. If Correa bolts and the Angels decide to finally blow it up after years of futility with the games best player in Trout, put a competitive package together for 1 year of Ohtani and attempt to sign him to a massive extension. They likely get beat out by a team like the Dodgers but then shift focus to another bonafied #1 SP like Mclanahan with Tampa or Alcantara with the Marlins. I get both are extremely unlikely to be dealt given the team control/what appears to be an insanely team friendly deal for Alcantara but put offers together and make a run. If you can pull one off then it beats having to overpay for mediocre pitchers that largely underperform their multi-year contracts like Hughes, Nolasco, Santana (he was mostly solid), Pineda, Lynn etc. year after year.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/196669/revenue-of-the-minnesota-twins-since-2006/
 



short ornery norwegian

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If nothing else, this year's trade-deadline moves buy the Twins some time to figure out what is going on with their minor-league pitching prospects.

IF they can get guys like Winder, Canterino, Alcala, Balazovic etc healthy, then things look better going forward.

if those guys are not going to be healthy, or just don't pan out, then that might be the time to shell out some free-agent $$.
 


From the Parkinglot

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If nothing else, this year's trade-deadline moves buy the Twins some time to figure out what is going on with their minor-league pitching prospects.

IF they can get guys like Winder, Canterino, Alcala, Balazovic etc healthy, then things look better going forward.

if those guys are not going to be healthy, or just don't pan out, then that might be the time to shell out some free-agent $$.
That’s a good thing cause 2023 was looking scary with not a great farm system and very poor pitching, not to mention almost no chance Correa is back on the team next year. With the trades you didn’t give up any too prospects, of which the twins have almost none and you have players for next year too.
 

short ornery norwegian

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Twins Win. Lopez with his first save as a Twin.

hitting not great today, but managed to push four runs over the plate, and the pitching staff was solid - combined for 14 K with 1 BB.

bullpen had Fulmer, Thielbar, Duran and Lopez go 4 IP with 1 H, 1 BB and 5 K.
 



GopherVotary

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One game sample, but the bullpen additions look like they may make the late innings more comfortable for fans.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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That’s a good thing cause 2023 was looking scary with not a great farm system and very poor pitching, not to mention almost no chance Correa is back on the team next year. With the trades you didn’t give up any too prospects, of which the twins have almost none and you have players for next year too.

I don't buy this at all anymore. The moves the Twins have made set them up to be very competitive the rest of this season and next. Correa has been great defensively, but not spectacular offensively. What contender is going to give him a long term deal for 35+ million next season and beyond?

The Twins also don't have another SS ready to go. I think it's highly likely Correa is back next season. He can try to improve his numbers and get a longer term deal in a thinner FA class after next season.
 

GophersInIowa

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I don't buy this at all anymore. The moves the Twins have made set them up to be very competitive the rest of this season and next. Correa has been great defensively, but not spectacular offensively. What contender is going to give him a long term deal for 35+ million next season and beyond?

The Twins also don't have another SS ready to go. I think it's highly likely Correa is back next season. He can try to improve his numbers and get a longer term deal in a thinner FA class after next season.
100% agree.
 

GophersInIowa

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One game sample, but the bullpen additions look like they may make the late innings more comfortable for fans.
It’s amazing how quickly our bullpen has potentially gone from a disaster to a strength just from those two moves.
 

GophersInIowa

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It's not unreasonable to have differing views of how the Twins should have approached the deadline. Being 6 games over .500 (at the deadline) and having a one game lead in the 2nd worst division in baseball is not enough evidence to suggest otherwise. I think some of your reasoning regarding injuries and underperforming mainstays in the lineup helped support the "sell" stance.

You can also throw in their poor baserunning and that since Wes left the team, the pitching has completely collapsed. Rocco has a couple of pitchers in Bundy and Archer that he simply cannot pitch when the order turns over for a 3rd time. His #1/#2 pitchers in Ryan and Gray have failed to pitch beyond 5 innings in 10 of their last 16 starts. Even when they are pitching well Rocco tends to stick to the analytics and pulls them, resulting in an overtaxed bullpen.

I didn't see anyone of note urging for an all-out rebuild, which I agree would be foolish considering the contract for Correa, trade for Gray and extension for Buxton this past offseason. It's clear the FO is in it to contend and with this current roster, they should be. However, I was in the camp to sell to bolster their assets for an "all-in" offseason. Maybe they put out feelers on veterans like Gray, Urshela, Correa, etc. and the proposed returns were underwhelming. We don't know what discucssions they had. To your point, I'm happy they picked a direction and didn't follow the White Sox/Guardians.

As far as your first point, while you support the trade for Pagan/Paddack, I think it's also fair to criticize the trade (and some did at the time). Trading Rogers and sending the Padres $6.6m for the best P in that deal seemed incorrect. Pagan has been a bust and despite Rogers imploding lately, he has still outperformed Pagan this year. For Paddack, even if didn't need his second TJ surgery, he appeared be a #4 starter at best.

Gary Sanchez has been largely below average this season. Defensively, he's a negative WAR player and lack of pitch framing (ranks 26th) does the pitching staff no favors. Offensively, his averages of .211/.275/.387 are all well below his career averages of .227/.312/.474. Over the last 2+ months, Sanchez is 26 for 139 (.187) with 48 strikeouts (34.5% K rate). Jeffers has been an upgrade over Sanchez but obviously Sanchez is the best bet with Jeffers injured. I agree with your points on 2-4, I would much rather they be aggressive in their gameplan then not.

As for the all-in offseason, it's time for the Pohlad's to up the ante, open the checkbook and spend closer to $170m at least for a season or two. I provided a link below that shows Twins revenues for anyone worried if they could still make ends meet or not. They could also likely fetch close to $1.5 billion if they decided to sell. Not a bad return on their father's $44m investment.

I would love to see them make a run at Willson Contreras in FA. If Correa bolts and the Angels decide to finally blow it up after years of futility with the games best player in Trout, put a competitive package together for 1 year of Ohtani and attempt to sign him to a massive extension. They likely get beat out by a team like the Dodgers but then shift focus to another bonafied #1 SP like Mclanahan with Tampa or Alcantara with the Marlins. I get both are extremely unlikely to be dealt given the team control/what appears to be an insanely team friendly deal for Alcantara but put offers together and make a run. If you can pull one off then it beats having to overpay for mediocre pitchers that largely underperform their multi-year contracts like Hughes, Nolasco, Santana (he was mostly solid), Pineda, Lynn etc. year after year.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/196669/revenue-of-the-minnesota-twins-since-2006/
Again though, they really didn’t have anyone to sell. Trading away Correa wasn’t going to happen. Why trade away a guy like Gray? Next year appears to be the year to really try to make a run. Maeda, Ryan, Gray and Mahle is a top 10 staff. The bullpen will lose Fulmer potentially but Alcala will be back. I agree catcher is a weakness and wouldn’t mind trying to bring in a corner OF, especially if Kirilloff continues to have problems.

If Correa comes back and Maeda gets back to his old self, it could be a real fun season.
 

kg21

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Again though, they really didn’t have anyone to sell. Trading away Correa wasn’t going to happen. Why trade away a guy like Gray? Next year appears to be the year to really try to make a run. Maeda, Ryan, Gray and Mahle is a top 10 staff. The bullpen will lose Fulmer potentially but Alcala will be back. I agree catcher is a weakness and wouldn’t mind trying to bring in a corner OF, especially if Kirilloff continues to have problems.

If Correa comes back and Maeda gets back to his old self, it could be a real fun season.
I thought Correa has already said he's opting out.
 

From the Parkinglot

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I don't buy this at all anymore. The moves the Twins have made set them up to be very competitive the rest of this season and next. Correa has been great defensively, but not spectacular offensively. What contender is going to give him a long term deal for 35+ million next season and beyond?

The Twins also don't have another SS ready to go. I think it's highly likely Correa is back next season. He can try to improve his numbers and get a longer term deal in a thinner FA class after next season.
Do you really think in your heart of hearts that Correa is going to opt into his contract for next year? He may come back to the twins I would put it at 5.00%, but if he does it’ll mean they paid him a couple hundred million over 8 years. Now with the injury to Royce Lewis, I am sure Borras could do the same thing he did this year with Correa and have the twins offer him a new 1 year contract in order to buy Lewis (another client of his) time to rehab and be ready for 2024.

I agree the twins set themselves up well for 2023, which was not the case before the trading deadline. It will be interesting to see what value Arreaz gets next year in arbitration or if they sign him to a long term deal. He’s not a great defender, but may win a batting title. Does that mean he’l gets $120million over 7 years or is it more? That could be the difference between having money for Correa or not.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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Do you really think in your heart of hearts that Correa is going to opt into his contract for next year? He may come back to the twins I would put it at 5.00%, but if he does it’ll mean they paid him a couple hundred million over 8 years. Now with the injury to Royce Lewis, I am sure Borras could do the same thing he did this year with Correa and have the twins offer him a new 1 year contract in order to buy Lewis (another client of his) time to rehab and be ready for 2024.

I agree the twins set themselves up well for 2023, which was not the case before the trading deadline. It will be interesting to see what value Arreaz gets next year in arbitration or if they sign him to a long term deal. He’s not a great defender, but may win a batting title. Does that mean he’l gets $120million over 7 years or is it more? That could be the difference between having money for Correa or not.

Yes. Correa already has essentially a 1 year deal in place with the Twins for 35 million next season. Who's going to pay him more than that?
 

GophersInIowa

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I thought Correa has already said he's opting out.
No, I don’t think a player would ever announce something like that publicly during the season. I doubt the Twins know. And it’s likely Correa hasn’t decided either.

He still may opt out but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk like others think. It might work out better financially anyways to wait one more year.
 


kg21

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No, I don’t think a player would ever announce something like that publicly during the season. I doubt the Twins know. And it’s likely Correa hasn’t decided either.

He still may opt out but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk like others think. It might work out better financially anyways to wait one more year.
 

Gophers1992

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I don't buy this at all anymore. The moves the Twins have made set them up to be very competitive the rest of this season and next. Correa has been great defensively, but not spectacular offensively. What contender is going to give him a long term deal for 35+ million next season and beyond?

The Twins also don't have another SS ready to go. I think it's highly likely Correa is back next season. He can try to improve his numbers and get a longer term deal in a thinner FA class after next season.
Basically any of them.

FTR I'm not saying Correa is gone for sure, but he absolutely would get a lucrative long term deal on the open market this offseason.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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Basically any of them.

FTR I'm not saying Correa is gone for sure, but he absolutely would get a lucrative long term deal on the open market this offseason.

None of them did after last season, which was after a better season at the plate than he's currently having this season.
 


howeda7

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Basically any of them.

FTR I'm not saying Correa is gone for sure, but he absolutely would get a lucrative long term deal on the open market this offseason.
There are other players on the market this off-season that will get bigger deals. He may opt out because Scott Boras always goes to FA, but he's going to end up with a similar deal to the one he already has, or something like 5/$125. I think it's closer to 50/50 than 0 that he's back.
 

Gophers1992

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Correa is hitting .266 with 37 RBI. Compare his stats to pending free agent shortstops Trea Turner, Dansby Swanson and Xander Bogaerts. He's not getting 30 million plus long term after this season unless he gets hot the next two months.
Nobody uses batting average and RBI to evaluate players anymore.

That said your point remains that those guys are having better seasons than Correa. On the other hand Correa is younger than all those guys. He may not get more than 35/yr but he could get a longer term deal.

FWIW I have no idea one way or another if he's coming back. I really hope he does.
 

GophersInIowa

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This is just the writer stating his opinion. Correa has not officially said anything.
 




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