After Reading the Report Thoughts

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bizzle22 said:
And I'll say it for probably the tenth time...one of the players admitted that he heard her tell them to stop. There is no grey area there.
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Where in the report does it say this????????? I read the report, nowhere does it say this
 

citywok said:
God have the holiest damn mercy on my soul if I am ever represented in a court of law by Bob Loblaw.

Chiseling away at any part of her story that you can, like you have been consistently doing for the past 48 hours, and meek, shallow statements about how she likely regrets her behavior shows me that you actually don't have a whole lot of sympathy for her. You have been so, so far off on this story and so, so loud about it.
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Don't worry about it, you couldn't afford me. That said, I hope you never have to be represented by me either.

Tell me how I chiseled away at her story? I am asking you to define consent. That IS what this entire thing should be about. If she gave consent, this entire thing has been a travesty for the players. If she didn't give consent, those players should be kicked out and locked up for good. Yet, you think I am being sensitive when I have a discussion on CONSENT. The entire thing is about consent.
 

At risk of being dumped on for what I am going to post, I am not agreeing with the behaviors then or now, or saying that this is what happened at the U in September.

I read the entire 82 page report, but believe me, these "incidents", "occurrences" have been taking place around big time college athletics going back to my college years in the early '80's, and likely well before that. My knowledge of those occurrences came directly from participants who were players on big time D1 hockey teams (2). The 82 pages are eerily like what was described by my acquaintances back at that time. As far as I know, the occurrences were consensual and sought out by all involved parties.

At that time, at least at the school I attended, there where a GOOD number of women who's idolization and pursuit of relationships or relations with the athletes was painfully obvious ... in public...and on occasion, apparently was acted upon.... Apparently consensually. So it has been going on for a long time....With willing participants on both sides.

The behavior is not for me, but the key then, as it is now is consent. Was there consent? Was their not consent? Did it change from one to the other during?
 

Vandy said:
At risk of being dumped on for what I am going to post, I am not agreeing with the behaviors then or now, or saying that this is what happened at the U in September.

I read the entire 82 page report, but believe me, these "incidents", "occurrences" have been taking place around big time college athletics going back to my college years in the early '80's, and likely well before that. My knowledge of those occurrences came directly from participants who were players on big time D1 hockey teams (2). The 82 pages are eerily like what was described by my acquaintances back at that time. As far as I know, the occurrences were consensual and sought out by all involved parties.

At that time, at least at the school I attended, there where a GOOD number of women who's idolization and pursuit of relationships or relations with the athletes was painfully obvious ... in public...and on occasion, apparently was acted upon.... Apparently consensually. So it has been going on for a long time....With willing participants on both sides.

The behavior is not for me, but the key then, as it is now is consent. Was there consent? Was their not consent? Did it change from one to the other during?
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Don't ask a question like that! Citywok will accuse you of chiseling away at any part of the girl's story. I can't believe you would ask a question like that in a case about a sexual assault.
 


The best thing about threads like this one is that they provide the answers to the question, "which GopherHole posters should I put on ignore"? Very helpful.
 

GophersInIowa said:
This is pretty much where I stand as well. It appears some of the guys should be expelled while I think others it isn't as simple. My biggest issue all along with the lack of communication is that all 10 have been portrayed across the country as being rapists without knowing the truth. Not that any form of harassment is good either, but it isn't he same as raping someone.
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I think this is the biggest issue that the team had with the entire situation. No names or photographs should have been released until expedited hearings were held before whatever board acts upon the recommendations the EOAA made . This is where Kaler's and Coyle's conduct needs to be examined, along with lying that Claeys was on board with the suspensions.
 

citywok said:
An aside regarding the Empire text messages.
An uncomfortable reality is, there are probably 10,000 D1 college football players that espouse this culture and it doesn't just exist in Dinkytown.
Another uncomfortable reality is that people should probably acknowledge that Bierman is ultrasexed, including both males and females. This is a completely different reality from what the rest of us live in. And it has counterparts on college campuses all across the country.
This is a culture that lots have probably not wanted to acknowledge for awhile but maybe they should start being realistic. As fanbases across the country I think that lots of people have had some delusion, for years, that this is still supporting some sort of Wing-T & cardigan fantasy world, and they are "shocked!" when that is proven wrong.
This culture probably won't change until fanbases force it to change. And that isn't just a Dinkytown issue but one for all campuses. How and where does that change start? (probably with strong attempts at actual accountability, by EEEEEEVILLLLL entities such as EOAA, followed by real fanbase support for that accountability)

A related thought is that hopefully a lot of the "anti-PC crowd" can gain some higher understanding of what people mean when they say that "rape culture" exists and is an extremely pervasive and negative underlying thing in our society. Please open up your minds and make some new connections.
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This is absolutely spot on. You can be outraged and shocked by the act, but the language and attitudes, while offensive... don't think for a second these players are somehow uniquely evil. This is a societal issue, and it's only amplified among the athletically elite. Weren't there something like 10k condoms made freely available at the Olympics this summer? I'm sure those were only used by athletes 25 and up in monogomous, long-term relationships.
 

citywok said:
The way I see that, and the way this whole thing went down, is that she started out being interested in some sort of wild sexual encounter, but ended up getting steamrolled into a level 10 absolutely insane sexual encounter. That likely did not change in an instant but developed over a period of time, and her behavior actually reflected that for the most part.

Not that hard to understand, and there is plenty of room to have a lot of sympathy for her. Even though, yes, she is a deeply flawed participant in this mess. Unfortunately things are rarely cut so clearly and in my opinion you should up your support for her side of this event because it is the right thing to do. A massive amount of fault lies on the other side no matter what way you look at it.
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I think you nailed this as well. She seemed up for some wild stuff. That changed, and somebody of character should've noticed and stopped things. It clearly ended horribly. But honestly, you've got a bunch of guys who probably see stuff like this happen all the time: porn, to friends, and maybe even to them. They thought they hit the lotto with a seemingly willing paeticipant. Doesn't chamge the fact that it's clear to me an assault did happen at some point in this...and that's reprehensible.
 



Lakers612 said:
Where in the report does it say this????????? I read the report, nowhere does it say this
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From page 55:

A 12 entered A2 bedroom while AS was having vaginal sex with RS from on
top of her. The lights were turned off. RS saw A12 and then said, "I don't want to"
and "this is too many people" and "don't send people in here." RS repeatedly said that
she was in pain. A5 did not respond by stopping or changing his activities. A12
reported that it did not look like A5 was doing anything out of the ordinary with RS
A12 did not think tl1at RS . was trying to physically push AS away. A12 ultimately
concluded that "it didn't feel right , .. Sometimes it didn't seem like she was into it."
A12 left the bedroom after about twenty seconds.
 

Lakers612 said:
Where in the report does it say this????????? I read the report, nowhere does it say this
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A12's account on page 55 of the report (page 57 of the PDF)...

"A12 entered A2 bedroom while A5 was having vaginal sex with RS from on
top of her. The lights were turned off. RS saw A12 and then said, "I don't want to"
and "this is too many people" and "don't send people in here." RS repeatedly said that
she was in pain. A5 did not respond by stopping or changing his activities. A12
reported that it did not look like A5 was doing anything out of the ordinary with RS
A12 did not think that RS was trying to physically push A5 away. A12 ultimately
concluded that "it didn't feel right , .. Sometimes it didn't seem like she was into it."
A12 left the bedroom after about twenty seconds."

From further along it A12's account on the same page...

"At another point, these men were listening to A5 and RS engage in sexual contact from
outside of the bedroom. A12 recalled, "from the stuff she said, it didn't seem like she
was into it. She said something and [the men present] decided it was messed up . . . She said
something that made it seem like it wasn't the right thing to be doing. They told A2 to
get A5 out of the room. A2 said, 'no man, she straight.'" A12 does not recall what
RS said that caused this concern. RS later said something else that caused the men
concem. She possibly said, "don't send any more people in."
 

bizzle22 said:
A12's account on page 55 of the report (page 57 of the PDF)...

"A12 entered A2 bedroom while A5 was having vaginal sex with RS from on
top of her. The lights were turned off. RS saw A12 and then said, "I don't want to"
and "this is too many people" and "don't send people in here." RS repeatedly said that
she was in pain. A5 did not respond by stopping or changing his activities. A12
reported that it did not look like A5 was doing anything out of the ordinary with RS
A12 did not think that RS was trying to physically push A5 away. A12 ultimately
concluded that "it didn't feel right , .. Sometimes it didn't seem like she was into it."
A12 left the bedroom after about twenty seconds."

From further along it A12's account on the same page...

"At another point, these men were listening to A5 and RS engage in sexual contact from
outside of the bedroom. A12 recalled, "from the stuff she said, it didn't seem like she
was into it. She said something and [the men present] decided it was messed up . . . She said
something that made it seem like it wasn't the right thing to be doing. They told A2 to
get A5 out of the room. A2 said, 'no man, she straight.'" A12 does not recall what
RS said that caused this concern. RS later said something else that caused the men
concem. She possibly said, "don't send any more people in."
Click to expand...

Also (same page)...

"Witness-7 (football team member) reported the following: Witness-7 heard from someone
(who he could not recall) that RS had been saying "no" when A5 was alone in the room
with her."
 

bizzle22 said:
Also (same page)...

"Witness-7 (football team member) reported the following: Witness-7 heard from someone
(who he could not recall) that RS had been saying "no" when A5 was alone in the room
with her."
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Hearsay.

Assuming she said no, what did she say no to? Was it a particular sex act? If so, do the player comply and stop? Was it to sex at all? Was it part of some conversation during the sex?
 



zman said:
Maybe, maybe not. IF she violated the code of conduct does what happened after that negate the fact that she violated it as well? Seems like a double standard of enforcement.
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I agree you are disgusting
 

citywok said:
An aside regarding the Empire text messages.
An uncomfortable reality is, there are probably 10,000 D1 college football players that espouse this culture and it doesn't just exist in Dinkytown.
Another uncomfortable reality is that people should probably acknowledge that Bierman is ultrasexed, including both males and females. This is a completely different reality from what the rest of us live in. And it has counterparts on college campuses all across the country.
This is a culture that lots have probably not wanted to acknowledge for awhile but maybe they should start being realistic. As fanbases across the country I think that lots of people have had some delusion, for years, that this is still supporting some sort of Wing-T & cardigan fantasy world, and they are "shocked!" when that is proven wrong.
This culture probably won't change until fanbases force it to change. And that isn't just a Dinkytown issue but one for all campuses. How and where does that change start? (probably with strong attempts at actual accountability, by EEEEEEVILLLLL entities such as EOAA, followed by real fanbase support for that accountability)

A related thought is that hopefully a lot of the "anti-PC crowd" can gain some higher understanding of what people mean when they say that "rape culture" exists and is an extremely pervasive and negative underlying thing in our society. Please open up your minds and make some new connections.
Click to expand...

Great post. There's many factors at play, but a simple lack of morality in the individuals involved is the root of everything else that has happened.
 

MGGopher said:
I think you nailed this as well. She seemed up for some wild stuff. That changed, and somebody of character should've noticed and stopped things. It clearly ended horribly. But honestly, you've got a bunch of guys who probably see stuff like this happen all the time: porn, to friends, and maybe even to them. They thought they hit the lotto with a seemingly willing paeticipant. Doesn't chamge the fact that it's clear to me an assault did happen at some point in this...and that's reprehensible.
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If she was a willing participant, there was not assault.

If she changed her mind and withdrew consent or didn't give consent to some guys, it's reprehensible and those players should be arrested.

It's really difficult to tell what happened and multiple times in the report she was confused on what exactly happened.
 

justthefacts said:
From page 55:

A 12 entered A2 bedroom while AS was having vaginal sex with RS from on
top of her. The lights were turned off. RS saw A12 and then said, "I don't want to"
and "this is too many people" and "don't send people in here." RS repeatedly said that
she was in pain. A5 did not respond by stopping or changing his activities. A12
reported that it did not look like A5 was doing anything out of the ordinary with RS
A12 did not think tl1at RS . was trying to physically push AS away. A12 ultimately
concluded that "it didn't feel right , .. Sometimes it didn't seem like she was into it."
A12 left the bedroom after about twenty seconds.
Click to expand...
Another interpretation of this: she was having sex with a player alone in the room, A12 walked in thinking they would have a 3-some, she said "I don't want to" in reference to having sex with A12 while also having sex with A5.

So A12 left.

When he said "it didn't feel right, Sometimes it didn't seem like she was into it" ... He could be saying that she didn't want to have sex with multiple people at the same time
 

justthefacts said:
From page 55:

A 12 entered A2 bedroom while AS was having vaginal sex with RS from on
top of her. The lights were turned off. RS saw A12 and then said, "I don't want to"
and "this is too many people" and "don't send people in here." RS repeatedly said that
she was in pain. A5 did not respond by stopping or changing his activities. A12
reported that it did not look like A5 was doing anything out of the ordinary with RS
A12 did not think tl1at RS . was trying to physically push AS away. A12 ultimately
concluded that "it didn't feel right , .. Sometimes it didn't seem like she was into it."
A12 left the bedroom after about twenty seconds.
Click to expand...


The question is did anyone else have sex with her, she said no more people. I don't believe anyone else did. As I read it she didn't tell the one with her to stop, just said no more. It hurts is not saying stop, he changed position which is a rational response in my sexual experience.

It doesn't surprise me that no charges were filed.

Again doesn't mean it was right, but criminally gray or even not criminal.

I'm sorry but women's internal dialog when not expressed to those involved can paint a very different picture than what those involved saw. Her internal dialog is the bulk of the EOAA report.
 

The players admitted there wasn't consent. This is not he said she said anymore.

from page 55 of the report:
entered A2 bedroom while AS was having vaginal sex with RS from on
top of her. The lights were turned off. RS saw A12 and then said, "I don't want to"
and "this is too many people" and "don't send people in here." RS repeatedly said that
she was in pain. A5 did not respond by stopping or changing his activities. A12
reported that it did not look like A5 was doing anything out of the ordinary with RS
A12 did not think tl1at RS . was trying to physically push AS away. A12 ultimately
concluded that "it didn't feel right , .. Sometimes it didn't seem like she was into it."
A12 left the bedroom after about twenty seconds

At another point, these men were listening to A5 and RS engage in sexual contact from
outside of the bedroom. A12 recalled, "from the stuff she said, it didn't seem like she
was into it. She said something and [the men present] decided it was messed up . . . She said
something that made it. seem like it wasn't the right thing to be do
Click to expand...
 

Wally said:
The question is did anyone else have sex with her, she said no more people. I don't believe anyone else did. As I read it she didn't tell the one with her to stop, just said no more. It hurts is not saying stop, he changed position which is a rational response in my sexual experience.

It doesn't surprise me that no charges were filed.

Again doesn't mean it was right, but criminally gray or even not criminal.

I'm sorry but women's internal dialog when not expressed to those involved can paint a very different picture than what those involved saw. Her internal dialog is the bulk of the EOAA report.
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This is what I tried to say earlier in the thread.
 

One thing that I believe is being overlooked is the accuser's statement that between 10-20 players had intercourse with her. She saw 12 or more used condoms on the floor by the bed. It seems to me that this goes well beyond the original 5, yet so many on here seem to harp on the "innocent others". From my reading, it seems that only one or two players of the entire group didn't have sex with her. I believe that several guys who entered inside this woman are getting away with this simply because of her poor memory. That should not be forgotten or overlooked in this.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
If she was a willing participant, there was not assault.

If she changed her mind and withdrew consent or didn't give consent to some guys, it's reprehensible and those players should be arrested.

It's really difficult to tell what happened and multiple times in the report she was confused on what exactly happened.
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Completely agree with this. If at anytime she said no, they should be arrested and sitting in jail.
 

Seems to me the team knows what A12 meant by his comments. Without context or actual transcripts or video of the interviews we can't know what A12 was referring to. The investigator repeatedly injected her own interpretations of alleged words and actions into the report. A real trial would be far more in depth.

Again, a farcical process for labeling anyone a rapist. We are better than this.
 


WoodburyTim said:
All of these arguments are like arguing about the outcome of the book at the end of the each chapter. Speculation will always be present, but to assert that anyone is right or wrong here is incredibly premature.

-When the players got suspended, there was a here we go again with athletic department rapists
-Then we find out there is no criminal charges, the other side chimes in and says I told you it was BS
-Then the Restraining Orders, the other side was justified that these guys were in the wrong
-Restraining Orders dropped, players vindicated again
-Players suspended, back the other way
-Ugly EOAA report, nail in the coffin for the awful players

I figure that we are now about at the midpoint of this deal. Expect to see the pendulum to swingt several more times and I am sure at each point each side will proclaim righteousness.
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Exactly my thoughts. It's like in a courtroom drama or movie, prosecutor gives the final argument and you think my god, they are 100% guilty! Nothing could change my mind. And then the defense gives their closing statement and you swing the other way. We've only heard one side of the story.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


Pompous Elitist said:
Seems to me the team knows what A12 meant by his comments. Without context or actual transcripts or video of the interviews we can't know what A12 was referring to. The investigator repeatedly injected her own interpretations of alleged words and actions into the report. A real trial would be far more in depth.

Again, a farcical process for labeling anyone a rapist. We are better than this.
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The report was written by someone who was obviously not coming from an impartial, fact-finding, point of view.

Her internal thought process was littered throughout the report to explain the reason and rationale for her actions while the players alleged actions were just listed matter-of-factly.

For example, when they talk about her returning to A5's apartment, it details her rationale (wanting to find out what happens) and sort of blows off the fact that this is extremely unusual behavior for a victim of sexual assault (to willfully return to the apartment where the assault happened). That paragraph went to great lengths to explain the behavior. . . why? To counteract the fact that is unusual (and circumstantial evidence against her).

Now, when the players do thing, it's just listed.

The inclusion of the texts? That was nothing except character attacks. The fact that young guys talk about hooking up with women in extremely vulgar terms might disgust some people but it's not unusual at all and it is completely irrelevant as to if an assault happened.
 

Section2 said:
Exactly my thoughts. It's like in a courtroom drama or movie, prosecutor gives the final argument and you think my god, they are 100% guilty! Nothing could change my mind. And then the defense gives their closing statement and you swing the other way. We've only heard one side of the story.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It's like the people who watched Making a Murderer without googling the case.
 

Bob - with your legal background, I have a question for you. How can the woman not allow the EOAA to view the videos that the authorities were allowed to watch to base their decision? It seems to me that this was a crucial piece of evidence that was not looked at.
 

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