2024 MN High School Football thread

[disco]

Even if it were limited to pressure from club teams, why aren't parents telling the coaches to go pound sand and letting their kids play on what is deemed the lesser team? Youth sports is so far out of hand....

It's both club and high school. In many cases, not all, but many, they go hand in hand. The high school coaches know who is playing on the top club teams for some sports, and they aren't even looking at the kids playing on the lesser teams. Meaning if you want to play varsity, you better be dedicated year round to the sport. I do know some kids this has happened to with soccer.

Now on the flip side, you hear stories (I don't know anyone personally on this one) where you have club or development program coaches telling kids to skip the high school season if they want to get a scholarship. I don't know how prevalent this really is, but you do have a handful of top hockey players going into the USHL etc.

 

[disco]

I'd also add, if mom and dad tell the coach to pound sand, they're essentially sabotaging their kid's chances in some cases.

The amount of politics around youth/high school sports between associations, clubs and schools is insane. It exists in football too. Not to the extent of some other sports, but I promise you, it's there.

 

[BleedGopher]

Go Gophers!!

 

[Gopherwatcher]

I am aware of high school coaching staffs strongly suggesting to their prospective players that if they aren't playing year round, their chance of making the team, let alone actually playing, will be very low. The most reliable source was a bigger school volleyball program more or less telling a player they couldn't go out for basketball and expecting to make the volleyball team the following fall. The player is/was good at both sports. So it isn't necessarily the club, its the school coaching staffs.

Even if it were limited to pressure from club teams, why aren't parents telling the coaches to go pound sand and letting their kids play on what is deemed the lesser team? Youth sports is so far out of hand....

This practice is illegal according to MSHSL bylaws. It is called "undue influence". If a parent reported this to the MSHSL and it was investigated and found to be true, the school is fined. You cannot tell kids what sports they can't play and you can't force them to participate in off-season. You can't threaten playing time for it either. Now, you can set requirements that deal with things like being a "captain", but they can't influence making a team or playing time.

Here is the actual bylaw.

BYLAW 307.00 UNDUE INFLUENCE ON STUDENTS
1. It shall be a violation for any school representative to exert undue influence on students to participate on non-school teams or to participate in camps, clinics, open gym, captain’s practice or other activities. A School representative shall not require or demand participation in a camp or clinic or on a non-school team as a condition of membership for a school team.
2. An alleged violation will require a letter of inquiry from the League office. On the basis of the response from the member school to the letter of inquiry, the Board of Directors may choose to appoint a committee to conduct a full investigation. It shall be an obligation of the member school to cooperate with this investigating committee and to provide all information pertinent to the investigation.
3. Penalty A confirmed violation will result in a fine to the member school. A. On the first offense, the fine shall be $500. B. On the second offense, the fine shall be $750. C. On the third offense, the fine shall be $1,000.
4. Appeal All appeals by school representatives, including coaches, who have been found to be in violation of this bylaw shall be heard by an independent hearing officer at the local level.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

no question that HS kids are getting squeezed like never before. It's really an issue with the smaller schools where the top athletes get pulled in all different directions. Girls wind up having to choose or prioritize VB versus Basketball or Softball in the Summer. Boys get pulled between Legion Baseball, Summer Basketball leagues, 7-on-7 Football, etc. and then you have Wrestling and Hockey with their off-season programs.

I still see a fair number of small-school kids who are 3-sport athletes - but it's getting less common. a lot of kids do two sports because it's just too difficult to try and juggle the commitments to handle 3 sports between the in-season and off-season activity.

that is one way that football loses participation. for some kids, football is still their #1 sport. but if football is their #2 or #3 sport, it's tempting to drop football and spend more time on their favored sports - or drop football to avoid an injury that might cause them to miss the Winter or Spring sports seasons. and if their HS FB program is struggling, then it becomes "why go out for FB and risk injury when the team is just going to lose most of its games."

 

[disco]

This practice is illegal according to MSHSL bylaws. It is called "undue influence". If a parent reported this to the MSHSL and it was investigated and found to be true, the school is fined. You cannot tell kids what sports they can't play and you can't force them to participate in off-season. You can't threaten playing time for it either. Now, you can set requirements that deal with things like being a "captain", but they can't influence making a team or playing time.

Here is the actual bylaw.

BYLAW 307.00 UNDUE INFLUENCE ON STUDENTS
1. It shall be a violation for any school representative to exert undue influence on students to participate on non-school teams or to participate in camps, clinics, open gym, captain’s practice or other activities. A School representative shall not require or demand participation in a camp or clinic or on a non-school team as a condition of membership for a school team.
2. An alleged violation will require a letter of inquiry from the League office. On the basis of the response from the member school to the letter of inquiry, the Board of Directors may choose to appoint a committee to conduct a full investigation. It shall be an obligation of the member school to cooperate with this investigating committee and to provide all information pertinent to the investigation.
3. Penalty A confirmed violation will result in a fine to the member school. A. On the first offense, the fine shall be $500. B. On the second offense, the fine shall be $750. C. On the third offense, the fine shall be $1,000.
4. Appeal All appeals by school representatives, including coaches, who have been found to be in violation of this bylaw shall be heard by an independent hearing officer at the local level.

Oh, I'm SURE nothing untoward EVER happens. EVERYONE strictly follows the guidelines to a T.

 

[disco]

but if football is their #2 or #3 sport, it's tempting to drop football and spend more time on their favored sports - or drop football to avoid an injury that might cause them to miss the Winter or Spring sports seasons. and if their HS FB program is struggling, then it becomes "why go out for FB and risk injury when the team is just going to lose most of its games."

The other thing is investment. We talked about this as coaches all the time. One assistant asked "why do they have to miss football for fall hockey?" The answer was, because parents have literally invested thousands and thousands of dollars into hockey at that point. Year round training, camps, leagues and obviously, equipment.

Football is a pair of shoes, shoulder pads. mouthguard and a few hundred bucks to play. The sport with the monetary investment often gets priority.

 

[Gopherwatcher]

Oh, I'm SURE nothing untoward EVER happens. EVERYONE strictly follows the guidelines to a T.

Oh I am sure it's being abused, but if it's happening, it should be reported, or it will keep happening.

 

[disco]

Oh I am sure it's being abused, but if it's happening, it should be reported, or it will keep happening.

It's also probably just about impossible to prove or enforce.

 

[Word]

It's also probably just about impossible to prove or enforce.

Even if the high school coach is 100% on the up-and-up there's still the "keeping up with the Joneses" factor that can make a kid specialize. In fact I think that might be just as prevalent as high school coaches hinting at such a thing.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I would say that the pressure is the least in football at the bigger schools. Our coach pushes 2 and 3 sport athletes regularly.

I did hear that our 8th grade program has gone from 4 teams in 6th grade to 2 in 8th. Partly because kids know football can’t cut them in 9th grade and it all starts fresh with new coaches. They are focused on fall baseball and other sports that will cut in 9th grade.

 

[State of Football]

Byron was 4a second place next year

MSHSL is going to blow up when Moorhead ends up 6a

Will be sweet

Moorhead and 5A coaches are aware and thought it would occur last cycle. They’ve agreed to go to Moorhead and Moorhead travels to the cities in most sports. 4 times is agreed upon and Moorhead is prepared.

No idea how that impacts lower levels

 

[State of Football]

Happy first day of practice - except for teams playing Zero Week games. I believe there are a few Zero Week games this season, but so far, the various web sites have not posted complete 2024 schedules. as of now, the MN Football Hub is only showing 1 Zero Week game (Breck vs St. Anthony on Fri, 8/23).

MN Scores.net has not posted its schedules yet.

gee, wouldn't it be nice if the MN State High School League had a website where they could post all of the schedules? what a great idea, but it sounds like a lot of work, so we probably can't expect their poor, over-worked staff to even consider something like that.........

just checked - the Iowa State HS Athletic Association has full-season schedules on its website. it's a miracle.......

I believe there is a district of 9 player teams playing Zero Week too? There were more but Lake of the Woods and Laporte just dropped their schedule for the season

 

[Tommyboy]

Moorhead and 5A coaches are aware and thought it would occur last cycle. They’ve agreed to go to Moorhead and Moorhead travels to the cities in most sports. 4 times is agreed upon and Moorhead is prepared.

No idea how that impacts lower levels

MH will be be a lower level team in 6A

 

[State of Football]

MH will be be a lower level team in 6A

I was referring to 9th grade, B Squad and JV games.

 

[disco]

I would say that the pressure is the least in football at the bigger schools. Our coach pushes 2 and 3 sport athletes regularly.

I did hear that our 8th grade program has gone from 4 teams in 6th grade to 2 in 8th. Partly because kids know football can’t cut them in 9th grade and it all starts fresh with new coaches. They are focused on fall baseball and other sports that will cut in 9th grade.

Question on that - do they play 11 man football in 6th grade and below?
Because the LMAA (Wayzata, Mtka, Edina, Maple Grove, Hopkins, St Louis Park) plays 9 man through 6th grade, and plays 11 man in 7th and 8th.

So obviously, we have fewer teams because of larger rosters being needed for 11 man football. I think we went from 6 to 4 this year, and realistically, we could have had 3. It's one of the reasons I'm not coaching this year - there were more coaches than teams, which is a nice, and kind of unusual, problem to have.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Question on that - do they play 11 man football in 6th grade and below?
Because the LMAA (Wayzata, Mtka, Edina, Maple Grove, Hopkins, St Louis Park) plays 9 man through 6th grade, and plays 11 man in 7th and 8th.

So obviously, we have fewer teams because of larger rosters being needed for 11 man football. I think we went from 6 to 4 this year, and realistically, we could have had 3. It's one of the reasons I'm not coaching this year - there were more coaches than teams, which is a nice, and kind of unusual, problem to have.

All 11 man from at least 5th grade up. Not sure on 4th and below. I like the smaller rosters below 7th grade however.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Reminder to those that are considering being a football official. Register now and get connected with an association. Pay got a nice bump and will be pushed up over the next 5 years. Training meetings start this week.

Officiating | MSHSL

www.mshsl.org

The metro high schools have an agreement with local officials associations. Varsity football game up 22% to $120 in 2024, and grow over the 5 year contract to $145 in 2028. 9th, 10th and JV football games fees are $89 in 2024, and increase to $100 by for 2028.

 

[GophersInIowa]

There's so many positives of playing different sports. A coach trying to push specialization, especially at an early age, are potentially hurting the kids more than helping them.

 

[swede2]

This practice is illegal according to MSHSL bylaws. It is called "undue influence". If a parent reported this to the MSHSL and it was investigated and found to be true, the school is fined. You cannot tell kids what sports they can't play and you can't force them to participate in off-season. You can't threaten playing time for it either. Now, you can set requirements that deal with things like being a "captain", but they can't influence making a team or playing time.

Here is the actual bylaw.

BYLAW 307.00 UNDUE INFLUENCE ON STUDENTS
1. It shall be a violation for any school representative to exert undue influence on students to participate on non-school teams or to participate in camps, clinics, open gym, captain’s practice or other activities. A School representative shall not require or demand participation in a camp or clinic or on a non-school team as a condition of membership for a school team.
2. An alleged violation will require a letter of inquiry from the League office. On the basis of the response from the member school to the letter of inquiry, the Board of Directors may choose to appoint a committee to conduct a full investigation. It shall be an obligation of the member school to cooperate with this investigating committee and to provide all information pertinent to the investigation.
3. Penalty A confirmed violation will result in a fine to the member school. A. On the first offense, the fine shall be $500. B. On the second offense, the fine shall be $750. C. On the third offense, the fine shall be $1,000.
4. Appeal All appeals by school representatives, including coaches, who have been found to be in violation of this bylaw shall be heard by an independent hearing officer at the local level.

Illegal you say? I'm aghast that it would still happen. And some real teeth to those ramifications.

 

[GopherPoke]

Most coaches I know understand what makes an athlete, and it's not specialization. I think you see parents pushing specialization a lot more than coaches. Got to get that scholarship.

 

[disco]

There's so many positives of playing different sports. A coach trying to push specialization, especially at an early age, are potentially hurting the kids more than helping them.

Most coaches I know understand what makes an athlete, and it's not specialization. I think you see parents pushing specialization a lot more than coaches. Got to get that scholarship.

I don't know. We had kids miss football GAMES for hockey TRYOUTS, basically being told, "this is your tryout time - it's not negotiable, and if you don't show up, you're on the bottom team."

That's driven by the associations and the coaches. Not the parents.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I don't know. We had kids miss football GAMES for hockey TRYOUTS, basically being told, "this is your tryout time - it's not negotiable, and if you don't show up, you're on the bottom team."

That's driven by the associations and the coaches. Not the parents.

I don't have kids old enough yet to worry about any of this but from the little I hear and see, it seems there are certain sports that we see the "need" to specialize in more than others. Sports like hockey, gymnastics and swimming.

If I'm a football coach especially, I want the kids playing as many other sports as they can.

 

[GopherPoke]

I don't know. We had kids miss football GAMES for hockey TRYOUTS, basically being told, "this is your tryout time - it's not negotiable, and if you don't show up, you're on the bottom team."

That's driven by the associations and the coaches. Not the parents.

I don't doubt that one bit. I would say it is more on the associations than it is coaches, though. On the base level, who are associations? In my experience, they are the parents or former parents who feel the need to be in control. One guys opinion.

 

[DinkytownDelight]

Most coaches I know understand what makes an athlete, and it's not specialization. I think you see parents pushing specialization a lot more than coaches. Got to get that scholarship.

no question that HS kids are getting squeezed like never before. It's really an issue with the smaller schools where the top athletes get pulled in all different directions. Girls wind up having to choose or prioritize VB versus Basketball or Softball in the Summer. Boys get pulled between Legion Baseball, Summer Basketball leagues, 7-on-7 Football, etc. and then you have Wrestling and Hockey with their off-season programs.

I still see a fair number of small-school kids who are 3-sport athletes - but it's getting less common. a lot of kids do two sports because it's just too difficult to try and juggle the commitments to handle 3 sports between the in-season and off-season activity.

that is one way that football loses participation. for some kids, football is still their #1 sport. but if football is their #2 or #3 sport, it's tempting to drop football and spend more time on their favored sports - or drop football to avoid an injury that might cause them to miss the Winter or Spring sports seasons. and if their HS FB program is struggling, then it becomes "why go out for FB and risk injury when the team is just going to lose most of its games."

Our top 2 recruits, Koi Perich (football, basketball, and track & field) and Riley Sunram (football, basketball, and track & field) were both not only three sport athletes, but as you'd imagine excelled in all of the sports they competed in. If you are good schools will find you!

 

[disco]

Certainly some associations cooperate better with different sports than others. In my opinion, hockey is the worst. Soccer isn't much better. I don't have a daughter, but I've heard volleyball is pretty bad that way. Basketball tends to be good and not step on fall sports in my experience.

 

[disco]

Our top 2 recruits, Koi Perich (football, basketball, and track & field) and Riley Sunram (football, basketball, and track & field) were both not only three sport athletes, but as you'd imagine excelled in all of the sports they competed in. If you are good schools will find you!

Those two went to tiny, tiny high schools. Lot more multi-sport athletes in that situation than you'd see at giant suburban schools.

 

[GopherPoke]

Certainly some associations cooperate better with different sports than others. In my opinion, hockey is the worst. Soccer isn't much better. I don't have a daughter, but I've heard volleyball is pretty bad that way. Basketball tends to be good and not step on fall sports in my experience.

Yep. There is zero reason groups cannot cooperate and find common ground on tryouts, etc. People who know better, know that this would only benefit their group/organization in the long run. Being a pain in the ass organization does a disservice to all who want to be a part of it.

 

[DinkytownDelight]

Those two went to tiny, tiny high schools. Lot more multi-sport athletes in that situation than you'd see at giant suburban schools.

Top 7 Recruits in the state of Minnesota in 2024:

Koi Perich 1st overall (3 sport athlete) was in 3A--do we really consider 3A schools tiny, tiny high schools?
Emerson Mandell--Wisconsin (2nd overall recruit in state): Football & Track at Irondale (5A)
Wyatt Gilmore--OU (3rd overall recruit in state): Football, basketball, and Track at Rogers (5A)
Mason Carrier--Gophers (4th overall recruit in state): football, basketball, and track (4A)
Jide Abasari--USC (5th overall): football, wrestling, and track (6A)
Kene Anene--Kansas (6th overall): football and track (6A)
Simon Seidl--Gophers (7th overall: football, hockey, and Track (4A)

If this list shows anything, it confirms you don't need to specialize no matter what size of school you go to. It may show though that if you want to be a great football player you should strongly consider track and field in the offseason!

 

[Word]

Top 7 Recruits in the state of Minnesota in 2024:

Koi Perich 1st overall (3 sport athlete) was in 3A--do we really consider 3A schools tiny, tiny high schools?
Emerson Mandell--Wisconsin (2nd overall recruit in state): Football & Track at Irondale (5A)
Wyatt Gilmore--OU (3rd overall recruit in state): Football, basketball, and Track at Rogers (5A)
Mason Carrier--Gophers (4th overall recruit in state): football, basketball, and track (4A)
Jide Abasari--USC (5th overall): football, wrestling, and track (6A)
Kene Anene--Kansas (6th overall): football and track (6A)
Simon Seidl--Gophers (7th overall: football, hockey, and Track (4A)

If this list shows anything, it confirms you don't need to specialize no matter what size of school you go to. It may show though that if you want to be a great football player you should strongly consider track and field in the offseason!

Only one hockey player on the list and zero soccer players, which confirms what some were saying about those 2 sports not playing well with others. Also no baseball. Sports like hockey, soccer, baseball, and tennis require a lot of specialized skills (to play at a really high level) which may explain why they those athletes don't play multiple sports. I don't think it's good but it is what it is.