2024 MN High School Football thread

[disco]

I believe (too short of time to look it up, going with what a buddy told me) that Wisconsin takes all of the .500 and better teams to playoffs. Looks at the school size of those teams and divides them equally into classes, so yes, not all teams know for sure what class they are in come playoff time. If a class is short a team they reach down and take the next best sub .500 team. Personally I like the idea, even if I have to admit it comes from sconny. We haven't seen an 8 seed in our area win a first round game since the early 2000s and that team was 4-4 and the section was poor that year. Let the playoffs be earned.

We know some people who coach in Wisconsin, and I think you described it pretty well from what I remember them telling me. I think it's a good system.

 

[GophersInIowa]

9 man is getting bigger because more schools that were traditionally 11 man teams and opting up for the past 15 years said we are not willing to play teams that should be in class 3A... Many teams in this state have moved to 9 man strictly to ensure that they are playing teams the same size as they are. Cant blame them for doing so, hard for a team of 30 to take a 2 hour bus ride and play a team with 45 JRs and SRs

Who would be an example of a school in this situation (should be in 3A but are playing 1A)? I'm assuming because of the free/reduced lunch calculation?

 

[Some guy]

Self scheduling problems is exactly why we have district football. The Lake conference fell to five teams at one point because teams refused to schedule Eden Prairie to the point they did a home and home with a team from Winnipeg.

Not to go around again on this discussion but the solution to Eden prairies problems shouldn’t have been to cause problems for dozens of schools

 

[GopherRock]

I have to think Buffalo would be growing. Still new construction out there.

Buffalo is going to keep growing because that district is massive, and it goes east to areas of Corcoran that the buildup from Maple Grove is finally pushing into.

 

[WoodburyTim]

So you lived in Coon Rapids and then graduated from Jefferson?

I only ask as my uncle taught at Jefferson and all my cousins went there as well, so that piqued my interest and my brother’s first house was in CR as well.
This was a scary Google ( from their website) -

Coon Rapids Senior High School is an above average, public school located in COON RAPIDS, MN. It has 2,167 students in grades 9-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 18 to 1. According to state test scores, 35% of students are at least proficient in math and 56% in reading.

Or

I’m conducting a Deep Dive on your alleged MN roots

35% are proficient in math. And they are an “above average” public school. Yikes

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

35% are proficient in math. And they are an “above average” public school. Yikes

I noticed that afterwards

 

[MaxyJR1]

Obviously the seeding is not tied to the rankings but pretty pathetic how it shook out in 6A

Maple Grove gets #3 team (Edina) in the rankings as a 3 seed along with #6 EP and #8 Eagan. So 2 of the top 4 teams and 4 of the top 8 all in one region.

Mounds View is ranked 9th yet gets a 1 seed while the #2 team in the poll Shakopee gets a 2 seed in the same region.

#5 Minnetonka snags a 1 seed and gets a region with #7 Forest Lake and #10 Blaine

#4 Lakeville North doesn't have a single team that finished in the final top 10 in their region with them but at least they did get all 3 teams that go votes I guess.

In the end, Shakopee, North and Minnetonka got pretty soft paths to the prep bowl, doesn't mean they will make it but they all have a great shot at getting there. In the meantime the only unbeaten team in 6A gets rewarded with a murder's row path to the finals.....

Seeding is within 8 team section and not 1-32.

Can’t play your section in first two rounds.

I think the rankings are off more than the seeding.

 

[State of Football]

This has been proposed and schools said no. It is hard to tell a 5 seed you can’t advance. Very few if any have

8 teams in their sections other than 6A.

Sections can do so autonomously if they’d like.

 

[State of Football]

If the change is made to where not everyone gets in the playoffs, they'd have to change the scheduling to make sure the bulk of your games are within the section. As it is now, some teams may only play 1 or 2 regular season games against their section. It's hard to figure out how good they are in relation to the rest of the section in situations like that.

A question for everyone, are there many states that have all teams get in the playoffs like MN does? I know WI and IA have 32 teams in each class make it.

Most states have all teams qualify for post season. Those who don’t in the south play 10 regular season games

 

[Some guy]

Seeding is within 8 team section and not 1-32.

Can’t play your section in first two rounds.

I think the rankings are off more than the seeding.

And it makes sense too.
Why do we assume 2 loss Edina is better than 2 loss Moundsview? Vibes?

 

[Some guy]

This has been proposed and schools said no. It is hard to tell a 5 seed you can’t advance. Very few if any have

8 teams in their sections other than 6A.

Sections can do so autonomously if they’d like.

This has not been given serious consideration. This hasn’t been asked of football coaches either.

It has no chance of happening. But it’s not because it’s been proposed considered and turned down.

 

[State of Football]

This has not been given serious consideration. This hasn’t been asked of football coaches either.

It has no chance of happening. But it’s not because it’s been proposed considered and turned down.

Fact check: check the MFCA minutes in spring of 2019. Proposed by a 5A head Coach and didn’t make it out of committee…

 

[Ranger692]

Who would be an example of a school in this situation (should be in 3A but are playing 1A)? I'm assuming because of the free/reduced lunch calculation?

Its not a situation of should be 3A and playing in class 1A but having a class 1A majority schedule

Numbers from MN high school league website

• Football AAAAAA 1630 and above
• Football AAAAA 1017-1629
• Football AAAA 598-1016
• Football AAA 313-597
• Football AA 211-312
• Football A 151-210
• Football 9-PLAYER 150 and below

Started at the top going down on QRF rankings page

2A classified schools and games VS 1A schools - (Actual enrolment numbers)

Norwood young America (8-0) played 5, 1A schools (334)
Staples-Motley (8-0) played 5, 1A schools (335)
Barnum (8-0) played 7, 1A schools (256)
Randolph (7-1) played 5, 1A schools (253)
Waterville-Elysian-Morristown (7-1) played 4, 1A schools (253)
Pillager (7-1) played 5, 1A schools (360)
Lewiston-Altura (6-2) played 7, 1A schools 245
Windom (4-4) played 8, 1A schools (339)

I didn't go through every school, but to have the majority of you schedule a class down is crazy... And that's a class down because MN doesn't count kids that come from low income homes... Its 2 classes down if EVERY kid is counted as a member of the enrolment as they should be.

 

[disco]

School isn't cheap and people seem to put a lot of money into sports to possibly play at the next level. Had they just invested the money, the kid's schooling would all be paid for.

My kid: "He's playing baseball year around and is always traveling to Missouri for tournaments and games."

Me to myself, he must be really good.

Kid just committed MIAC in baseball.

Hard for me to wrap my head around it, but he really enjoys baseball I guess. He's going to pay over $20,000 per year to go MIAC and play baseball after all that investment.

It's not just that (though the scholarship chasing is part of it). At the large suburban high schools, kids are specializing/playing year-round/travel/training etc. just to have the hope of making the high school team in some sports.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Seeding is within 8 team section and not 1-32.

Can’t play your section in first two rounds.

I think the rankings are off more than the seeding.

Guess we will find out over the next few weeks. If I had to pick which region the champion is going to come from I would take the Maple Grove one because that one feels stacked compared to the others. Of course the downside there is that they might beat each other up just trying to get to the prep bowl while some of the others are able to get there much easier.

 

[MNVCGUY]

It's not just that (though the scholarship chasing is part of it). At the large suburban high schools, kids are specializing/playing year-round/travel/training etc. just to have the hope of making the high school team in some sports.

Can vouch for that, I have a kid who plays baseball at Eastview and the competition level just to make the high school team is really high.....whereas he has played fall ball with a bunch of guys from South Saint Paul and many of those same kids were playing varsity and JV ball as sophomores and will be basically assured a spot on the high school roster their whole career due to the number of players in the system.

Talent wise he is as good or better than many of them, if he went to South Saint Paul he would probably be one of their better players.

 

[disco]

Can vouch for that, I have a kid who plays baseball at Eastview and the competition level just to make the high school team is really high.....whereas he has played fall ball with a bunch of guys from South Saint Paul and many of those same kids were playing varsity and JV ball as sophomores and will be basically assured a spot on the high school roster their whole career due to the number of players in the system.

Talent wise he is as good or better than many of them, if he went to South Saint Paul he would probably be one of their better players.

Yep. The example I often use is this.

Right now there are twelve 7th grade boys teams in Wayzata. Six travel teams, and six Southwest League teams. The main difference here is that the 'travel' teams play whole weekend tourneys around the metro. The SW league teams play teams from other districts but only 1-2 games a week. There are SW league teams from some schools that would easily beat "travel" teams from others, but their association doesn't sponsor enough travel teams for those players.

That's ~120 boys playing basketball today in one grade. A class size in Wayzata is around 1000, or will be in the next few years. Assuming half boys and girls, we'll say 500 boys. Out of 500 boys, no more than 5-7 will make the varsity basketball team. That's a ~1-2% chance at a school this size.

And I know at least two families whose kid didn't make a travel team in Wayzata and got a waiver to play for a travel program in another, weaker association, because their parents couldn't handle telling the Joneses that their kid wasn't playing travel basketball.

 

[disco]

This has not been given serious consideration. This hasn’t been asked of football coaches either.

It has no chance of happening. But it’s not because it’s been proposed considered and turned down.

I think I missed something, and I looked back through the posts. What was not given serious consideration? Seeding all playoff teams instead of sections?

 

[fatgopher]

Yep. The example I often use is this.

Right now there are twelve 7th grade boys teams in Wayzata. Six travel teams, and six Southwest League teams. The main difference here is that the 'travel' teams play whole weekend tourneys around the metro. The SW league teams play teams from other districts but only 1-2 games a week. There are SW league teams from some schools that would easily beat "travel" teams from others, but their association doesn't sponsor enough travel teams for those players.

That's ~120 boys playing basketball today in one grade. A class size in Wayzata is around 1000, or will be in the next few years. Assuming half boys and girls, we'll say 500 boys. Out of 500 boys, no more than 5-7 will make the varsity basketball team. That's a ~1-2% chance at a school this size.

Same boat in Tonka, although I don't see enrollment continuing to creep much more as they're already signaling unavoidable budget cuts coming soon.

My kids fall into that "good enough for travel teams but doubtful they'll be in the basketball/baseball mix come high school" camp. I've told them to have fun, work hard, and enjoy it. If they are done with those sports come 9th grade, they will have played 3X the number of baseball and basketball games as I did growing up in a smaller town, 3rd thru 12th grade. We enjoy the teams/families we've been with. Travel sports definitely has it's crazies but overall it's been fun experiences.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Guess we will find out over the next few weeks. If I had to pick which region the champion is going to come from I would take the Maple Grove one because that one feels stacked compared to the others. Of course the downside there is that they might beat each other up just trying to get to the prep bowl while some of the others are able to get there much easier.

My guess is Maple Grove is the only team that survives that bracket.

Good football is played all over 6A. Centennial and Edina were not #1 seeds last year.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Its not a situation of should be 3A and playing in class 1A but having a class 1A majority schedule

Started at the top going down on QRF rankings page

2A classified schools and games VS 1A schools - (Actual enrolment numbers)

Norwood young America (8-0) played 5, 1A schools (334)
Staples-Motley (8-0) played 5, 1A schools (335)
Barnum (8-0) played 7, 1A schools (256)
Randolph (7-1) played 5, 1A schools (253)
Waterville-Elysian-Morristown (7-1) played 4, 1A schools (253)
Pillager (7-1) played 5, 1A schools (360)
Lewiston-Altura (6-2) played 7, 1A schools 245
Windom (4-4) played 8, 1A schools (339)

I didn't go through every school, but to have the majority of you schedule a class down is crazy... And that's a class down because MN doesn't count kids that come from low income homes... Its 2 classes down if EVERY kid is counted as a member of the enrolment as they should be.

I can't speak to every school on your list. But I live in Windom. the Windom program was literally dying - numbers down, getting pounded every week. so Windom went to the District committee and petitioned to be allowed to play a 1A schedule in order to try and rebuild the program. This season Windom played mainly competitive games. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that forcing Windom to play a 2A schedule would have put the program one step closer to folding or being forced to consolidate. the same thing happened with St. James.

on the MSHSL web site, after the free-&-reduced adjustment, Windom's enrollment is listed at 283. BOLD - listed at 179 - beat Windom 56-14. Springfield - listed at 148 - beat Windom 54-7. Windom also lost to Murray County Central - listed at 196, and Sleepy Eye United - combined enrollment listed at 213.

and here's the thing - it's not just about enrollment, it's about participation.

tonight, Windom plays Redwood Valley in the Section 3AA playoffs. Redwood Valley - listed enrollment 309, has 41 kids out 10-12. Windom - listed enrollment 283 - has 25 kids out 10-12.
if we include Freshmen, RV has 58 kids out - Windom has 37 kids out. that is the kind of thing that the District committee takes into account.

 

[Ranger692]

I can't speak to every school on your list. But I live in Windom. the Windom program was literally dying - numbers down, getting pounded every week. so Windom went to the District committee and petitioned to be allowed to play a 1A schedule in order to try and rebuild the program. This season Windom played mainly competitive games. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that forcing Windom to play a 2A schedule would have put the program one step closer to folding or being forced to consolidate. the same thing happened with St. James.

on the MSHSL web site, after the free-&-reduced adjustment, Windom's enrollment is listed at 283. BOLD - listed at 179 - beat Windom 56-14. Springfield - listed at 148 - beat Windom 54-7. Windom also lost to Murray County Central - listed at 196, and Sleepy Eye United - combined enrollment listed at 213.

and here's the thing - it's not just about enrollment, it's about participation.

tonight, Windom plays Redwood Valley in the Section 3AA playoffs. Redwood Valley - listed enrollment 309, has 41 kids out 10-12. Windom - listed enrollment 283 - has 25 kids out 10-12.
if we include Freshmen, RV has 58 kids out - Windom has 37 kids out. that is the kind of thing that the District committee takes into account.

Windom is the exception to the schools listed, also not part of the teams who should be in class 3A. Participation numbers from my experience is a school culture issue. Which falls on the town and the coaching staff. Are there cases where schools a class lower much better than schools a class up? Of course... But you cant say that a school with high participation numbers in 9 man because EVERY male goes out for football should be playing teams in 3A because they both have 70 kids out for football. Its a sticky situation and there are schools that fall into special circumstances... Wadena also has a very high enrolment, over 400 I believe but they canceled their football season due to low numbers. That's a culture issue that's hard to tourn around and it starts at the elementary level.

The issues lies where in a school like Breckenridge (1A) has played more 2A and 3A games the past 4 seasons than 1A games

Regular season Games the past 4 season for Breckenridge
2A+3A = 18 games
1A = 14 games

Why?

 

[DinkytownDelight]

I can't speak to every school on your list. But I live in Windom. the Windom program was literally dying - numbers down, getting pounded every week. so Windom went to the District committee and petitioned to be allowed to play a 1A schedule in order to try and rebuild the program. This season Windom played mainly competitive games. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that forcing Windom to play a 2A schedule would have put the program one step closer to folding or being forced to consolidate. the same thing happened with St. James.

on the MSHSL web site, after the free-&-reduced adjustment, Windom's enrollment is listed at 283. BOLD - listed at 179 - beat Windom 56-14. Springfield - listed at 148 - beat Windom 54-7. Windom also lost to Murray County Central - listed at 196, and Sleepy Eye United - combined enrollment listed at 213.

and here's the thing - it's not just about enrollment, it's about participation.

tonight, Windom plays Redwood Valley in the Section 3AA playoffs. Redwood Valley - listed enrollment 309, has 41 kids out 10-12. Windom - listed enrollment 283 - has 25 kids out 10-12.
if we include Freshmen, RV has 58 kids out - Windom has 37 kids out. that is the kind of thing that the District committee takes into account.

What do you believe has caused such a fall off in Windom boys sports in the past 10-20 years? Most of the former Southwest conference has thrived in football (and others) while it seems that Windom is being left behind.

 

[disco]

I can't speak to every school on your list. But I live in Windom. the Windom program was literally dying - numbers down, getting pounded every week. so Windom went to the District committee and petitioned to be allowed to play a 1A schedule in order to try and rebuild the program. This season Windom played mainly competitive games. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that forcing Windom to play a 2A schedule would have put the program one step closer to folding or being forced to consolidate. the same thing happened with St. James.

on the MSHSL web site, after the free-&-reduced adjustment, Windom's enrollment is listed at 283. BOLD - listed at 179 - beat Windom 56-14. Springfield - listed at 148 - beat Windom 54-7. Windom also lost to Murray County Central - listed at 196, and Sleepy Eye United - combined enrollment listed at 213.

and here's the thing - it's not just about enrollment, it's about participation.

tonight, Windom plays Redwood Valley in the Section 3AA playoffs. Redwood Valley - listed enrollment 309, has 41 kids out 10-12. Windom - listed enrollment 283 - has 25 kids out 10-12.
if we include Freshmen, RV has 58 kids out - Windom has 37 kids out. that is the kind of thing that the District committee takes into account.

There are schools that fall into a similar situation at all levels. We've often referenced Hopkins here because of their futility in football despite being a very large school. While their neighboring schools Edina, Minnetonka and Wayzata all have about 4-6 youth football teams per grade, Hopkins has one. And despite a few wins this year, their high school team is always one of the worst in 6A, and would probably be bad even in 4A or 5A.

 

[Some guy]

I think I missed something, and I looked back through the posts. What was not given serious consideration? Seeding all playoff teams instead of sections?

The idea of not having everyone make the playoffs has not been given serious consideration

 

[gopher-revolution]

Fact check: check the MFCA minutes in spring of 2019. Proposed by a 5A head Coach and didn’t make it out of committee.

Fact check: check the MFCA minutes in spring of 2019. Proposed by a 5A head Coach and didn’t make it out of committee…

Not sure how or who was on that committee, but our head coach proposed (I believe three years ago to the committee) a 4-team per section playoff w/ the teams who did not make it playing teams from other sections who also did not make it. We had a lot of backing from coaches, but not the committee. Stolsky went into his speech about the playoffs being "a new season", and another older, retired coach agreed, and it ended there. It was a committee meeting, not a coaches vote. It would be interesting to see what a coaches poll would reveal? I truly do not know the answer, but having talked to many current coaches in southeast corner, I haven't talked to one yet who likes the current "everyone makes the playoffs" format. It is a big turnoff for the 7 and 8 seeds who get their butts handed to them and then have to to get their players excited about next year. The kids are done at this point. I believe the health and future of high school football needs to be considered. Believe me, the 5-8 seeds have no illusion of grandeur that they are going to make a run at state. I also offer that I'm looking at it from the viewpoint of small schools in our area and I may certainly be missing the perspective of other areas and levels of play.

 

[Some guy]

Not sure how or who was on that committee, but our head coach proposed (I believe three years ago to the committee) a 4-team per section playoff w/ the teams who did not make it playing teams from other sections who also did not make it. We had a lot of backing from coaches, but not the committee. Stolsky went into his speech about the playoffs being "a new season", and another older, retired coach agreed, and it ended there. It was a committee meeting, not a coaches vote. It would be interesting to see what a coaches poll would reveal? I truly do not know the answer, but having talked to many current coaches in southeast corner, I haven't talked to one yet who likes the current "everyone makes the playoffs" format. It is a big turnoff for the 7 and 8 seeds who get their butts handed to them and then have to to get their players excited about next year. The kids are done at this point. I believe the health and future of high school football needs to be considered. Believe me, the 5-8 seeds have no illusion of grandeur that they are going to make a run at state. I also offer that I'm looking at it from the viewpoint of small schools in our area and I may certainly be missing the perspective of other areas and levels of play.

Being brought up =\= given serious consideration

 

[Ranger692]

Most states have all teams qualify for post season. Those who don’t in the south play 10 regular season games

Most?

MN is the only state in the upper Midwest that all do... Find it hard to believe MOST states do with MN being the only one out of ND, SD, WI, IA, NE and MN

IN- yes
IL - no
OH - no
MI - no
MO - Looks like it

SO 3 out of the entire Midwest...

OR- no
MD - yes
VT-no
SC- no
TX- no
OK-no
CA-no

All answers from coaches I know from other states other than here in MN

Many sections in class A are voting to remove 7 and 8 seeds from playoffs at the request of the 7 and 8 seeds.. MN should move to top 32 teams and move forward.

 

[fatgopher]

The issues lies where in a school like Breckenridge (1A) has played more 2A and 3A games the past 4 seasons than 1A games

Regular season Games the past 4 season for Breckenridge
2A+3A = 18 games
1A = 14 games

Why?

They appear to have dropped from AA to A in 2019. Formerly a strong Class B/Class AA program, enrollment has not been kind to them while old Heart O' Lake conference foes like DGF, Perham, Barnesville have grown/maintained due to closer proximity to a growing Fargo-Moorhead.

 

[xyz1]

To be fair to Hopkins the school isn't nearly as big as Wayzata, Minnetonka, or Eden Prairie, and faces all sorts of demographic and socioeconomic challenges that the schools surrounding it don't have to nearly the same degree.

The idea of every team in every sport making the postseason has seemingly become sacred but it doesn't have to be that way. Until 1972 there were no football playoffs, and until 1984 they were very small (when I was in high school in 1983 a neighboring school went 8-1 and tied for the conference championship but did not make the playoffs based on whatever selection method was used then). There is nothing saying everyone automatically has to advance, and were I a senior on a 1-7 team, which I once was, I'd much rather have my last game be against a team we had a chance to beat than one in which we were uncompetitive against a top seed.