2024 MN High School Football thread

[Gopherchase]

Most?

MN is the only state in the upper Midwest that all do... Find it hard to believe MOST states do with MN being the only one out of ND, SD, WI, IA, NE and MN

IN- yes
IL - no
OH - no
MI - no
MO - Looks like it

SO 3 out of the entire Midwest...

OR- no
MD - yes
VT-no
SC- no
TX- no
OK-no
CA-no

All answers from coaches I know from other states other than here in MN

Many sections in class A are voting to remove 7 and 8 seeds from playoffs at the request of the 7 and 8 seeds.. MN should move to top 32 teams and move forward.

Not surprising in this land of participation trophies. I’m not advocating for return to this, but back in the day you had to win your conference to go to state That made every game During the course of the year super important.

 

[disco]

Not surprising in this land of participation trophies. I’m not advocating for return to this, but back in the day you had to win your conference to go to state That made every game During the course of the year super important.

Well, since conferences don't really exist for football any longer that wouldn't work.

 

[Gopherchase]

Yep. The example I often use is this.

Right now there are twelve 7th grade boys teams in Wayzata. Six travel teams, and six Southwest League teams. The main difference here is that the 'travel' teams play whole weekend tourneys around the metro. The SW league teams play teams from other districts but only 1-2 games a week. There are SW league teams from some schools that would easily beat "travel" teams from others, but their association doesn't sponsor enough travel teams for those players.

That's ~120 boys playing basketball today in one grade. A class size in Wayzata is around 1000, or will be in the next few years. Assuming half boys and girls, we'll say 500 boys. Out of 500 boys, no more than 5-7 will make the varsity basketball team. That's a ~1-2% chance at a school this size.

And I know at least two families whose kid didn't make a travel team in Wayzata and got a waiver to play for a travel program in another, weaker association, because their parents couldn't handle telling the Joneses that their kid wasn't playing travel basketball.

Everybody who’s paying even a little bit of attention should know this about basketball. Unless your kid is really good if they play at a big competitive school, the odds are way against them of ever making it onto even the JV team. That’s life. That said, there are a lot of other sports out there now like lacrosse or other things that they can play, and have a much better chance of making a varsity team. Also, the thing about basketball is you always have intramurals if they really wanna play the sport into high school and then into college and it’s also a sport you can play as an “old” man.

 

[Gopherchase]

Well, since conferences don't really exist for football any longer that wouldn't work.

Right – – and so now everybody makes it and we have seeding which regardless is always going to be fraught with people being pissed off for one reason or the other. At the end of the day, everybody gets to tee it up and settle it on the field so whether you’re a one seed or four or an eight who gives a shit go out and play the game.

 

[Ranger692]

Well, since conferences don't really exist for football any longer that wouldn't work.

There are conferences, They have cool names like Mid Northwest - White and Mid Northwest Central and no kid in those conferences knows they are apart of that conference...

Because the district schedules have taken every team and they just throw darts at the wall and move teams into and out of districts and place them in this conference this year and that conference in 2 years from now.

I miss the days when you had conference rivals based mostly on geography. There is hardly such thing as a conference rival in football anymore outside the metro area.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

What do you believe has caused such a fall off in Windom boys sports in the past 10-20 years? Most of the former Southwest conference has thrived in football (and others) while it seems that Windom is being left behind.

a couple of thoughts -
* coaching turnover. Windom seems like there is a new coach every 2 or 3 years. no continuity in the program. one hire in particular went very badly and participation really dropped after that.

*changing demographics. more Latino students and they have not embraced (American) football. Windom began a soccer co-op with St. James to accommodate that population.

*specialization. for a lot of male athletes, football is their 2nd or 3rd sport. so as more kids decide to focus on one sport, football is often the first sport to be dropped, because "I don't want to get hurt and miss basketball or baseball." last year's starting QB didn't go out this season for that very reason.

*finally, I have no way to quantify this, but Windom just does not seem to have the same caliber of athletes they had in the 1990's when they went to the state playoffs multiple times. the line play has really been an issue - just no size. the big kids aren't athletic, and the athletic kids aren't big.

 

[disco]

Everybody who’s paying even a little bit of attention should know this about basketball. Unless your kid is really good if they play at a big competitive school, the odds are way against them of ever making it onto even the JV team. That’s life. That said, there are a lot of other sports out there now like lacrosse or other things that they can play, and have a much better chance of making a varsity team. Also, the thing about basketball is you always have intramurals if they really wanna play the sport into high school and then into college and it’s also a sport you can play as an “old” man.

Right, but parents continue to pour multiple thousands of dollars into those youth sports.

 

[disco]

I miss the days when you had conference rivals based mostly on geography. There is hardly such thing as a conference rival in football anymore outside the metro area.

They don't really exist in the metro anymore either.

 

[Ranger692]

Right – – and so now everybody makes it and we have seeding which regardless is always going to be fraught with people being pissed off for one reason or the other. At the end of the day, everybody gets to tee it up and settle it on the field so whether you’re a one seed or four or an eight who gives a shit go out and play the game.

Yup settle it on the field where 2A Staples-Motley who has a 3A enrolment goes up to Pine river to play a bad 1A school during the regular season.

People give a shit because we have a system that puts teams in classes, then schedules Very good higher classification teams against very bad teams in lower classes.

 

[Gopherchase]

Yup settle it on the field where 2A Staples-Motley who has a 3A enrolment goes up to Pine river to play a bad 1A school during the regular season.

People give a shit because we have a system that puts teams in classes, then schedules Very good higher classification teams against very bad teams in lower classes.

Maybe I’m missing something so people get upset because Staples is getting off too easy or Pine Rivers getting off too hard? If it’s the latter, they get to play another game what the hell one alternative would be their careers over and they sit at home. With the wide disparity of quality as a relates to the football teams by geography and size the seeding is going to be a disaster, no matter what.

 

[Some guy]

They don't really exist in the metro anymore either.

Some do.
The 6a schedule this year is the first time since the district approach has happened the schedule makes any sense

 

[Lou Brown]

School isn't cheap and people seem to put a lot of money into sports to possibly play at the next level. Had they just invested the money, the kid's schooling would all be paid for.

My kid: "He's playing baseball year around and is always traveling to Missouri for tournaments and games."

Me to myself, he must be really good.

Kid just committed MIAC in baseball.

Hard for me to wrap my head around it, but he really enjoys baseball I guess. He's going to pay over $20,000 per year to go MIAC and play baseball after all that investment.

Baseball scholarship money is terrible. In the NSIC you're getting $500 - $1500 a year as a Freshman - can grow to about $6000 by senior year if you are All Conf, Captain etc. D1 your getting maybe 1/3 Scholarship. Baseball isnt Football / Basketball. Kids choose MIAC, JUCO, NSIC based largely on where they want to go to school.

There are studs at every level in baseball - more so than the other big four sports.

Very few kids are playing club ball to go DI - its become like College hockey and playing Juniors - if you're not playing Club its more difficult to get in front of the coaches. The coaches go where the kids are. You go to a HS game and you might love a kid that really sees himself as a basketball or football player and isnt interested in baseball in college - at a club tourney in KC or Cedar Rapids all the kids there want to play in college.

Coached at the inhouse, travel, legion, varsity and club level for past 15 years and have a son playing in college - just my observations over the years.

 

[Gopherwatcher]

Its not a situation of should be 3A and playing in class 1A but having a class 1A majority schedule

Numbers from MN high school league website

• Football AAAAAA 1630 and above
• Football AAAAA 1017-1629
• Football AAAA 598-1016
• Football AAA 313-597
• Football AA 211-312
• Football A 151-210
• Football 9-PLAYER 150 and below

Started at the top going down on QRF rankings page

2A classified schools and games VS 1A schools - (Actual enrolment numbers)

Norwood young America (8-0) played 5, 1A schools (334)
Staples-Motley (8-0) played 5, 1A schools (335)
Barnum (8-0) played 7, 1A schools (256)
Randolph (7-1) played 5, 1A schools (253)
Waterville-Elysian-Morristown (7-1) played 4, 1A schools (253)
Pillager (7-1) played 5, 1A schools (360)
Lewiston-Altura (6-2) played 7, 1A schools 245
Windom (4-4) played 8, 1A schools (339)

I didn't go through every school, but to have the majority of you schedule a class down is crazy... And that's a class down because MN doesn't count kids that come from low income homes... Its 2 classes down if EVERY kid is counted as a member of the enrolment as they should be.

Well, by your logic, unless you look at EVERY school they play, then maybe they aren't class A schools either if you are looking at actual enrollment numbers. You can't put out player cut-offs that DO NOT use actual enrollment, but instead the free/reduced lunch count, and then proceed to show the actual enrollment numbers of those schools.

Here are their numbers that the MSHSL uses.
NYA - 305
Barnum - 219
Randolph - 233
WEM - 217
Pillager - 298
LA -211
Windom - 283

So 3 of the schools are within 9 students of Class A. The MSHSL tries to fill districts with an even number of schools, so maybe that is why they have Class AA schools playing Class A schools, BUT according to the MSHSL classification process, none of these schools are AAA schools.

 

[Some guy]

Well, by your logic, unless you look at EVERY school they play, then maybe they aren't class A schools either if you are looking at actual enrollment numbers. You can't put out player cut-offs that DO NOT use actual enrollment, but instead the free/reduced lunch count, and then proceed to show the actual enrollment numbers of those schools.

Here are their numbers that the MSHSL uses.
NYA - 305
Barnum - 219
Randolph - 233
WEM - 217
Pillager - 298
LA -211
Windom - 283

So 3 of the schools are within 9 students of Class A. The MSHSL tries to fill districts with an even number of schools, so maybe that is why they have Class AA schools playing Class A schools, BUT according to the MSHSL classification process, none of these schools are AAA schools.

I do find it interesting the state high school league picked 60%

Like 3/5th? Really…couldn’t have picked any other multiplier than that

 

[disco]

Maybe I’m missing something so people get upset because Staples is getting off too easy or Pine Rivers getting off too hard? If it’s the latter, they get to play another game what the hell one alternative would be their careers over and they sit at home. With the wide disparity of quality as a relates to the football teams by geography and size the seeding is going to be a disaster, no matter what.

Pine River is an awful team - they got killed every week. Staples-Motley is a good team - they're undefeated. This isn't a class issue. This is a mismatch no matter the attendance.

And I'm not seeing where the whole "well, they're 2A, but have 3A enrollment" is coming from.
I don't love the whole reduced lunch formula for this, but all schools play under those rules.

And I see that Cass Lake - Bena has chosen to forfeit their playoff game against undefeated Red Lake County (not to be confused with perennially winless Red Lake).

 

[disco]

I do find it interesting the state high school league picked 60%

Like 3/5th? Really…couldn’t have picked any other multiplier than that

Man, I was just going to post something similar and decided against it.

 

[Ranger692]

Well, by your logic, unless you look at EVERY school they play, then maybe they aren't class A schools either if you are looking at actual enrollment numbers. You can't put out player cut-offs that DO NOT use actual enrollment, but instead the free/reduced lunch count, and then proceed to show the actual enrollment numbers of those schools.

Here are their numbers that the MSHSL uses.
NYA - 305
Barnum - 219
Randolph - 233
WEM - 217
Pillager - 298
LA -211
Windom - 283

So 3 of the schools are within 9 students of Class A. The MSHSL tries to fill districts with an even number of schools, so maybe that is why they have Class AA schools playing Class A schools, BUT according to the MSHSL classification process, none of these schools are AAA schools.

Exactly my point...

How can a kid walk through the doors of the school.
Attend class.
School district receive funding for that student.
Student does not count towards enrollment for sports.

Classification is done by enrollment numbers. How can the enrolment be decided by who's family pays for school lunch? If they don't count for sports enrolment numbers, how can they count for funding? How can Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue count for one and not the other?

Participation numbers are HIGHLY dictated by whoever is coaching that team and not much else. Good coaches change bad cultures and participation goes up.

 

[Ranger692]

Pine River is an awful team - they got killed every week. Staples-Motley is a good team - they're undefeated. This isn't a class issue. This is a mismatch no matter the attendance.

And I'm not seeing where the whole "well, they're 2A, but have 3A enrollment" is coming from.
I don't love the whole reduced lunch formula for this, but all schools play under those rules.

And I see that Cass Lake - Bena has chosen to forfeit their playoff game against undefeated Red Lake County (not to be confused with perennially winless Red Lake).

It comes from the place of Why are we having kids not count in the enrolment numbers?
It comes from 1A schools getting smashed on a weekly basis by teams the state is forcing them to play that are MUCH bigger than them.
Nobody cares how the 1A schools feel that get to play most of their games VS 2A schools and what it does to program health to see the schedule come out and go well there are 5 games we most likely cant win and 3 games we should.

 

[disco]

Here's something interesting. The Big 9 is a pretty historic conference in southern Minnesota. Look how it's split up for district football.

MSHSL Districts in which Big 9 teams are placed... Metro - South Mayo Northstar - South-Gold Mankato West, Mankato East Northstar - South-Maroon Northfield, Owatonna, Century, John Marshall Skyway - Platinum Austin, Faribault, Winona South Central - White Albert Lea Southeast - Red Red Wing

 

[disco]

It comes from the place of Why are we having kids not count in the enrolment numbers?
It comes from 1A schools getting smashed on a weekly basis by teams the state is forcing them to play that are MUCH bigger than them.
Nobody cares how the 1A schools feel that get to play most of their games VS 2A schools and what it does to program health to see the schedule come out and go well there are 5 games we most likely cant win and 3 games we should.

It's not just small schools. Here are some numbers from large schools.
First number is MSHSL enrollment (using the lunch formula). Second number is actual enrollment from the MDE.

Park Center - 1377/1908
Hopkins - 1677/~1900 (I could only pull 2023 MDE data, and Hopkins was still 10-12 then, so this is an estimate)
Coon Rapids - 1686/2167
Burnsville - 1633/2119
Roseville - 1879/2327
Cooper - 1138/1630
Osseo - 1779/2280
Kennedy - 1182/1601
Jefferson - 1447/1637
Cambridge - 1377/1605

I could go on. There are pretty signficant differences in a lot of these schools between what the high school league uses, and what is reality.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Right, but parents continue to pour multiple thousands of dollars into those youth sports.

And communities build economy around youth sport tourism these days, while families schedule travel tournaments as vacations.

 

[Gopherchase]

Pine River is an awful team - they got killed every week. Staples-Motley is a good team - they're undefeated. This isn't a class issue. This is a mismatch no matter the attendance.

And I'm not seeing where the whole "well, they're 2A, but have 3A enrollment" is coming from.
I don't love the whole reduced lunch formula for this, but all schools play under those rules.

And I see that Cass Lake - Bena has chosen to forfeit their playoff game against undefeated Red Lake County (not to be confused with perennially winless Red Lake).

I think I’m still missing the point because seeding generally in the first round facilitates mismatches?

 

[disco]

Here are the ACTUAL 64 largest schools in the state. Hopkins has an asterisk, as they were the last big metro school to use a Jr. High Model, so their numbers are 10-12 only. White Bear Lake has two campuses for high school, so those had to be combined.

If we assume Hopkins actually has 1900 or so 9-12, Forest Lake would be number 33 on this list dropping down to 5A.

Pretty interesting.

2022-23 Public Enrollment File

Wayzata High	3523
Minnetonka Senior High	3508
Champlin Park High School	2983
Blaine High School	2969
Prior Lake High School	2857
Eden Prairie Senior High	2833
Shakopee High School	2770
Edina Senior High	2720
Stillwater Area High School	2647
White Bear Lake	2470
Rosemount Senior High	2425
Roseville Area Senior High	2327
Maple Grove Senior High	2324
Anoka High School	2322
Eastview Senior High	2308
Osseo Senior High	2280
St. Michael-Albertville Senior High	2240
Farmington High School	2201
Eagan Senior High	2171
Coon Rapids High School	2167
Burnsville High School	2119
East Ridge High School	2021
Centennial High School	1982
Woodbury High School	1979
Spring Lake Park Senior High	1947
Park High School	1938
Moorhead High School	1937
Park Center	1908
Lakeville South High	1906
Mounds View Senior High	1901
Apple Valley Senior High	1893
Forest Lake Area High School	1876
Mayo Senior High	1862
Brainerd Senior High	1842
Robbinsdale Armstrong Senior High	1832
Buffalo Senior High	1818
Lakeville North High	1796
Washington Tech Secondary Magnet	1766
Andover High School	1758
Rogers Senior High	1740
Harding Senior High	1717
Irondale Senior High	1706
Century Senior High	1698
Central Senior High	1691
Jefferson Senior High	1637
Elk River Senior High	1637
Robbinsdale Cooper Senior High	1630
Cambridge-Isanti High School	1605
Kennedy Senior High	1601
North Senior High	1594
Chaska High School	1584
Washburn High	1582
John Marshall Senior High	1573
Technical Senior High	1515
East High School	1494
Hopkins Senior High	1491*
Southwest High	1484
St. Louis Park Senior High	1483
Two Rivers High School	1479
Owatonna Senior High	1475
South High	1466
Bemidji Senior High	1432
Sauk Rapids-Rice Senior High	1394
Highland Park Senior High	1390

 

[Word]

Can vouch for that, I have a kid who plays baseball at Eastview and the competition level just to make the high school team is really high.....whereas he has played fall ball with a bunch of guys from South Saint Paul and many of those same kids were playing varsity and JV ball as sophomores and will be basically assured a spot on the high school roster their whole career due to the number of players in the system.

Talent wise he is as good or better than many of them, if he went to South Saint Paul he would probably be one of their better players.

Similar situation for my kids at one of the larger metro schools. Could have been on varsity as a freshman at some schools but may never make varsity at our school.

 

[Ope3]

Next year I think there needs to be thread for actual High School Football games/competition and rankings and another to deal with the ancillary stuff about Class-Section-District placement, enrollment, participation yada yada yada.

 

[GeezoBeezo]

Baseball scholarship money is terrible. In the NSIC you're getting $500 - $1500 a year as a Freshman - can grow to about $6000 by senior year if you are All Conf, Captain etc. D1 your getting maybe 1/3 Scholarship. Baseball isnt Football / Basketball. Kids choose MIAC, JUCO, NSIC based largely on where they want to go to school.

There are studs at every level in baseball - more so than the other big four sports.

Very few kids are playing club ball to go DI - its become like College hockey and playing Juniors - if you're not playing Club its more difficult to get in front of the coaches. The coaches go where the kids are. You go to a HS game and you might love a kid that really sees himself as a basketball or football player and isnt interested in baseball in college - at a club tourney in KC or Cedar Rapids all the kids there want to play in college.

Coached at the inhouse, travel, legion, varsity and club level for past 15 years and have a son playing in college - just my observations over the years.

Scholarship money has improved with the roster limits. D1 players are getting more money and NSIC schools giving more now too due to less kids getting roster spots. Still not a ton once you are below D1 level.

 

[GeezoBeezo]

One interesting comment came up at coach seeding meeting. The coach of the bottom seed of our section did not want to play first round game, but is playing due to the push back he'd receive. He also announced he was done after the year, so there's that too.

Not sure the point of playing a game knowing you'd likely lose 49-0 after a season of losing by 30+ points most weeks.

 

[Gopherchase]

One interesting comment came up at coach seeding meeting. The coach of the bottom seed of our section did not want to play first round game, but is playing due to the push back he'd receive. He also announced he was done after the year, so there's that too.

Not sure the point of playing a game knowing you'd likely lose 49-0 after a season of losing by 30+ points most weeks.

Wow, that coach is a real leader of men – – – probably good that he is getting out.

 

[gwbbfan82]

To be fair to Hopkins the school isn't nearly as big as Wayzata, Minnetonka, or Eden Prairie, and faces all sorts of demographic and socioeconomic challenges that the schools surrounding it don't have to nearly the same degree.

The idea of every team in every sport making the postseason has seemingly become sacred but it doesn't have to be that way. Until 1972 there were no football playoffs, and until 1984 they were very small (when I was in high school in 1983 a neighboring school went 8-1 and tied for the conference championship but did not make the playoffs based on whatever selection method was used then). There is nothing saying everyone automatically has to advance, and were I a senior on a 1-7 team, which I once was, I'd much rather have my last game be against a team we had a chance to beat than one in which we were uncompetitive against a top seed.

Same for Roseville. This year Roseville & Hopkins are in the Maroon league which give a chance for 6A low tier teams to play teams like themselves. Roseville won 3 games. Hopkins won 3 games. Other teams in this league are Eastview & Burnsville who are probably the worst 4 teams in 6A. Osseo may join next year. Due to participation numbers & demographics of these schools they are not good. Roseville has 2300 students but most do not turn out for football and/or baseball and/or hockey. Roseville was once pretty good in these sports. Not anymore. How is it for Hopkins that their boy's basketball team is so good?

 

[LeftofThaDial]

Similar situation for my kids at one of the larger metro schools. Could have been on varsity as a freshman at some schools but may never make varsity at our school.

My daughters senior class had a very large talented group of soccer players, I think 7 went D1, the one positive of club sports is 2 girls that never made their HS varsity team are playing D2 soccer, and few others D3.