16 of top 18 on defense third year or more?

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Bob_Loblaw said:
So, the standard we should be using we judging "experienced" players is "experienced = 4th/5th year".

To answer your question though:
Shenault
Dovich
Witham
Beebe
Huff
Huff
Femi-Cole
Oseland
Winston

Those guys should all get quite a bit of PT. I expect big things from Femi-Cole, the Huffs, and Shenault.
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Really? I'll be surprised if Femi-Cole gets 20 carries this year. I think Rodney, Ibrahim and one of the freshmen will be the primary ball carriers.
 

GFBfan said:
Prove my statement wrong...oh that's right you can't, just like you can't prove that TC would have taken us to last place. I'm all for PJ, but don't like when the previous staff gets ripped for the future, which they are not part of. In the one year TC was coach the team won 9 games. I am of the belief and because he is a very intelligent man, that TC learned an awful lot of what it takes to be a HC and would have been a great one for us had he been given the chance to do so, not only on the field in the win loss column, but also off the field as well.

PJ is our coach. He has had one year to show his stuff. On the field last year he showed nothing that leads me to believe he is going to take us to the top of the West. This coming fall he has another chance to show if he has what it takes at the BIG level and can build a champion. Off the field his recruiting has been an improvement when it comes to class rankings and that is all we have to go on at the moment. He has also, been good about promoting the program and having players doing the right things off the field. I like how the spring game was run this year. I am hopeful he can be a great leader of a consistent winning program. We as Gopher fans have been waiting a long time for that to happen.
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I really have very little argument with what you wrote. I think all of us are on the same page with our hopes and dreams for the Gopher program.

At the same time, there's very little value in making statements like you believe TC would have had us at the top of the West for years to come and then saying you can't be proven wrong. That would be historically unprecedented, and certainly not in line with the talent he seemed to be acquiring, and it's not at all ripping TC to point out that such a statement at this time is unreasonable and unrealistic.

Hopefully that will change. I feel a sense of optimism around the program, although as someone who openly predicted nine wins last season I've adopted a more cautious timeline.
 

Urbandale said:
I really have very little argument with what you wrote. I think all of us are on the same page with our hopes and dreams for the Gopher program.

At the same time, there's very little value in making statements like you believe TC would have had us at the top of the West for years to come and then saying you can't be proven wrong. That would be historically unprecedented, and certainly not in line with the talent he seemed to be acquiring, and it's not at all ripping TC to point out that such a statement at this time is unreasonable and unrealistic.

Hopefully that will change. I feel a sense of optimism around the program, although as someone who openly predicted nine wins last season I've adopted a more cautious timeline.
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There's also very little value in saying TC would have put us in the bottom for years.
You say TC didn't acquire talent, but in his one year of being the HC he brought in many of the starters that will be on display this fall. His one class was filled with good players. We have no idea what his next class would have been, because he didn't get to sign them.
 

My gut feeling is that Claeys, given time, would have kept the Gophers at a competitive level. By competitive, I mean winning 7, 8 maybe 9 games some years and going to a bowl game.

Compared to the average Gopher team over the last 50 years, that is a competitive level.

Some people say that's not good enough - that the program should strive to be better - i.e. winning conference titles.

That's all well and good, but if it was easy, someone would have done it in the last 50 years.

It's like saying, my girlfriend is a 7, but I'm going to dump her because I think I deserve a 9 or a 10. You go that route, and it's entirely possible you wind up alone, wishing you had your old girlfriend back.
 

John Galt said:
But you loved the other post that had nothing to do with the OP. Maybe because it was a knock on PJ? Seriously, find a new hobby...
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FYI, these posts aren't poking fun at PJ. It's poking fun at the Flecksters.

PJ is just doing his job and part of that is expectation control. Partly for the fans, but partly for the players as well. He may do it with more of a flourish than most, but all coaches do it.
 


bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Agrees. I don't like it when a new coach has a bad year, so many of us feel the need to denigrate the previous coach with <b>unprovable assumptions that they were going to go way downhill as a way to excuse the new coach's performance. </b>If the new coach is a good hire, they will stand just fine on their own record, without a need to lower expectations for them.
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Unproven? Draftable Seniors.


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I'm not really sure what the original post was intended to point out.
I think he meant that there are players who have been here for a couple years, but he lists Vic and Annexstad, etc., who both arrived on campus a couple months ago.

So in the supporting argument, it seems to go against what his original point was, which makes you wonder if it was supposed to be sarcasm or not.

In the end, many of our redshirt Juniors and Seniors for this years team aren't going to be large contributors in my opinion.
This would support the idea that the team is younger / inexperienced.

Others will point to other players who recently were brought into the program as stopgaps and used them as an example as to why we should win 9-12 games this year when it's unlikely. This would help paint the picture that PJ isn't a successful coach if he doesn't win a lot this year, despite reasonable adults understanding it likely won't be a great year due to the lack of experience at key positions.
 

Spoofin said:
Unproven? Draftable Seniors.


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I'm sticking with unprovable. We will never know how many games Claeys would have win last year, this year, or any other year. What we do know is how many games he won the one full year he was here.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I'm sticking with unprovable. We will never know how many games Claeys would have win last year, this year, or any other year. What we do know is how many games he won the one full year he was here.
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Does his one year record have any meaning if he wasn't going to be able to stay?
 



John Galt said:
Really? I'll be surprised if Femi-Cole gets 20 carries this year. I think Rodney, Ibrahim and one of the freshmen will be the primary ball carriers.
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Yeah, really. He's our biggest back and I've followed college football long enough to not count on contributions from true freshmen. Certainly, RB is a position where true freshman can contribute right away, but in my head, I think we end up seeing more Femi-Cole than you think. I could be wrong, but it seems odd to just count on "one of the freshmen" to take all of his carries, especially when he fits a certain niche (larger RB).
 


Face The Facts said:
I'm not really sure what the original post was intended to point out.
I think he meant that there are players who have been here for a couple years, but he lists Vic and Annexstad, etc., who both arrived on campus a couple months ago.

So in the supporting argument, it seems to go against what his original point was, which makes you wonder if it was supposed to be sarcasm or not.

In the end, many of our redshirt Juniors and Seniors for this years team aren't going to be large contributors in my opinion.
This would support the idea that the team is younger / inexperienced.

Others will point to other players who recently were brought into the program as stopgaps and used them as an example as to why we should win 9-12 games this year when it's unlikely. This would help paint the picture that PJ isn't a successful coach if he doesn't win a lot this year, despite reasonable adults understanding it likely won't be a great year due to the lack of experience at key positions.
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Do you see that you don't even believe the point you're trying to make? If you did, you wouldn't have said the part in bold. We all know that no one on this board expects 12 wins, no one expects 11 wins, 10 wins, or heck, I doubt you'd be able to find many people who expect 9 wins (even though, as we've learned that is an easy yet completely unattainable goal).

If you believed the point you're trying to make, you wouldn't feel the need to completely misrepresent the counterpoint.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yes. It does. We won 9 games in 2016. How could it not have any meaning?
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My point is, what good did those 9 wins do us in regards to building the program if he wasn't able to keep his job?

If it was his first year of a 20 year legacy, yeh, that's a big deal for a first year. But if you aren't able to keep your job, then it doesn't mean much because it was one year and 9 wins.
 



Face The Facts said:
Let's take a look at our RS Juniors and Seniors from the 2015 draft class to see how they'll help us this year.


Antonio Shenault
Bronson Dovich
Bryce Witham
Charlie Rogers
Colton Beebe
Demry Croft
Dior Johnson
Hunter Register
Jacob Huff
James Johannesson
Jaylen Waters
Jonathan Femi-Cole
Julian Huff
Kiante Hardin
Mose Hall
Nick Connelly
Quinn Oseland
Rashad Still
Ray Buford
Shannon Brooks
Ted Stieber
Tyler Moore
Winston DeLattiboudere
Zo Craighton

Who are we expecting big things from this year?
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Huh? Every class has some misses. Many players that could potentially thrive in one system may fall flat in another. Nothing new here.

What one might consider is how many players on the roster are in a system that plays to their strengths? Isn't Minnesota "culture" taking players that have some ability and a strong work ethic and putting them in position to succeed? What we saw from Kill, Claeys, Sawvel, and company was the ability to take hard workers and "make" them solid football players. I think Fleck has some of that as well. I just think he has a different style.

Fleck has some decent football players with experience now. He will most likely recruit better players for his system in the coming seasons. Again nothing new here. Back to the OP. There is some experience on defense. Hopefully the staff will figure out a way to put those players in a position to succeed this season.

To paraphrase a long time poster, it's about BigTen wins. I think there is enough talent there to compete/ steal a few wins. The conversation needs to shift (which Coach Fleck is already doing) from how young the team is to how much the team has grown/ is moving toward team goals.
 

STPGopher said:
Huh? Every class has some misses. Many players that could potentially thrive in one system may fall flat in another. Nothing new here.

What one might consider is how many players on the roster are in a system that plays to their strengths? Isn't Minnesota "culture" taking players that have some ability and a strong work ethic and putting them in position to succeed? What we saw from Kill, Claeys, Sawvel, and company was the ability to take hard workers and "make" them solid football players. I think Fleck has some of that as well. I just think he has a different style.

Fleck has some decent football players with experience now. He will most likely recruit better players for his system in the coming seasons. Again nothing new here. Back to the OP. There is some experience on defense. Hopefully the staff will figure out a way to put those players in a position to succeed this season.

To paraphrase a long time poster, it's about BigTen wins. I think there is enough talent there to compete/ steal a few wins. The conversation needs to shift (which Coach Fleck is already doing) from how young the team is to how much the team has grow/ is moving toward team goals.
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Well put, thanks. I'll add that every year for the past 7-8, many players have developed, and when given the opportunity, have stepped in as starters and performed well, with some having breakout seasons. I see no reason why that doesn't happen this year.
 

Face The Facts said:
My point is, what good did those 9 wins do us in regards to building the program if he wasn't able to keep his job?

If it was his first year of a 20 year legacy, yeh, that's a big deal for a first year. But if you aren't able to keep your job, then it doesn't mean much because it was one year and 9 wins.
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Huh? What does the fact that Coyle fired Claeys have anything to do with whether or not his 9 wins mean something? Of course they mean something. We are seeing, right now, how difficult it is to win 9 games at the U of MN.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
My gut feeling is that Claeys, given time, would have kept the Gophers at a competitive level. By competitive, I mean winning 7, 8 maybe 9 games some years and going to a bowl game.

Compared to the average Gopher team over the last 50 years, that is a competitive level.

Some people say that's not good enough - that the program should strive to be better - i.e. winning conference titles.

That's all well and good, but if it was easy, someone would have done it in the last 50 years.

It's like saying, my girlfriend is a 7, but I'm going to dump her because I think I deserve a 9 or a 10. You go that route, and it's entirely possible you wind up alone, wishing you had your old girlfriend back.
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I’ll never want Claeys back as an HC, and if if’s and buts were candies and nuts we’d all have a Merry Christmas. Tell me all about Claeys when he gets another Power 5 head coaching job.


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Some Day...Maybe said:
I’ll never want Claeys back as an HC, and if if’s and buts were candies and nuts we’d all have a Merry Christmas. Tell me all about Claeys when he gets another Power 5 head coaching job.


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What does the ifs and buts have to do with TC?
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Huh? What does the fact that Coyle fired Claeys have anything to do with whether or not his 9 wins mean something? Of course they mean something. We are seeing, right now, how difficult it is to win 9 games at the U of MN.
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If he was a perfect coach, he wouldn't have gotten fired.
That's kind of the point.
How meaningful is 9 wins if you have to get fired at the end of the year to do it?
 

my point was - I don't think Claeys was the greatest coach in Gopher History. I don't think he was the worst coach in Gopher history. like most coaches, he was somewhere in the middle.

On a personal level, I just liked the guy. I appreciated what I saw as a low-key, cerebral approach to the game. I don't like screamers. I don't like publicity hounds, or self-promoters.

You may be right that Claeys will never be a head coach again, because of fallout from the incident at the U and its aftermath.

That does not change the fact - a fact that for some reason seems to upset people on this board - that a Tracy Claeys-coached team won 9 games at the U of MN, and upset a higher-rated team in a bowl game.

If, during the Wacker years, you would have told me that a Gopher team would have had a 9-win season, and self-professed Gopher fans would dismiss the season as meaningless, and denigrate the coach who led the team, I would have said there's no way Gopher fans could sink that low. And I would have been wrong.
 

And just because I'm in a bad mood:

If a 9-win season has certain Gopher fans so upset, here's good news. I don't think you have to worry about another 9-win season for a while.
 

I'm optimistic because we have several new position coaches. The coaching staff proved last year they couldn't coach up the players and put them in a position to win. These coaching changes may fix that.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
That does not change the fact - a fact that for some reason seems to upset people on this board - that a Tracy Claeys-coached team won 9 games at the U of MN, and upset a higher-rated team in a bowl game.
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How could you possibly believe that Gopher fans are upset that Claeys won 9 games and won a bowl game? Even the biggest so-called “Claeys haters” thought he was a good position coach, just maybe not a good fit for head coach. The Gophers will win 9 games again soon, don’t let your emotions cloud your judgement.


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John Galt said:
It’s expected that he will receive a medical redshirt for last season, but I don’t believe it’s official yet.
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Thanks. I thought Winfield had already received the medical redshirt. When will that be decided?
 

alchemy2u said:
How could you possibly believe that Gopher fans are upset that Claeys won 9 games and won a bowl game? Even the biggest so-called “Claeys haters” thought he was a good position coach, just maybe not a good fit for head coach. The Gophers will win 9 games again soon, don’t let your emotions cloud your judgement.


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I probably come off as a Claeys hater, but there are a few things about that season that make it not such a fond memory. All of this has been discussed before but centers around off the field issues, the fact it was a 8 win season plus a bowl game win, none of the wins were against a top 25 team if I recall correctly, etc.

So yes, it was a 9 win season, but less impressive than a couple other seasons with less wins.

Others may disagree with this of course.

I was happy for the wins, but disappointed by the year.
I thought the HC coach was necessary.
That seems to be the point of differentiation in this debate.
 

Face The Facts said:
I probably come off as a Claeys hater, but there are a few things about that season that make it not such a fond memory. All of this has been discussed before but centers around off the field issues, the fact it was a 8 win season plus a bowl game win, none of the wins were against a top 25 team if I recall correctly, etc.

So yes, it was a 9 win season, but less impressive than a couple other seasons with less wins.

Others may disagree with this of course.

I was happy for the wins, but disappointed by the year.
I thought the HC coach was necessary.
That seems to be the point of differentiation in this debate.
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We're back to wins*...unbelievable.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
And just because I'm in a bad mood:

If a 9-win season has certain Gopher fans so upset, here's good news. I don't think you have to worry about another 9-win season for a while.
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Hilarious - with the I like Claeys so the Gophers would've won 7-9 games while he was the head coach. I don't like Fleck so that won't happen while he is the coach.
 


alchemy2u said:
How could you possibly believe that Gopher fans are upset that Claeys won 9 games and won a bowl game? Even the biggest so-called “Claeys haters” thought he was a good position coach, just maybe not a good fit for head coach. The Gophers will win 9 games again soon, don’t let your emotions cloud your judgement.
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How could anyone read this board for the past 18 months and not realize that there are many, many Gopher fans who are upset that Claeys won 9 games and a bowl game?
 

short ornery norwegian said:
And just because I'm in a bad mood:

If a 9-win season has certain Gopher fans so upset, here's good news. I don't think you have to worry about another 9-win season for a while.
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SON, I can appreciate your fondness for Claeys and his approach to coaching but he was a dead-man-walking with Coyle as his boss. I too do not favor the self-promoting type of coach we have at the helm currently but you can't deny the uptick in the level of recruits we are attracting. Nothing newsworthy but higher rated recruits in the long term typically portend more wins and because of that I'll keep the RTB mentality afloat.

SON, you say 9 win season won't be around any time soon. Check out the 2019 schedule.
 

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