12/27 - Rashad Vaughn will NOT attend the U

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gopheraschells said:
...c'mon, would ya really?
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You buy a sign that says "IF NEITHER ENDORSING NOR CONDONING CHEATING MAKES ME AN IDIOT...THEN I'M THE WORLD'S BIGGEST IDIOT!!!", I'll gladly hang it around my neck and wear it around all day. Let me know when you make the purchase and we can figure out shipping.
 

dpodoll68 said:
You buy a sign that says "IF NEITHER ENDORSING NOR CONDONING CHEATING MAKES ME AN IDIOT...THEN I'M THE WORLD'S BIGGEST IDIOT!!!", I'll gladly hang it around my neck and wear it around all day. Let me know when you make the purchase and we can figure out shipping.
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DO YOU HAVE A COLOR PREFERENCE?!?
 


dpodoll68 said:
Wrong! Scher is hitting it on the nuts with his explanations in this thread.

Cheating is cheating is cheating. Period. Some types of cheating are worse than others, but it's all still cheating. It doesn't matter whether it's a recruiting violation, an illegal benefits violation, or an academic integrity violation. It is all cheating. Period. Regardless of the type of cheating, I will never, ever, ever, condone it or endorse it. We must all remember it every single day and remember how badly it felt to have those ill-gotten gains taken away so that we ensure that it never, ever, ever happens again. Ever.

Why some want to massage it away and pretend that it never happened is beyond me. It's disgusting. It's cheating. Plain and simple. The Gophers have zero Final Four appearances. Plain and simple. Why don't you give the NCAA a call (you know, the governing body of college basketball) and ask them how many Final Four appearances they list for the University of Minnesota?
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I didn't say it wasn't cheating, just that it wasn't basketball related. It's not an academic competition. How many players have been through the Kentucky program in recent years without graduating? The kids weren't on steroids and they didn't have some sort of extra practice session that violated ncaa rules. If a Bob Dylan cheated on a test at the U, would the song he was composing during the same period be destroyed? If only our players skipped all their classes, we could certainly as good as an NBA team.....right....
 

AO54 said:
I didn't say it wasn't cheating, just that it wasn't basketball related.
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Again, you are wrong. It is absolutely basketball-related. Scher has already addressed this thoroughly, so I'm not going to go over it again.

And even if it weren't basketball-related (which, again, it 100% absolutely is), so what? Cheating is cheating is cheating is cheating. They cheated. They got caught. The Final Four never happened. Period.

AO54 said:
It's not an academic competition.
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Uh, yeah, actually it is. For evidence, see the APR. Connecticut can't play in the postseason next year because they didn't do their homework.

AO54 said:
How many players have been through the Kentucky program in recent years without graduating?
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Who said anything about graduating? There's a lot more to academics than graduating. Whether a player graduated or not has nothing to do with whether they cheated or not.

AO54 said:
The kids weren't on steroids and they didn't have some sort of extra practice session that violated ncaa rules.
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Who said that they did? They did, however, break other NCAA rules. This is an inarguable fact.

Oh, but the NCAA rules you arbitrarily care about are the only important ones, right?

AO54 said:
If a Bob Dylan cheated on a test at the U, would the song he was composing during the same period be destroyed?
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If there were University-sponsored songwriting competitions and there were rules governing said competitions, then yes, they would be. Since none of those things exist, then no.

Just a horrible, terrible, ridiculous, asinine analogy. You'll have to try much, much harder than that in your condoning and endorsing of cheating.

AO54 said:
If only our players skipped all their classes, we could certainly as good as an NBA team.....right....
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Who said that? Nice strawman you've constructed there.
 


Did it ever occur to you that the NCAA can penalize you for academic reason that didn't give you an unfair advantage on the court? I can't believe I would even have to explain that to you. They're keeping up appearances of being a serious academic group, not because UCONN or Minnesota wins too much.

No people do not care as much about the academic rules. We do not really care about the academic career of Derrick Williams, Kevin Love or Ricky Rubio. We only feel bad about the consequences of reduced scholarships- no final four recognition, not really the cheating or lack of graduating. How many people cared/knew that Willie Burton didn't graduate after the elite 8 run?
 

AO54 said:
Did it ever occur to you that the NCAA can penalize you for academic reason that didn't give you an unfair advantage on the court?
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Wrong. There is no such thing. By definition, the NCAA penalizes you for things that affect the fairness and intregrity of competition. National Collegiate ATHLETIC Association. The NCAA has no jurisdiction over, and doesn't care about, academic integrity for some random nerd on a physics scholarship.

AO54 said:
I can't believe I would even have to explain that to you.
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You didn't have to, because your understanding of rules is wrong. Your "explanation" is non-sensical.

AO54 said:
No people do not care as much about the academic rules.
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Wrong. I am "people". I care as much. Scher is "people". He cares as much. Therefore, you are wrong.

AO54 said:
We do not really care about the academic career of Derrick Williams, Kevin Love or Ricky Rubio.
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Why would we? They are professional athletes. There are no academic rules in place for professional athletes. Again, your dazzling ability to create ridiculous and entirely unrelated strawman arguments is breathtaking.

AO54 said:
We only feel bad about the consequences of reduced scholarships- no final four recognition, not really the cheating or lack of graduating.
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Who's "we"? If by "we", you mean "people", then once again, you are wrong. I am "people". I am part of "we". I care. I genuinely care whether athletes play, practice, and compete with integrity, both on the field of competition and in the classroom.

And stop conflating lack of graduating with cheating. They are not even remotely the same thing. I don't know why you're introducing that here where it has no business even being part of the conversation.

AO54 said:
How many people cared/knew that Willie Burton didn't graduate after the elite 8 run?
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I'll put it in capitals this time so you perhaps get it:

NOT GRADUATING DOES NOT EQUAL CHEATING.
 

Graduating has everything to do with academics. If you don't like my Kevin Love comparison--obviously he was formerly a college athlete, Is Tyus Jones going to stay all 4 years if he comes to the U? We are only really interested in keeping him eligible, not making sure he graduates or is taking the toughest courses.

The NCAA cares about eligibility rules because it is made up of college presidents who want their college to be known for academics first and foremost. It's absolutely silly to say that UCONN is getting an unfair athletic advantage just because it happens that their athletes are less serious about their studies.
 

AO54 said:
Graduating has everything to do with academics. If you don't like my Kevin Love comparison--obviously he was formerly a college athlete, Is Tyus Jones going to stay all 4 years if he comes to the U? We are only really interested in keeping him eligible, not making sure he graduates or is taking the toughest courses.

The NCAA cares about eligibility rules because it is made up of college presidents who want their college to be known for academics first and foremost. It's absolutely silly to say that UCONN is getting an unfair athletic advantage just because it happens that their athletes are less serious about their studies.
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No one said anything about anything you're talking about here. Who are you responding to? Did you mean to put this in another thread?
 



AO54 said:
It's absolutely silly to say that UCONN is getting an unfair athletic advantage just because it happens that their athletes are less serious about their studies.
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P.S. This sentence, in particular, is 100%, and laughably, wrong. Do you know anything at all about the NCAA in general or the portion of its rulebook that pertains to academics in particular?
 

dpodoll68 said:
No one said anything about anything you're talking about here. Who are you responding to? Did you mean to put this in another thread?
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Read your post again, then mine, and if you can't see the reference to your post, check yourself for signs of University of Wisconsin degrees.
 

AO54 said:
Read your post again, then mine, and if you can't see the reference to your post, check yourself for signs of University of Wisconsin degrees.
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"Graduating has everything to do with academics."

No one said otherwise. Again, who are you talking to? We're talking about cheating, and specifically academic cheating. Graduating or not graduating has nothing at all to do with cheating. I don't know why graduation was even brought into the conversation.

"We are only really interested in keeping him eligible, not making sure he graduates or is taking the toughest courses."

WHO SAID OTHERWISE?!?!?!?!?!? By definition, if you want him eligible, you want him to not cheat. Period. If he cheats, he's ineligible. Period.
 

We have a better shot at Wayne Seldon then we do Vaughn.
 



dpodoll68 said:
"Graduating has everything to do with academics."

No one said otherwise. Again, who are you talking to? We're talking about cheating, and specifically academic cheating. Graduating or not graduating has nothing at all to do with cheating. I don't know why graduation was even brought into the conversation.

"We are only really interested in keeping him eligible, not making sure he graduates or is taking the toughest courses."

WHO SAID OTHERWISE?!?!?!?!?!? By definition, if you want him eligible, you want him to not cheat. Period. If he cheats, he's ineligible. Period.
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You brought up the APR with UCONN which has everything to do with academics and graduating. The conversation is about the relationship between academics and basketball. Your point is that because the NCAA has a rule regarding academics that it necessarily means that team gained a competitive advantage. My point is that the NCAA is interested in appearing to be academically serious and all rules do not necessarily mean one team has gained an unfair competitive advantage.

If the NBA decided to make a rule that every player must have a certain ACT score or have graduated college, would that mean that suddenly the stupid teams had previously had an unfair competitive advantage?
 

I definitely think we have a better chance at Tyus than Vaughn. Tyus has talked about how important his family is to him, he's said "Minnesota will stay on my list," his brother really likes the Gophers, etc. We haven't heard a lot of that from Vaughn.
 

AO54 said:
You brought up the APR with UCONN which has everything to do with academics and graduating.
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I brought it up to invalidate your opinion that "it's not an academic competition" and show that said opinion was wrong, because it is indeed an academic as well as athletic competition. You went off on several ridiculous tangents implying that not graduating and cheating are somehow linked according to the NCAA.

AO54 said:
The conversation is about the relationship between academics and basketball.
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Close, but the conversation is actually about the relationship between academic cheating and basketball. Graduating or not graduating has nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with academic cheating.

AO54 said:
Your point is that because the NCAA has a rule regarding academics that it necessarily means that team gained a competitive advantage.
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Yes, and that point is unequivocally, and undebatably, correct.

AO54 said:
all rules do not necessarily mean one team has gained an unfair competitive advantage
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Again, you are wrong. By definition, if the NCAA has become involved, it is inherently an issue of unfair competitive advantage. Cite me one NCAA academic rule that has nothing to do with the prevention of unfair competitive advantages. I'll be waiting.

You can keep saying this until you're blue in the face, but it will still be wrong, each and every time, no matter how many times you say it.

AO54 said:
If the NBA decided to make a rule that every player must have a certain ACT score or have graduated college, would that mean that suddenly the stupid teams had previously had an unfair competitive advantage?
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No, because they were operating under previous, and different, rules. Look up ex post facto. In addition to apparently knowing nothing about NCAA academic rules, you are clearly lacking an elementary understanding of basic general legal principles as well.
 

The fact that the NCAA has linked the academic competition with the basketball competition does not mean that the cheating on academics gives you an advantage in the basketball competition. I don't deny that the NCAA links Basketball and academics, just that the link is not because of competitive advantage gained by having poor students. The NCAA could make a rule tomorrow that disallowed teams of a certain religion from competing. That doesn't mean that certain religions have a competitive basketball advantage over another.
 

AO54 said:
The fact that the NCAA has linked the academic competition with the basketball competition does not mean that the cheating on academics gives you an advantage in the basketball competition.
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Yes, it does. If it didn't, the NCAA would have no jurisdiction. I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand about this. The only jurisdiction the NCAA has over academics is pertinent to gaining and maintaining eligibility for athletic competition.

AO54 said:
I don't deny that the NCAA links Basketball and academics, just that the link is not because of competitive advantage gained by having poor students.
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And, once again, you are incorrect.

AO54 said:
The NCAA could make a rule tomorrow that disallowed teams of a certain religion from competing.
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Yes, and it would get thrown out by the court so fast your head would spin. (Assuming you meant "players", and not "teams".

By the way, how does a team (a non-living, collective entity) have a religion?

AO54 said:
That doesn't mean that certain religions have a competitive basketball advantage over another.
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Correct, because there are no NCAA rules governing religion. There are many, however, governing academic integrity and performance.
 

Here's what it boils down to. Team A and Team B both have the full allotment of 13 scholarship players. They are conference rivals and running 1-2 in all of the preseason media predictions. Each team has 2 scholarship players who are committing academic fraud. Team A gets caught, and those 2 players are kicked off the team, meaning Team A has to play with only 11 scholarship players the rest of the season. Team B does not get caught, and they get to finish out the remainder of the season with their full complement of scholarship players. I would love for you to explain to me how illegally having 13 players on your squad vs. 11 on the other squad is not an issue of "competitive advantage". This ought to be good.
 

You're incredibly dense. The point about the religion rule was not about the religion aspect, just that something unrelated to basketball could have a rule made about it.

Scher was at least pointing to the opportunity cost of the time spent studying/in class. My argument is that the marginal benefit from working out an extra couple hours instead of going to class is very very small. So insignificant that a rule governing that time is a waste. If Tyus or Rashad goes to Duke and takes hard classes versus taking easy classes/cheating at the U, is he going to be a better/worse basketball player because of the cheating or difficult classes? He's not going to reach some other basketball level because he's loafing at the U versus studying at Duke. Some might even say that the discipline that you learn from your studies in school actually would improve your game.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Here's what it boils down to. Team A and Team B both have the full allotment of 13 scholarship players. They are conference rivals and running 1-2 in all of the preseason media predictions. Each team has 2 scholarship players who are committing academic fraud. Team A gets caught, and those 2 players are kicked off the team, meaning Team A has to play with only 11 scholarship players the rest of the season. Team B does not get caught, and they get to finish out the remainder of the season with their full complement of scholarship players. I would love for you to explain to me how illegally having 13 players on your squad vs. 11 on the other squad is not an issue of "competitive advantage". This ought to be good.
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The academic rule and basketball are not linked by default, the NCAA had to create that link. If you take away the rule, is there a competitive disadvantage if Team A didn't commit academic fraud?

Substitute "academic fraud" with "pickle fraud" as in Team B ate the same amount of ncaa-determined illegal pickles as Team A, but was not caught. If there was no pickle rule, and Team A didn't eat any of the pickles, would Team A be at a competitive disadvantage?
 

If we have a better shot at Tyus then we do at Vaughan....we're not getting either.
 


AO54 said:
The academic rule and basketball are not linked by default, the NCAA had to create that link. If you take away the rule, is there a competitive disadvantage if Team A didn't commit academic fraud?

Substitute "academic fraud" with "pickle fraud" as in Team B ate the same amount of ncaa-determined illegal pickles as Team A, but was not caught. If there was no pickle rule, and Team A didn't eat any of the pickles, would Team A be at a competitive disadvantage?
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How the hell did "All Things Rashad" get to "Pickle Fraud"?????
 

I heard Rashad really likes pickles. We should get the fried pickle guys from the fair to open a booth at Williams.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
How the hell did "All Things Rashad" get to "Pickle Fraud"?????
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Because about 3 pages back, some Negative Nelly said we've never been to a Final Four. LOL


Seriously, we better have a good year on the court this year, because otherwise there's not a whole lot else to sell. Nothing exciting seems to be happening with recruiting right now, the practice facility is still a vague dream, Tubby seems half-retired, we've had an alarming number of transfers, and the last several teams have failed to live up to expectations.

But it's college basketball. Basically one or two great players can change the entire momentum of a program in one year.
 

WanderingGopher said:
Because about 3 pages back, some Negative Nelly said we've never been to a Final Four.
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It's not negative at all. It's factual. If anything, it's positive because I want to earn a legitimate Final Four appearance, and not be resigned to thinking that the only way we can get one is to cheat.
 

dpodoll68 said:
It's not negative at all. It's factual. If anything, it's positive because I want to earn a legitimate Final Four appearance, and not be resigned to thinking that the only way we can get one is to cheat.
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It's rather funny that people rip Cal to no end because Derrick Rose had someone else take his ACT (In high school - not basketball related right?) and Camby receiving 40K for his families groceries (also not basketball related i think) and yet continue to glorify the Gophers for cheating academically in college.
 

dpodoll68 said:
It's not negative at all. It's factual. If anything, it's positive because I want to earn a legitimate Final Four appearance, and not be resigned to thinking that the only way we can get one is to cheat.
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Actually, it isn't. It's great that you don't condone cheating and if you want to say we didn't deserve it that's fine, but the fact is the Gophers did play in the Final Four. In fact I might even have video evidence somewhere in my house. Cheating doesn't change what actually took place. The NCAA doesn't have some magical wizard who can decide what does and what does not happen on a given day. If something happens, it happens. There's nothing that you, me, or the NCAA can do to go back in time and change that, regardless of whether it was legal or not. There were not 3 teams in the Final Four that year as much as you might like to think that.
 


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