2025 Minnesota High School Football Thread

[Some guy]

Easiest way to av

Easiest way to avoid it all is a straight QRF seed. Its non bias and most sections are in a straight QRF seeding format already.

If a tie breaker is needed it could be as easy as

head to head
Record Vs Like opponents
Strength of schedule - Total win percentage of the teams you played.
Coin flip

QRF is straight up dumb. All you have to do is look at the QRF in 6a to know it’s dumb.

Can’t believe any section uses it.

a maroon division team hasn’t beat a non maroon team in at least 3 years.
Like three of the games in three years have been within two scores.

It has Hopkins and Eastview rated ahead of Lakeville North and Wayzata.

I can’t tell you how it’s broken. But if it’s that broken how can you trust it in other classes with even less crossover?

 

[Ranger692]

QRF is straight up dumb. All you have to do is look at the QRF in 6a to know it’s dumb.

Can’t believe any section uses it.

a maroon division team hasn’t beat a non maroon team in at least 3 years.
Like three of the games in three years have been within two scores.

It has Hopkins and Eastview rated ahead of Lakeville North and Wayzata.

I can’t tell you how it’s broken. But if it’s that broken how can you trust it in other classes with even less crossover?

Its definitely not perfect. I was just using it as a tool. But I think almost all sections use it, for all sports.

 

[ecoperson]

I think you guys are all missing the point. I want to see GREAT games in the state tournament. I think we get the correct state champs, but the state isn't awarded with the games we should or could get at the highest level. But I guess we can continue to hand out participation trophies to all corners of the state just to appease people's feelings.

You want more tickets sold? Send 16 teams to the state tournament. You want more people to attend the state championship games, guarantee the best teams are there. You want more people to pay for the NSPN games, double the teams playing in the 1st round of state with good games.

Until then we will have close games in some sections and then blowouts in the quarter finals when good teams play teams that are just ok

I get what you are saying but sometimes the 'best' teams over the course of a season are not really the 'best' teams at the end of the year. March Madness, for example, is a hit because of the opportunity for 'lesser' teams to beat the big boys.

It is entirely possible for a team to come out of a 'poor' section and perform well at the state tournament. I have also seen many teams come out of 'great' sections and stink it up. Sometimes all of the teams in a 'great' section are perceived to be better simply based on reputation when, in fact, the top teams from other sections can compete just as well.

 

[Some guy]

Its definitely not perfect. I was just using it as a tool. But I think almost all sections use it, for all sports.

You are incorrect

Unless by “use it” you mean “look at it before a coaches vote”

 

[MaxyJR1]

Nobody is equipped to stop the passing game the way Moorhead runs it. And if it’s 3rd and 5, they just hit Mack on a slant or hitch and it’s money.

It’s crazy. I’ve watched them multiple times and they have an answer for everything. Defenses can’t get off the field in 3d or 4th down. Now they go into perfect weather conditions.

 

[Ranger692]

You are incorrect

Unless by “use it” you mean “look at it before a coaches vote”

Currently
9P
7 qrf seeded sections
A
5 qrf seeded sections
2A
5 qrf seeded sections
3A
8 qrf seeded sections
4A
3 qrf seeded sections
5A
2 qrf seeded sections

So 30 of the 48 sections use qrf to seed for the section brackets in football

 

[Some guy]

Currently
9P
7 qrf seeded sections
A
5 qrf seeded sections
2A
5 qrf seeded sections
3A
8 qrf seeded sections
4A
3 qrf seeded sections
5A
2 qrf seeded sections

So 30 of the 48 sections use qrf to seed for the section brackets in football

You said almost all in all sports

30/48 isn’t even close to almost all
There are 52 sections if you include 6a

30/52 is 58%
Not “almost all”

 

[Ranger692]

I dont have

You said almost all in all sports

30/48 isn’t even close to almost all
There are 52 sections if you include 6a

30/52 is 58%
Not “almost all”

I don't have time to run through every sport and every section... 6A is also completely different set up in football... But a quick look through baseball and its a high majority in the lowest class to use QRF, same with class A in basketball so unless Soccer or tennis its 100% coaches vote I stand by more sections use QRF to seed than don't.

 

[Some guy]

I dont have

I don't have time to run through every sport and every section... 6A is also completely different set up in football... But a quick look through baseball and its a high majority in the lowest class to use QRF, same with class A in basketball so unless Soccer or tennis its 100% coaches vote I stand by more sections use QRF to seed than don't.

I have no idea if more sections do or dont
I do know saying almost all sections use it is wrong

6a is a completely different set up but the seeding of the sections is the same

 

[Ranger692]

I get what you are saying but sometimes the 'best' teams over the course of a season are not really the 'best' teams at the end of the year. March Madness, for example, is a hit because of the opportunity for 'lesser' teams to beat the big boys.

It is entirely possible for a team to come out of a 'poor' section and perform well at the state tournament. I have also seen many teams come out of 'great' sections and stink it up. Sometimes all of the teams in a 'great' section are perceived to be better simply based on reputation when, in fact, the top teams from other sections can compete just as well.

How does your statement make the 16 team bracket not an even better idea then?

I keep seeing people make arguments against it and your statements are actually proving why its a good idea...

All of you keep saying that these teams deserve a shot, I would like to see 8 more in the bracket and you guys are all saying that's a bad idea with no reasoning why, except for a possible travel issue. More teams, more underdogs, more chance to get the best teams in. If you were good enough to get to the section championship, you may just be good enough to get to the state championship.
I have never said it should just be the 8 best, always that it should get seeded at the 16 level... Incorporating another 8 teams to possibly get to the championship games SHOULD just make a better more even tournament at the end.


The "We've always done it that way" crowd is the only one to not show up yet. To that I ask how is the horse you ride to work doing?

 

[LeftofThaDial]

How does your statement make the 16 team bracket not an even better idea then?

I keep seeing people make arguments against it and your statements are actually proving why its a good idea...

All of you keep saying that these teams deserve a shot, I would like to see 8 more in the bracket and you guys are all saying that's a bad idea with no reasoning why, except for a possible travel issue. More teams, more underdogs, more chance to get the best teams in. If you were good enough to get to the section championship, you may just be good enough to get to the state championship.
I have never said it should just be the 8 best, always that it should get seeded at the 16 level... Incorporating another 8 teams to possibly get to the championship games SHOULD just make a better more even tournament at the end.


The "We've always done it that way" crowd is the only one to not show up yet. To that I ask how is the horse you ride to work doing?

How long are you going to argue this subject without one person agreeing with you, or even giving a post of yours a like. We are sorry the team you coach lost.

 

[Ope3]

How does your statement make the 16 team bracket not an even better idea then?

I keep seeing people make arguments against it and your statements are actually proving why its a good idea...

All of you keep saying that these teams deserve a shot, I would like to see 8 more in the bracket and you guys are all saying that's a bad idea with no reasoning why, except for a possible travel issue. More teams, more underdogs, more chance to get the best teams in. If you were good enough to get to the section championship, you may just be good enough to get to the state championship.
I have never said it should just be the 8 best, always that it should get seeded at the 16 level... Incorporating another 8 teams to possibly get to the championship games SHOULD just make a better more even tournament at the end.


The "We've always done it that way" crowd is the only one to not show up yet. To that I ask how is the horse you ride to work doing?

So previously you were arguing that the current format has a "participation trophy" element to it yet you want to double the State Tournament field. That would include 8 more participating teams incapable of Winning their Section.

Uffda.

 

[Ranger692]

So previously you were arguing that the current format has a "participation trophy" element to it yet you want to double the State Tournament field. That would include 8 more participating teams incapable of Winning their Section.

Uffda.

Kind of taking what I have been saying the entire time out of context.

First off I would like to see the best 8 teams at the quarter final level.


To get the best 8 teams to the quarterfinals a seeding at 16 is what I have been arguing for the entire time.

You could call that round of 16 what ever you wanted. Section champion ship maybe and the round prior to that is the Sub-Section Championship like there was years ago in some other sports.

All I was referring to when getting regional representation at the state tournament is that you could have the 45th best team in the state there while other much better teams aren't represented.

How long are you going to argue this subject without one person agreeing with you, or even giving a post of yours a like. We are sorry the team you coach lost.

If I am remembering correctly this was a MaxyJR1 theory from last year, and it had a ton of people talking about how its a viable solution to a team like BOLD last season... This forum is not a great representation of how a majority feels one way or another on any subject regarding MN HS football. how many poster are on this thread, maybe 40? So sure, maybe there isn't support from the few people who read this over the past few days. BUT what would be interesting is to have some format options voted on by all School District administration and not these so called member schools who are only looking out for themselves in most cases.

 

[denguegopher]

1. this may have been posted elsewhere and may be password blocked, but the message is the Roman Voss was too much for Caledonia:

No. 1 ranked player and team take down Caledonia

Jackson County Central star Roman Voss shows his skills as Huskies dismantle Caledonia in the state football quarterfinals.

www.postbulletin.com

 

[MNVCGUY]

1. this may have been posted elsewhere and may be password blocked, but the message is the Roman Voss was too much for Caledonia:

No. 1 ranked player and team take down Caledonia

Jackson County Central star Roman Voss shows his skills as Huskies dismantle Caledonia in the state football quarterfinals.

www.postbulletin.com

Voss is a man among boys at the 2A level. Would be fun to see how he could do against the bigger schools but chances are he would dominate there as well. Dude is just a special athlete. Can't wait to see what he can do once he gets here.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Voss is a man among boys at the 2A level. Would be fun to see how he could do against the bigger schools but chances are he would dominate there as well. Dude is just a special athlete. Can't wait to see what he can do once he gets here.

Watched a bunch of the game and he is huge.



Thursday
9P
Hills-Beaver Creek 11-0 vs Fertile-Beltrami 8-3 1pm
Kittson County Central 11-0 vs Hillcrest Lutheran 11-0 4pm
4A
Marshall 11-0 vs Orono 8-3 10:30am
6A
Edina 7-4 vs Minnetonka 9-2 7pm

Friday
2A
JacksonCC 11-0 vs Eden Valley Watkins 9-2 9am
Holdingford 12-0 vs Goodhue 11-0 4:30pm
4A
Grand Rapids 10-1 vs Kasson-Mantorville 10-1 11:30am
5A
St Thomas Acad 11-0 vs Spring Lake Park 11-0 2pm
6A
Lakeville South 9-2 vs Moorhead 7-4 7:30pm

Saturday
1A
Minneota 11-0 vs Mahnomen-Waubun 11-0 9am
Breckenridge 12-0 vs Murray County Central 9-2 11:30pm
3A
Waseca 11-0 vs Delworth-G-F 9-2 2pm
Annandale 11-0 vs Mpls. North 11-0 4:30pm
5A
Elk River 9-2 vs Chanhassen 10-1 7pm

 

[DinkytownDelight]

Voss is a man among boys at the 2A level. Would be fun to see how he could do against the bigger schools but chances are he would dominate there as well. Dude is just a special athlete. Can't wait to see what he can do once he gets here.

They need to bring back the old Southwestern conference and we would have had a Jackson County Central vs. Marshall match up!

 

[MaxyJR1]

They need to bring back the old Southwestern conference and we would have had a Jackson County Central vs. Marshall match up!

It's crazy how these towns have grown in population disparity. The South Central Conference used to be

St. James
Fairmont
Waseca
Blue Earth
St. Peter
New Ulm
United South Central

Many are now part of Big South

SCC conference is now
Lake Crystal
St. Clair
LeSueur Henderson
Minnesota Valley Lutheran
Maple River
Sibley East

 

[Random Guy 12]

Kind of taking what I have been saying the entire time out of context.

First off I would like to see the best 8 teams at the quarter final level.


To get the best 8 teams to the quarterfinals a seeding at 16 is what I have been arguing for the entire time.

You could call that round of 16 what ever you wanted. Section champion ship maybe and the round prior to that is the Sub-Section Championship like there was years ago in some other sports.

All I was referring to when getting regional representation at the state tournament is that you could have the 45th best team in the state there while other much better teams aren't represented.


If I am remembering correctly this was a MaxyJR1 theory from last year, and it had a ton of people talking about how its a viable solution to a team like BOLD last season... This forum is not a great representation of how a majority feels one way or another on any subject regarding MN HS football. how many poster are on this thread, maybe 40? So sure, maybe there isn't support from the few people who read this over the past few days. BUT what would be interesting is to have some format options voted on by all School District administration and not these so called member schools who are only looking out for themselves in most cases.

I certainly understand your point. I'm from the SE and over the last 20-25 years we've seen the AA state title game basically played in the section 1AA championship game a good number of times. Caledonia, Chatfield, and Triton have consistently been some of the best programs in the state in AA. It's unfortunate that some of those great games weren't state title games but at the same time fans in this part of the state knew it and were able to see them when it happened.

 

[DinkytownDelight]

It's crazy how these towns have grown in population disparity. The South Central Conference used to be

St. James
Fairmont
Waseca
Blue Earth
St. Peter
New Ulm
United South Central

Many are now part of Big South

SCC conference is now
Lake Crystal
St. Clair
LeSueur Henderson
Minnesota Valley Lutheran
Maple River
Sibley East

Agreed. Old Southwest conference schools were all essentially in 2A besides Marshall and Worthington. Playing Marshall was always a good litmus test for the smaller schools!

 

[MaxyJR1]

Agreed. Old Southwest conference schools were all essentially in 2A besides Marshall and Worthington. Playing Marshall was always a good litmus test for the smaller schools!

They are now in the Big South which is basically the old Southwest and South Central conferences with Belle Plaine and Tri-City. They split it into big and small schools for non football sports.

One division is
Belle Plaine
Marshall
New Ulm
Waseca
St. Peter
Tri-City United
Worthington

The other
Blue Earth
Fairmont
Jackson
Luverne
Pipestone
Redwood Valley
St. James
Windom

 

[mcrow47]

Since Hawley won only one game in the regular season, the folks in the section are pretty surprised that they've won two playoff games.

Sure, just saying that if you weren't paying attention to the season and saw Hawley vs Barnesville you would probably think nothing of it as over the past couple decades that was probably the two most commonly playing to go to state. Though, I don't remember when they both moved up to AA but even so, you get the idea. It's kind of like if you see Hutch and Marshall playing off to go to state you just expect that to be the case most seasons until recently.

 

[mcrow47]

QRF is straight up dumb. All you have to do is look at the QRF in 6a to know it’s dumb.

Can’t believe any section uses it.

a maroon division team hasn’t beat a non maroon team in at least 3 years.
Like three of the games in three years have been within two scores.

It has Hopkins and Eastview rated ahead of Lakeville North and Wayzata.

I can’t tell you how it’s broken. But if it’s that broken how can you trust it in other classes with even less crossover?

QRF isn't dumb. It's not perfect but not dumb. It's a way to help so bias is less of an issue. We all know of teams every year that get higher seeds than deserved because their name carries weight. So if yo factor in QRF it helps take some of that out.

Most of the time teams close in QRF are similar quality teams. Good rule of thumb is teams within 15-20 QRF points are pretty similar.

Now looking at class 4A QRF got the sections winners right. Only 2 number 1 in their section by QRF not to make it to state were Holey Angels and Byron but they both lost to teams close in QRF to them and had played close games against them earlier in the year.

Looking a Class A: Only 2 #1 by QRF teams didn't make it and they both lost to teams close in QRF.

In AA: only one #1 by QRF didn't go to state and it was because Holdingford and Pillager had virtually the same QRF.

In AAA: only 1 team didn't make it to state as #1 in QRF and that was Albany but they played a close game with Litchfield early in the season and 13 points in QRF difference.

So this tells me QRF is actually pretty solid.

And so far in state QRF is 12-4 in predicting wins in class A-AAAA.

 

[Some guy]

QRF isn't dumb. It's not perfect but not dumb. It's a way to help so bias is less of an issue. We all know of teams every year that get higher seeds than deserved because their name carries weight. So if yo factor in QRF it helps take some of that out.

Most of the time teams close in QRF are similar quality teams. Good rule of thumb is teams within 15-20 QRF points are pretty similar.

There are fewer than 60 teams a class
So here you are saying that we use it for seeding even though it can barely distinguish between a top third team (20) and bottom third team (40)

Now looking at class 4A QRF got the sections winners right. Only 2 number 1 in their section by QRF not to make it to state were Holey Angels and Byron but they both lost to teams close in QRF to them and had played close games against them earlier in the year.

Looking a Class A: Only 2 #1 by QRF teams didn't make it and they both lost to teams close in QRF.

In AA: only one #1 by QRF didn't go to state and it was because Holdingford and Pillager had virtually the same QRF.

In AAA: only 1 team didn't make it to state as #1 in QRF and that was Albany but they played a close game with Litchfield early in the season and 13 points in QRF difference.

So this tells me QRF is actually pretty solid.

And so far in state QRF is 12-4 in predicting wins in class A-AAAA.

It’s pretty easy to go 12-4 simply picking the team with more wins. Sorry if I’m not impressed

 

[mcrow47]

There are fewer than 60 teams a class
So here you are saying that we use it for seeding even though it can barely distinguish between a top third team (20) and bottom third team (40)

It’s pretty easy to go 12-4 simply picking the team with more wins. Sorry if I’m not impressed

I already posted data showing that usually that is not the case. There are going to be outliers at times.

Also, are you so sure Hopkins isn't as good or better than Lakeville North? They didn't have any common opponents.

Hopkins lost Edina who is still playing, East Ridge (won opening round), Woodbury (won opening round), STMA (Won 2 in the playoffs). Lakeville North didn't beat anyone good either.

And you're pissing an moaning about 5-6 spots difference? There are 32 in the class and Hopkins is like 22 and Eastview 25. So not even sure what you're talking about. Wins mean something too. Maybe Lakeville North and Wayzata played a tougher schedule but winning a game against a bad team should mean more than getting your ass whipped by a good team.

Just seems odd to go after QRF about 4 teams at the bottom that all got their asses kicked in the playoffs....turns out QRF may have been right on all 4 accounts..huh...funny how that worked out.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I already posted data showing that usually that is not the case. There are going to be outliers at times.

Also, are you so sure Hopkins isn't as good or better than Lakeville North? They didn't have any common opponents.

Hopkins lost Edina who is still playing, East Ridge (won opening round), Woodbury (won opening round), STMA (Won 2 in the playoffs). Lakeville North didn't beat anyone good either.

And you're pissing an moaning about 5-6 spots difference? There are 32 in the class and Hopkins is like 22 and Eastview 25. So not even sure what you're talking about. Wins mean something too. Maybe Lakeville North and Wayzata played a tougher schedule but winning a game against a bad team should mean more than getting your ass whipped by a good team.

Just seems odd to go after QRF about 4 teams at the bottom that all got their asses kicked in the playoffs....turns out QRF may have been right on all 4 accounts..huh...funny how that worked out.

6A is completely different. The teams with relief are not eligible to be seeded above 7 in their section.

Lakeville North would beat those teams and it's been proven time and time again that the relief teams do not beat teams without relief. There are roughly 20 competitive teams in 6A and 12 that are not each season.

Wayzata beat the relief team by 42.
Lakeville North beat Eagan 17-0 and didn't play any relief teams
Eagan beat their relief team by two touchdowns.
Hopkins was 4-0 in relief games by an average of over 10 points per game
They were 0-4 in non relief games by an average of over 25 points per game.
STMA beat Wayzata 15-14 and beat Hopkins by 36.

At the end of the regular season Hopkins had a QRF ahead of 10 teams including
Rogers(Tied), Eagan, White Bear Lake, Lakeville North, Wayzata and Anoka.

 

[mcrow47]

6A is completely different. The teams with relief are not eligible to be seeded above 7 in their section.

Lakeville North would beat those teams and it's been proven time and time again that the relief teams do not beat teams without relief. There are roughly 20 competitive teams in 6A and 12 that are not each season.

Wayzata beat the relief team by 42.
Lakeville North beat Eagan 17-0 and didn't play any relief teams
Eagan beat their relief team by two touchdowns.
Hopkins was 4-0 in relief games by an average of over 10 points per game
They were 0-4 in non relief games by an average of over 25 points per game.
STMA beat Wayzata 15-14 and beat Hopkins by 36.

At the end of the regular season Hopkins had a QRF ahead of 10 teams including
Rogers(Tied), Eagan, White Bear Lake, Lakeville North, Wayzata and Anoka.

Right but the point is if you look at QRF for 6A may not be as accurate as it is for the rest of the classes but IDK if I would argue about a 1 win team's seeding no matter who they played. Clearly neither Wayzata or Lakeville North were top 20 team this year.

I get that they played tough schedules but winning games matters too. If they were 4 win teams then maybe it's something to argue about.

 

[maroonfive]

It's crazy how these towns have grown in population disparity. The South Central Conference used to be

St. James
Fairmont
Waseca
Blue Earth
St. Peter
New Ulm
United South Central

Many are now part of Big South

SCC conference is now
Lake Crystal
St. Clair
LeSueur Henderson
Minnesota Valley Lutheran
Maple River
Sibley East

I remember when United South Central was Wells-Easton.

 

[Some guy]

I already posted data showing that usually that is not the case. There are going to be outliers at times.

Also, are you so sure Hopkins isn't as good or better than Lakeville North? They didn't have any common opponents.

Hopkins doesn’t think Hopkins can compete and that’s why they’re in the relief section.
Last time they held a non relief team to under 35 was Oct 2021
The team they lost to while allowing 28 was an Eagan team winning their third game in 40 tries.

Hopkins lost Edina who is still playing, East Ridge (won opening round), Woodbury (won opening round), STMA (Won 2 in the playoffs). Lakeville North didn't beat anyone good either.

And you're pissing an moaning about 5-6 spots difference? There are 32 in the class and Hopkins is like 22 and Eastview 25. So not even sure what you're talking about. Wins mean something too. Maybe Lakeville North and Wayzata played a tougher schedule but winning a game against a bad team should mean more than getting your ass whipped by a good team.

Just seems odd to go after QRF about 4 teams at the bottom that all got their asses kicked in the playoffs....turns out QRF may have been right on all 4 accounts..huh...funny how that worked out.

QRF isn’t very good.
It’s fine. There may not be a better option. But it doesn’t do anything except count wins and wins by teams you have wins against


So basically it’s the old ncaa RPI but it has an 8 game sample instead of 30

 

[mcrow47]

Hopkins doesn’t think Hopkins can compete and that’s why they’re in the relief section.
Last time they held a non relief team to under 35 was Oct 2021
The team they lost to while allowing 28 was an Eagan team winning their third game in 40 tries.



QRF isn’t very good.
It’s fine. There may not be a better option. But it doesn’t do anything except count wins and wins by teams you have wins against


So basically it’s the old ncaa RPI but it has an 8 game sample instead of 30

It is good as far as rating formulas go. None of them are 100% accurate but if you just go look at the results of the playoffs over the last several years it's pretty accurate. Now the issue is 6A is a whole different thing and the way things work with relief section...ect kinda skews things. This is why in my examples I used AAAA-A as I think for most of the rest of the classes it's actually pretty good.

So if you don't like it for 6A, I understand that but it's not a bad formula to assist in seeding. Nobody should use any formula as the only criteria for seeding but I think it's a good piece of data to put teams in order then debate with other data to see if teams positions should be adjusted from there. You should also look at head to head and margins of victory and loss vs common opponents. However, when starting the seeding process if you order them by QRF it gives you a starting point.

I know for soccer they typically do use QRF and it works pretty well but it's not the only factor. Like teams close in QRF they usually will dig deeper into win margin and common opponents. But if there's a big gap they don't. It has come out pretty fair that way for soccer. This past season my daughter's team ended up getting a lower seed than than their QRF. They lost to the other team earlier in the year but had a higher QRF and same record but our team played a much tougher schedule. But the QRF was only like 5 points difference so the HtH overrode the 5 point difference. That seemed fair enough to me.