FIRE GREG HARBAUGH

[Some Day...Maybe]

Defense gave up 467 yards to a team that hasn’t won a big 10 game this year and you’re telling me it’s all the OC’s fault?

Yes, you should pay attention. It’s points scored and points allowed that matter in sports contests. Our offense is averaging 17 points per game vs Power 4 competition. That is only better than Wisconsin in the BT. I would keep going but I know it won’t help.

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

Well when the offense goes 3 and out for the better part of the second half, how do you expect the D to hold out when they were on the field for that many plays.

The MSU offense scored 13 vs Indiana with a worse QB, and 17 vs MN with a better QB and the guy is focused on yards. Gave me a good laugh anyway.

 

[stocker08]

What was conservative about it?
Lindsey checking down?

Our number one called play was mesh yesterday in the pass game I would guess.
Is mesh a conservative play?



Being ineffective is not the same thing as being conservative

What do you call screen passes? Short mesh passes behind the sticks? We had very few downfield routes into the middle to the field. Almost everything downfield was to the sidelines/out of bounds.

Did you watch the game yesterday? Drake had multiple completions over the middle of the field where he put the ball in a tight window.

I would be all for a more dynamic/experienced OC but there is a balancing act to all this as well. Lindsey is a redshirt freshman and while he has played well for the most part he is still very young and teams are getting film on him and adjusting how they attack him. His inexperience definitely limits some of what the team can do on offense.

Execution is another key piece in all this. The play call can be great but if the QB makes a bad throw or receiver drops the ball or lineman misses a block the play isn't going to work. Happened on the first 3 and out of the game, the play call was perfect, the back was wide open, Drake just missed him. Drake makes a good throw we get the first down and the drive continues. So it all goes hand in hand.

Did you read my comment? It's less about whether he threw to the middle of the field and more when. The majority of those passes weren't until late in the game when we absolutely needed to score. One of the few I can remember earlier in the game was the pass to Smith in the first quarter. Otherwise it was a whole lot of screens, short crossing patterns, and fades to the sidelines.

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

Quite a bit a speculation on GH about whether the Gophers can hold on to Drake in this NIL age. Some people offering up the fact that his family is wealthy, and money won't be a factor in keeping him a Gopher. However, why wouldn't he decide that there are a lot better places for his development as a quarterback? Pretty sure throwing half your passes towards the sideline for a one yard gain could get a bit frustrating. A program with more dynamic receivers; a better offensive line; and, especially, an imaginative coordinator tempt him more than money.

All very good points.

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

The gophers were super conservative in the KC era
So now when we suck everyone assumes it’s because we are conservative

But sometimes when you suck it is because you suck…not because you were too aggressive or too conservative

QB missed a lot of throws yesterday that could’ve extended drives.
They were pretty aggressive on first and second down throwing over half the time. They ran effectively on first down and ineffectively on second down.


The third quarter is the most frustrating. Zero first downs.
They threw on 4/6 plays.
One was a completion a half yard short of the stick on mesh. The wideout needed to get the first down. That pissed me off.

First drive of 4th quarter they punted. They threw on 5 of 6 play calls.

Second drive of 4th quarter they punted. Threw on 3/4 play calls.


I just don’t know what people thought was conservative.
39 pass attempts.
23 rush attempts

4 rush attempts were QB sacks or scrambles.
So 43 pass calls and 19 run calls.
If anything they were too aggressive when the starting RB had 49 yards on 15 carries plus a 48 yard carry.

Agreed, our OC is not good at all at establishing a run game, or knowing how to. We are a pass first offense. We are primarily a pass offense.

 

[Some guy]

What do you call screen passes? Short mesh passes behind the sticks? We had very few downfield routes into the middle to the field. Almost everything downfield was to the sidelines/out of bounds.

A mesh combo has a post and a dig and two drags. That’s the mesh.
Sorry you don’t like screen?
Almost everything? Anything to quantify that?

If dig is covered on mesh should he throw it anyways?

Did you read my comment? It's less about whether he threw to the middle of the field and more when. The majority of those passes weren't until late in the game when we absolutely needed to score. One of the few I can remember earlier in the game was the pass to Smith in the first quarter. Otherwise it was a whole lot of screens, short crossing patterns, and fades to the sidelines.

Well I prefer to work with data rather than your vibes. Not gonna go breakdown the game. Did go break down the box score play by play already. Can’t refute your feelings.

Is number 2 running a slot fade conservative?
Is the QB checking down a sign of good coaching or bad coaching?
How many fades and screens were there?
I remember 3-5 screens that were ineffective. I remember like 2 fades. One was a slot fade.
That leaves another 30 passes that werent those.

 

[Some guy]

Agreed, our OC is not good at all at establishing a run game, or knowing how to. We are a pass first offense. We are primarily a pass offense.

Being able to run the ball makes games like yesterday more certain wins.

Would love a coordinator who could build an effective run game. Holding out hope that this is still the transition from primary zone to gap. But now it’s halfway through another year. That’s a long transition. This may be the new normal.

 

[Word]

How nice would it be if we had a receiver that was even Daniel Jackson/Chris Autman-Bell level? Our receivers have no separation and can't catch contested balls.

 

[stocker08]

I just don’t know what people thought was conservative.
39 pass attempts.
23 rush attempts

4 rush attempts were QB sacks or scrambles.
So 43 pass calls and 19 run calls.
If anything they were too aggressive when the starting RB had 49 yards on 15 carries plus a 48 yard carry.

Please. We had to have run double digit screens.....or damn near. May as well be RUTM for how effective those have been.

A mesh combo has a post and a dig and two drags. That’s the mesh.
Sorry you don’t like screen?
Almost everything? Anything to quantify that?

If dig is covered on mesh should he throw it anyways?

Well I prefer to work with data rather than your vibes. Not gonna go breakdown the game. Did go break down the box score play by play already. Can’t refute your feelings.

Right.....two deep routes to the sidelines and a drag or two short of the sticks. Not seeing anything to refute what I've been saying. Dink and dunk passing for a few yards a strike, ineffective screen passes (we actually threw two of these in a row at one point for a total of ONE YARD), and then deeper passes to the sidelines. Safe to the point of handicapping our own offense.

You're not going to go "break down the box score play by play" because you know that I'm right. It's almost nothing but "short pass left", "short pass right", "short pass middle".

 

[matt]

You claimed we ran it on every second and ten in the first half
We threw it on two

You said that doesn’t count
Then said that I was the one who moved the goal posts

You might be an idiot

I have already said that you are right that we passed on 2nd and 10 in the 2 minute drill. Yet, here are quotes from you in your first post countering the statement:

There was a pass attempt on the first second down of the game?

They threw the ball 4/7 snaps in the third quarter.

First down was 8 pass 6 runs.

Of the 6 first down runs 2 were over 10 yards and 1 was a touchdown.

Literally none of that is relevant to the point being discussed.

You might be an idiot.

 

[WAGopher]

This definitely gets lost on people. Drake checks down to a shorter throw quite a bit, that comes from inexperience and not wanting to make the more risky throw so instead opting for the safer one.

I agree Drake checks down to the short throw too often, but it also comes from receivers not getting open, which is most of the time.

 

[CentralGopher]

Yes, you should pay attention. It’s points scored and points allowed that matter in sports contests. Our offense is averaging 17 points per game vs Power 4 competition. That is only better than Wisconsin in the BT. I would keep going but I know it won’t help.

We played teams that are terrible because they can’t move the ball or put it in the end zone yet gave up nearly 500 to them and you’re telling me I should pay attention? Sure pal.

 

[upnorthkid]

I agree Drake checks down to the short throw too often, but it also comes from receivers not getting open, which is most of the time.

It seems he learned that from Brosmer. Can happen to QBs when the game feels fast, which is what is happening to Drake. He goes there too fast when not under pressure at times.
Our passing scheme doesn’t seem to make the defense cover the full length and width of the field consistently. That’s more my knock on it as we get too condensed/cut the field in half either vertically or horizontally and that’s much easier to defend and going to lead to those check downs getting used more too

 

[WAGopher]

It seems he learned that from Brosmer. Can happen to QBs when the game feels fast, which is what is happening to Drake. He goes there too fast when not under pressure at times.
Our passing scheme doesn’t seem to make the defense cover the full length and width of the field consistently. That’s more my knock on it as we get too condensed/cut the field in half either vertically or horizontally and that’s much easier to defend and going to lead to those check downs getting used more too

Good observations, especially on Drake prematurely feeling pressured to check down. A few times he never saw a wide open receiver because he had already abandoned the progression.

 

[SeaBee_Gopher]

A lot of interesting posts! So many ways to go with what's wrong with this offense:

1) O-line is the biggest problem and makes everyone else look worse.
2) I actually like our receivers athleticism for once. Not elite, but not garbage for once. The bar is low. They are terrible at contested catches. Most are young. Can they be coached up over time? That seems like a teachable trait to a degree. You can't really teach a guy to be fast or quick.
3) I agree with Texan Gopher that Drake does seem to play better when we play faster. I don't know if you can do this all game because you may gas your defense if you go three-and-out, but it should be mixed in because the three-and-outs would likely occur less. It also helps your bad OL because the DL tires out more quickly and can't sub. Unfortunately, this does not fit PJ's conservative nature. I give him credit for throwing more because he has to. The next step is playing faster because you have to.
4) A lot of speculation on Drake in the portal, but I agree with some others that we are overestimating his demand. He has potential, but that's a dangerous word. So did Aidan Chiles! MSU sat him because he's struggling and Milivojevic could have bolted this offseason. Another QB with "potential". They didn't want to risk losing him. There are many more quality QBs playing now in P4 because they can't be stashed on the bench anymore and can easily be pulled up from G5 or FBS. Ole Miss pulled their stud QB Trinidad Chambliss from D2 & that forced their other stud, Austin Simmons, to the bench. It's not like Drake will be the only good portal eligible QB this offseason on a team that is average.
5) Is it just me or does Drake throw really soft, floaters too often? He does this often on those short throws many of you have mentioned and intermediate throws. By the time it gets there, so have multiple defenders. He throws a very catchable ball, but sometimes it's too catchable. Does that make sense? If he throws with a little more pace, more often, he'll have less contested catches and give his guys more time to actually make a move. Max seemed to really have throwing the ball "just right" for the given situation down. AK was the opposite of Drake. All fastballs.
6) BigSchmidty17 made a good point about our asst coach pay being 18/18. You get what you pay for. My hope is we have better stability than normal this offseason, lose very few coaches & players, and they just improve a lot. I know hope isn't a strategy, but it seems more likely than hoping for us to dump big money on players or coaches because that isn't our history.

 

[Allshade]

Our opponents this year, and every year, have receivers sit down wide open in the zone 15 yards downfield for a first down. Time and time again. We never do it. Any receiver can run that route. I look for it every game. It never happens. I don't get it.

 

[Allshade]

I agree Drake checks down to the short throw too often, but it also comes from receivers not getting open, which is most of the time.

Im no expert, but I will always take the position that receivers most often aren't open cause of route design, not ineptitude or lack of skill or speed.

 

[Gopherchase]

How nice would it be if we had a receiver that was even Daniel Jackson/Chris Autman-Bell level? Our receivers have no separation and can't catch contested balls.

Contested balls I agree with 100% but your scheme sometimes decides whether a receiver gets open or not too so it’s hard to say it’s on the player or the coach, it’s probably a combination there. I would lean coach more because of our game plans in general seem to kind of stink.

 

[50PoundHead]

It seems he learned that from Brosmer. Can happen to QBs when the game feels fast, which is what is happening to Drake. He goes there too fast when not under pressure at times.
Our passing scheme doesn’t seem to make the defense cover the full length and width of the field consistently. That’s more my knock on it as we get too condensed/cut the field in half either vertically or horizontally and that’s much easier to defend and going to lead to those check downs getting used more too

I used to gripe about Limegrover's Pop Warner passing game and it seems he is somehow teleporting into the Gophers' offensive planning sessions. I think your point regarding Lindsey's inexperience is valid, but this group of receivers leaves a lot to be desired. One thing that we all have to remember is that other teams do scout us and what might have been working early in the season is being taken away from us and we aren't able to adjust. Hence, the checkdowns,

 

[gopherdudepart2]

It seems he learned that from Brosmer. Can happen to QBs when the game feels fast, which is what is happening to Drake. He goes there too fast when not under pressure at times.
Our passing scheme doesn’t seem to make the defense cover the full length and width of the field consistently. That’s more my knock on it as we get too condensed/cut the field in half either vertically or horizontally and that’s much easier to defend and going to lead to those check downs getting used more too

Good analysis sir!

 

[mngg11]

So, my understanding is that we have a couple of plays in pocket when we go up to the line of scrimmage, and Drake can "kill" the original play and opt to the other. Is that a Drake decision or a Harbaugh decision via the radio? Is the offense too complicated? Is Drake audibling out when he shouldn't? Harbaugh?

My original understanding was that Harbaugh runs a pro style offense that can really rock if you have the right personnel as well as prep a QB for the next level.

 

[Tech Machine]

I think you have to “fix” the offensive line, before anything gets better. The straight ahead run blocking is as poor as it has been in many years. Really limits the options. Way too many no gain plays.

 

[Some guy]

So, my understanding is that we have a couple of plays in pocket when we go up to the line of scrimmage, and Drake can "kill" the original play and opt to the other. Is that a Drake decision or a Harbaugh decision via the radio? Is the offense too complicated? Is Drake audibling out when he shouldn't? Harbaugh?

My original understanding was that Harbaugh runs a pro style offense that can really rock if you have the right personnel as well as prep a QB for the next level.

There are 2a high school coaches who’ll let the QB kill plays so if we don’t that’s scary

 

[Ski-U-Ham]

So, my understanding is that we have a couple of plays in pocket when we go up to the line of scrimmage, and Drake can "kill" the original play and opt to the other. Is that a Drake decision or a Harbaugh decision via the radio? Is the offense too complicated? Is Drake audibling out when he shouldn't? Harbaugh?

My original understanding was that Harbaugh runs a pro style offense that can really rock if you have the right personnel as well as prep a QB for the next level.

I think the radios need to be cut off before Drake would "kill," but not 100% positive

 

[MaxyJR1]

I think the radios need to be cut off before Drake would "kill," but not 100% positive

Radios go out at 15 seconds on play clock I believe.

 

[MaxyJR1]

My biggest issue with coordinators is lack of experience outside of mostly working for Fleck.

 

[gopherbadgerman]

Sir, we are bad WITH Darius Taylor. He's hasn't exactly lit the world on fire the last two years.....the constant little bubble screens and blocking scheme is atrocious, no identity on offense and the rotating play calls with no imagination kills us...

We are worse without him. He’s by far the best back on the roster. But hence he can’t stay healthy

 

[Great Plains Gopher]

I have no way shape or form think that he is. But admit, especially without Darius Taylor we are just bad on offense no matter what you call.

We should have Emmett Johnson, who leads the B10 in rushing and is #2 in the nation at nearly 6 yards per carry. A Minnesota "Mr. Football" from Minneapolis, he wasn't recruited by PJ, yet wanted to play here. Recruiting is the problem.

 

[gopherbadgerman]

We should have Emmett Johnson, who leads the B10 in rushing and is #2 in the nation at nearly 6 yards per carry. A Minnesota "Mr. Football" from Minneapolis, he wasn't recruited by PJ, yet wanted to play here. Recruiting is the problem.

He’d look great here I’ll admit that. He had no big offeres when Nebraska offered him. It was a miss for sure, by a lot of teams.

 

[50PoundHead]

We should have Emmett Johnson, who leads the B10 in rushing and is #2 in the nation at nearly 6 yards per carry. A Minnesota "Mr. Football" from Minneapolis, he wasn't recruited by PJ, yet wanted to play here. Recruiting is the problem.

He wasn't recruited by anyone else either.

The problem here is that Fleck (and Kill before him for that matter) has an RB1 mentality and that guy is fed the ball over and over again. Fleck doesn't seem to understand the concept of load management.