Zebrowski

[AEmerson40]

This is a pessimistic thread, forgive me. But.

I started a thread sometime last year about Coach Z but can't find it for whatever reason. Anyway, my point then was that we had had three quarterbacks in three years who had showed just about zero improvement from year 1 to year 2. In fact, we've had three years in a row where a freshman QB (not as tainted by the QB coaching at the U?) has overtaken the starter (at least temporarily).

I know we are only two games into the season, and I hope Mitch improves dramatically, but it seems like the trend is continuing for a fourth year. I am failing to understand why our QB coach and now passing game coordinator is not being held responsible for our ATROCIOUS passing attack, especially when we now actually have some decent talent at the skill positions for our QB to throw to.

Last thing I'll say is that you don't have to look any further than Nelson's first start against Purdue in 2012 to his last start against Syracuse to see the effect our QB coaching has had. The program is being held back by this position, and it needs to be figured out one way or the other - we just need someone competent!!

 

[Sparlimb]

This is a pessimistic thread, forgive me. But.

I started a thread sometime last year about Coach Z but can't find it for whatever reason. Anyway, my point then was that we had had three quarterbacks in three years who had showed just about zero improvement from year 1 to year 2. In fact, we've had three years in a row where a freshman QB (not as tainted by the QB coaching at the U?) has overtaken the starter (at least temporarily).

I know we are only two games into the season, and I hope Mitch improves dramatically, but it seems like the trend is continuing for a fourth year. I am failing to understand why our QB coach and now passing game coordinator is not being held responsible for our ATROCIOUS passing attack, especially when we now actually have some decent talent at the skill positions for our QB to throw to.

Last thing I'll say is that you don't have to look any further than Nelson's first start against Purdue in 2012 to his last start against Syracuse to see the effect our QB coaching has had. The program is being held back by this position, and it needs to be figured out one way or the other - we just need someone competent!!

From what I can see, our QB's just aren't very talented (and weren't all that highly recruited either). Wasn't Leidner a 2 star recruit? Looks like it. I don't blame the coach, I blame the talent. Hackenberg would be eating large here.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

Can someone get coach Z the A&M QB coaches phone number? Maybe he could learn something.

 

[Governor Sibley]

Phil could've been a perfectly functional B10 QB.

The offensive staff broke him.

 

[Sparlimb]

Phil could've been a perfectly functional B10 QB.

The offensive staff broke him.

I think at this point, it's fair to wonder whether Phil had the mental makeup to ever be good.

 

[#2Gopher]

I don't blame the coach either. I would think that a good recruit would realize that we have great players but just need a good quarterback to lead them.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Phil could've been a perfectly functional B10 QB.

The offensive staff broke him.

I agree to a point. Injuries have played a role in much of the back and forth at QB.

 

[Stan]

This is a pessimistic thread, forgive me. But.

I started a thread sometime last year about Coach Z but can't find it for whatever reason. Anyway, my point then was that we had had three quarterbacks in three years who had showed just about zero improvement from year 1 to year 2. In fact, we've had three years in a row where a freshman QB (not as tainted by the QB coaching at the U?) has overtaken the starter (at least temporarily).

I know we are only two games into the season, and I hope Mitch improves dramatically, but it seems like the trend is continuing for a fourth year. I am failing to understand why our QB coach and now passing game coordinator is not being held responsible for our ATROCIOUS passing attack, especially when we now actually have some decent talent at the skill positions for our QB to throw to.

Last thing I'll say is that you don't have to look any further than Nelson's first start against Purdue in 2012 to his last start against Syracuse to see the effect our QB coaching has had. The program is being held back by this position, and it needs to be figured out one way or the other - we just need someone competent!!

Nice post and well thought out. I agree completely. I know its taboo to criticize anyone on Kill's staff, but if you look at the position improvements since this staff took over, QB is honestly the only position that hasn't improved under this staff. That's a complement to the staff overall as all other positions have improved, but this one is glaring, as of now, still hope things click for Mitch.

 

[Governor Sibley]

It's the number one job of the Offensive Coordinator to build a package around the strengths of a QB.

But our offensive staff turns our QBs into bleeping head cases.

Phil comes in with a swagger. He wants to throw and dish. A natural! But a year later he's terrified of screwing up.

Who the eff broke him?

 

[fryguy22]

Phil could've been a perfectly functional B10 QB.

The offensive staff broke him.

During the 4 game BIG winning streak last year or....?

 

[jaymil]

I think the generally poor QB performance the past few years is due to a handful of reasons that I'd rather not go into detail about right now. To keep it short: injuries, transfers, QB recruiting philosophy, talent, offensive system/playcalling, and yes, coaching. I don't think Coach Z should take all of the blame. Some? Sure, I would agree with that. It has been a combination of things though in my opinion.

 

[Ski-U-Mah24]

So there's also the fact that we've only had young quarterbacks the past couple years. I'll reserve judgement until we have upperclassman at the position.

 

[Sparlimb]

I think the generally poor QB performance the past few years is due to a handful of reasons that I'd rather not go into detail about right now. To keep it short: injuries, transfers, QB recruiting philosophy, talent, offensive system/playcalling, and yes, coaching. I don't think Coach Z should take all of the blame. Some? Sure, I would agree with that. It has been a combination of things though in my opinion.

agreed. Lack of talent at WR and OLine has also contributed. We just haven't been overly talented and are still only moderately talented.

 

[jaymil]

agreed. Lack of talent at WR and OLine has also contributed. We just haven't been overly talented and are still only moderately talented.

Yep, add that to the list as well.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

One of the issues is that Limegrover tries to run a dual threat QB offense with a quarterback who is not a dual threat. Leidner isn't a threat on the ground. He will power his way to a few yards on the ground but he isn't gonna create something with his feet.

Gray was this offense's ideal quarterback but we needed someone who has been playing like that since he was 18. Not someone who tried to learn as a junior.

 

[MaxyJR1]

To be fair, coach can't throw the ball. WR's are open. Leidner is a tad late in some decisions.

 

[AEmerson40]

I agree there are many factors to the problem as several of you have pointed out. And maybe it's a Zebrowski-Kill-Limegrover problem, but we have guys coming in to this position getting worse. I think the position coach needs to be held accountable for that. Again though, I hope Mitch improves markedly and proves us all wrong.

 

[MaxyJR1]

You really think guys are getting worse. How can you tell?

 

[GophersInIowa]

I don't think you can point the finger at just one thing. It's probably a bunch of things: coaching, play calling, lack of talent (both the QBs and receivers), and probably some mental aspects as well.

I'm generally a glass half full type of guy so I'm not ready to give up on Leidner yet by any means. He's only two starts into his sophomore year. Still a lot of time to potentially get a lot better.

 

[Indi1006]

Limegrover and Z are not good and they will be ours for the long term so let's hope one of our QBs can rise above.

 

[Unregistered User]

In fact, we've had three years in a row where a freshman QB (not as tainted by the QB coaching at the U?) has overtaken the starter (at least temporarily).

Really? Can you list these?

 

[Unregistered User]

Please note that I am burdened by actually knowing an effing thing or two about this retarded sport.

 

[t-docious]

lets say everything pans out with brew crew. Shortell is the heir-apparent. Are we ok with that?

I trust in the stafff but honestly, I could throw a better ball than leidner, no joke. Too many ducks, and that to me is a headcase. I think 'moose' has a gunslinger mentality and i would like to see the coaches let him sling it.

Lot of people on this board like to talk about how the coaches like to recruit to their system, but can they adapt to the recruits they land?? time will tell.

for the record, the sky is not falling for me. Everyone else looked like **** and it appears that the new norm for the big ten is mediocre, bordering 2 tier. Sad, however thats just what i am seeing.

 

[AEmerson40]

You really think guys are getting worse. How can you tell?

Nelson's last three games were probably the worst three of his career. Leidner played better in the bowl game last year than he has in the first two games against worse opponents with more offensive skill around him. And Gray and Shortell showed very few signs of improvement in their second year in the system.

I think we're too early in the season to know where exactly Leidner is at, but he has definitely underwhelmed so far. Hoping it's just because of the small sampling, but I'm doubting it because of the pattern that we have going on.

 

[AEmerson40]

Really? Can you list these?

Nelson took over the starting position from Gray and Shortell in 2012 (who both had a year or two to develop), and Leidner started some games in place of Nelson last year (who was supposed to be the guy after a full offseason and fifteen bowl practices), not to mention ended the year as the QB in the bowl game because Nelson was so bad. I lump the Shortell-Gray QB controversy into this (though Shortell played because of Gray injuries and was a sophomore when there was a bit of controversy, so I guess it doesn't neatly count) because in both 2011 and 2012, we expected Gray to have improved greatly with a full offseason (and then two) of developing as a QB. Instead, he got hurt because he had to do the only thing he was really good at, which was running, and Shortell came in and looked better passing the ball (most notably against W Michigan and Syracuse).

 

[Gopher028]

I know Phil's tit is in the ringer for kicking a kid in the head while he was down...but i've seen some of the most stand-up and great people in the
world, do some of the dumbest $#@! while drunk. I'm sure he didn't want to be sharing time, wanted the confidence the coaches have shown
Mitch, maybe he wasn't the leader Mitch was....but he could pass better than ML.

The point is moot......

but we need to figure this out. Maybe Strev can play B1G football, maybe not. I think the blame is equally shared with ML and the staff

Why is Limegrover only calling for 3 yd or 15 yd passes? Why not do timed slant routes or curls or outs? (3-step drop, to a 5-7 yd slant route.)
I mean, i'm watching EIU and MTSU do those very same things against our very good DB group, and they're working! Why this pocket throwing crap?
Why not get our WRs more involved than just running deep routes and blocking, why not more jet-sweeps, since they worked so well
last year? Is this Limegrover forgetting success or Kill putting the axe to it? These, are the questions to be asked...

 

[BreakTheGopherCurse]

Limegrover and Z are not good and they will be ours for the long term so let's hope one of our QBs can rise above.

I agree completely. I wasn't in love with Mason, but Weber, Gray, Nelson and maybe Leidner would have been very successful under Mason and his crew. This has EVERYTHING to do with the offensive system, where they want the ball thrown and the pass patterns. Ever noticed that this offense only calls for the QB to throw the ball in 20% of the field width. You should chart the passes some game like I do. It's laughable. We don't use 80% of the width of the field in our pass plays. Easiest passing game to defend in FBS football. They know we won't throw to most parts of the field. No QB could succeed with these patterns. Mason and crew had decent pass plays and knew how to get receivers very open with talent no better than we have now. Nobody wants to talk about this.

 

[mplsbadger]

Do the Gophers need an all conference QB to achieve their goals? I don't think so. Wisconsin's Rose Bowl QB's in the Alvarez/Bielema era are Bevell, Samuel, Bollinger, Tolzein, Wilson, and Phillips.

Other than Russel Wilson, nobody was throwing darts in that group. Hit open guys on play action, don't fumble, don't throw interceptions. I think #7 might be able to do that. Give him some time.

 

[Unregistered User]

Nelson took over the starting position from Gray and Shortell in 2012 (who both had a year or two to develop), and Leidner started some games in place of Nelson last year (who was supposed to be the guy after a full offseason and fifteen bowl practices), not to mention ended the year as the QB in the bowl game because Nelson was so bad. I lump the Shortell-Gray QB controversy into this (though Shortell played because of Gray injuries and was a sophomore when there was a bit of controversy, so I guess it doesn't neatly count) because in both 2011 and 2012, we expected Gray to have improved greatly with a full offseason (and then two) of developing as a QB. Instead, he got hurt because he had to do the only thing he was really good at, which was running, and Shortell came in and looked better passing the ball (most notably against W Michigan and Syracuse).

Yeah...that's where I thought you were going, but in reality, when you stated:

In fact, we've had three years in a row where a freshman QB (not as tainted by the QB coaching at the U?) has overtaken the starter (at least temporarily).

What you really meant was 1 year. Last year, when Mitch took over for Nelson. The other starts were due to injury.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Nelson's last three games were probably the worst three of his career. Leidner played better in the bowl game last year than he has in the first two games against worse opponents with more offensive skill around him. And Gray and Shortell showed very few signs of improvement in their second year in the system.

I think we're too early in the season to know where exactly Leidner is at, but he has definitely underwhelmed so far. Hoping it's just because of the small sampling, but I'm doubting it because of the pattern that we have going on.

Players have good games and they have bad ones. I don't think a few games here and there is a good way to measure if a player is getting better or worse overall.

Nelson also had below average throwing games against UNLV and New Mexico St. at the beginning of the year last year. Then he had some good ones in the middle of the year. Does that mean he started off bad, then got better, then got worse?