Zach Johnson at Gophers Illustrated - Leidner Take

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Tackle4loss

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'Leidner is not a failure. But there is no way he should have been a 3+ year starter and the best QB on the roster for that long.' So, he waited til a guy is at the extreme tail end of his career to tell us that he saw it clearly.
 

One of the Jerry Kill's biggest failures? His inability to convince big time High School Quarterbacks to come to Minnesota.Here they could turn around and hand the ball off, keep it and run or, if all else fails, try to complete a pass.

Not surprising that Johnson wouldn't have wanted to tell Jerry that to his face.
 

Iceland12 said:
One of the Jerry Kill's biggest failures? His inability to convince big time High School Quarterbacks to come to Minnesota.Here they could turn around and hand the ball off, keep it and run or, if all else fails, try to complete a pass.

Not surprising that Johnson wouldn't have wanted to tell Jerry that to his face.
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Yep. This has been Jerry's biggest failure at the U. The talent on our roster has improved drastically since he has arrived. He can compete with the big boys physically. However, at the end of the day, our QB play has been unacceptable for far too long. We also have a major issue at WR.
 

Mitch is a handful of throws away from being a lifelong legend in MN. The edge between success and failure is super sharp.


I don't know who these folks are who think great QBs are a dime a dozen. Same goes folks who act as if they just now figured out who Mitch is and what he can do / sometimes doesn't ...
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
Mitch is a handful of throws away from being a lifelong legend in MN. The edge between success and failure is super sharp.


I don't know who these folks are who think great QBs are a dime a dozen. Same goes folks who act as if they just now figured out who Mitch is and what he can do / sometimes doesn't ...
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Good point, but the point was that with Kill's Offense he never had a chance to get one anyway. Or any kid he was good at throwing the ball, or even catching it, and wanted to continue doing it in college.

You disagree?
 


The problem with recruiting/having a great qb goes back far beyond Kill's tenure. Someone probably knows the stat, but have we had a qb actually drafted (not an undrafted free agent) since 1961?
 

Tackle4loss said:
'Leidner is not a failure. But there is no way he should have been a 3+ year starter and the best QB on the roster for that long.'
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I would agree with this. Leidner takes a lot of heat, but it's not his fault that he is our best option at this point. I always felt like Kill should have stuck with Nelson a few years ago, but he would be gone now so I'm not sure how much it would have made a different this year anyway.
 

Leidner has spent three + years throwing to mediocre wide receivers. The best WR of the Kill era was a walk-on who quit the team due to advice from his Mom's friend.

Leidner is mediocre but so is what is around him.
 

Go Gophers Rah said:
The problem with recruiting/having a great qb goes back far beyond Kill's tenure. Someone probably knows the stat, but have we had a qb actually drafted (not an undrafted free agent) since 1961?
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Respectively submitted, that's not the way to look at it. That would assume that the kid coming in to Minnesota's historic run first offense would be turned into a great Passing QB. Not sure how that could happen. Cory Sauter was probably the last guy to have a shot at it. He came into the "Air Wacker" Offense and looked pretty good. Then new coach came and tried to turn him into an Option QB...
 



A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
Mitch is a handful of throws away from being a lifelong legend in MN. The edge between success and failure is super sharp.


I don't know who these folks are who think great QBs are a dime a dozen. Same goes folks who act as if they just now figured out who Mitch is and what he can do / sometimes doesn't ...
Click to expand...


He's not. He never had the ability to make those throws so he's not close to being a legend.

Great QBs are few and far between, but competent playmakers aren't. Other B1G teams have talent there consistently - even Purdue, NW, and Indiana.

We can be disappointed in this QB situation because it has played out exactly as we could have predicted given Mitch's early development trend.
 

Imagine if we had an Erik Decker or a Maxx Williams.

Holding everything constant with Mitch at the helm, good for at least 7-10 (or more) additional points a game.

Yes, it would be great to have a Drew Brees. But since Maxx left we've just not been able to fill that hole for the QB to work with.

BTW, great time in Lincoln (except for the end of course). The fans there do respect us as opponents. That in itself is progress for the program.
 

Iceland12 said:
Good point, but the point was that with Kill's Offense he never had a chance to get one anyway. Or any kid he was good at throwing the ball, or even catching it, and wanted to continue doing it in college.

You disagree?
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What would you say is the solution to "Kill's Offense"?

Throw more with QBs who can't?
 




SamSquatch said:
He's not. He never had the ability to make those throws so he's not close to being a legend.

Great QBs are few and far between, but competent playmakers aren't. Other B1G teams have talent there consistently - even Purdue, NW, and Indiana.

We can be disappointed in this QB situation because it has played out exactly as we could have predicted given Mitch's early development trend.
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He is all of a couple throws from being a legend.

I must have missed all those great QBs from Purdue, NW, and Indiana....
 

Iceland12 said:
Wouldn't answer huh? Never considered you a "clickbait" guy. My mistake.
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I was asking an honest question.... you raised the concern "but the point was that with Kill's Offense he never had a chance to get one anyway".

So what do you do?
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
I was asking an honest question.... you raised the concern.?
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Me too.

Good point, but the point was that with Kill's Offense he never had a chance to get one anyway. Or any kid he was good at throwing the ball, or even catching it, and wanted to continue doing it in college.

You disagree?
 

Iceland12 said:
Respectively submitted, that's not the way to look at it. That would assume that the kid coming in to Minnesota's historic run first offense would be turned into a great Passing QB. Not sure how that could happen. Cory Sauter was probably the last guy to have a shot at it. He came into the "Air Wacker" Offense and looked pretty good. Then new coach came and tried to turn him into an Option QB...
Click to expand...

Still can't figure out why running the option with a classic drop back passer with really limited running ability didn't work. It seemed like such a great strategy at the time....

It all comes down to recruiting, and QB recruiting under Kill/Claeys has not been good to this point. Mitch is what he is and was never going to be great, no matter how much some fans seem to think he should have developed into something more than the game manager that he is. Hopefully at some point here the staff finds a way to hit a home run at the most important position on the field.
 

The thing is ML has never been a complete QB. ML has regressed every year instead of getting better. Just watching Demry Croft, you can tell he has an arm that can bomb the football with a spiral. I dont know about you guys, but every time ML goes to throw the football, its a hold your breath moment.

Now, ML will be gone and we have Seth Green and Croft. Hopefully they can take us to the promised land. Tommy A. showed us a good QB can make the difference in the big games. ML is a QB that fails more than succeeds in those moments.
 

Iceland12 said:
Me too.

Good point, but the point was that with Kill's Offense he never had a chance to get one anyway. Or any kid he was good at throwing the ball, or even catching it, and wanted to continue doing it in college.

You disagree?
Click to expand...

What is there to agree or disagree with? You feel that offense made Mitch or anyone else complete fewer passes they made?

I don't get your concept there.
 

Winnipegopher said:
Leidner has spent three + years throwing to mediocre wide receivers. The best WR of the Kill era was a walk-on who quit the team due to advice from his Mom's friend.

Leidner is mediocre but so is what is around him.
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I agree with this take. However, there is just something different with the QB position. He has had no one to throw the ball to (you're 100% right and that is a huge problem), but Mitch has not played well. I'll always be a fan of Mitch. He has been tough and a class act guy during his entire time at the U. However, he has not been good. I have seen him miss a lot of wide open receivers. I have seen him make a lot of terrible decisions. I don't think Mitch has been less than a mediocore QB.
 

SamSquatch said:
He's not. He never had the ability to make those throws so he's not close to being a legend.

Great QBs are few and far between, but competent playmakers aren't. Other B1G teams have talent there consistently - even Purdue, NW, and Indiana.

We can be disappointed in this QB situation because it has played out exactly as we could have predicted given Mitch's early development trend.
Click to expand...

Did you even look at the stats of the QBs and teams you pointed out? Sounds like you quickly looked at a stack rank. They all have less wins than Gophs. IND and PUR QBs each have twice as many INTs as ML, have been sacked roughly three times more than ML, and have roughly the same QB rating.

Hmmm..
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
What is there to agree or disagree with? You feel that offense made Mitch or anyone else complete fewer passes they made?

I don't get your concept there.
Click to expand...

No and that was hardly the point. Check posts 2 & 3. Right before your first post. Apparently you think that high school players who are good at passing the ball or catching it would want to flock to a school that didn't want to throw the ball.

I don't get your rejection of that. Seems really simple. Wonder why you're having such a problem getting it.

One of the Jerry Kill's biggest failures? His inability to convince big time High School Quarterbacks to come to Minnesota.Here they could turn around and hand the ball off, keep it and run or, if all else fails, try to complete a pass."

"Good point, but the point was that with Kill's Offense he never had a chance to get one anyway. Or any kid he was good at throwing the ball, or even catching it, and wanted to continue doing it in college.

You disagree?"
 

Is Mitch a first round draft pick? It doesn't look like it, but when he has more than one reliable receiver he has been successful. A healthy Lingen would have made a huge difference in my opinion.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I agree with this take. However, there is just something different with the QB position. He has had no one to throw the ball to (you're 100% right and that is a huge problem), but Mitch has not played well. I'll always be a fan of Mitch. He has been tough and a class act guy during his entire time at the U. However, he has not been good. I have seen him miss a lot of wide open receivers. I have seen him make a lot of terrible decisions. I don't think Mitch has been less than a mediocore QB.
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I think this is a very fair take. To me, the frustrating thing is that you often times see signs like he was taking steps & progressing. Anybody who thinks he wasn't a good QB needs to watch the Nebraska game his sophomore year. He'd be down @ Wisconsin, but then pretty good against Missouri. And then last year, I think overall, he progressed, especially from the midpoint of the season on, with him really only playing poorly against Wisconsin the back half of the year. But this year hasn't been as good, in my eyes. I don't think he's been terrible, but the bottom line is in the 3 losses this year, he made extremely critical mistakes in two of them that a senior QB just should not be making (knowing the concussion against Iowa, I'm not going to throw that game in the same category).

He was not THE reason for the 3 losses, but I do think that when needed to step up, he just hasn't done it this year. Which is disappointing, because he seems to be a really likable guy and a guy that his teammates gravitate towards.

The plus side? He still has 3 more chances to do it, which I truly believe he can. He just needs to do it.
 

Iceland12 said:
No and that was hardly the point. Check posts 2 & 3. Right before your first post. Apparently you think that high school players who are good at passing the ball or catching it would want to flock to a school that didn't want to throw the ball.

I don't get your rejection of that. Seems really simple. Wonder why you're having such a problem getting it.

One of the Jerry Kill's biggest failures? His inability to convince big time High School Quarterbacks to come to Minnesota.Here they could turn around and hand the ball off, keep it and run or, if all else fails, try to complete a pass."

"Good point, but the point was that with Kill's Offense he never had a chance to get one anyway. Or any kid he was good at throwing the ball, or even catching it, and wanted to continue doing it in college.

You disagree?"
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I guess it is my turn to say "I didn't say that"?

I don't see many schools picking up great QBs.

What would Kill have had to do differently to say attract some (I think that's what you're getting at...)?
 

GopherFanatic19 said:
The thing is ML has never been a complete QB. ML has regressed every year instead of getting better. Just watching Demry Croft, you can tell he has an arm that can bomb the football with a spiral. I dont know about you guys, but every time ML goes to throw the football, its a hold your breath moment.

Now, ML will be gone and we have Seth Green and Croft. Hopefully they can take us to the promised land. Tommy A. showed us a good QB can make the difference in the big games. ML is a QB that fails more than succeeds in those moments.
Click to expand...

You sure about that?
 

PMWinSTP said:
Did you even look at the stats of the QBs and teams you pointed out? Sounds like you quickly looked at a stack rank. They all have less wins than Gophs. IND and PUR QBs each have twice as many INTs as ML, have been sacked roughly three times more than ML, and have roughly the same QB rating.

Hmmm..
Click to expand...

I did not because I'm referencing now and the recent past. A quick review of QBs on NFL rosters, on practice squads, or that have been drafted is enough to show the Gophs inability to obtain a competent playmaker vs other B1G squads. Also just watching the games and the clown show that has been our QB position.
 

This is what I would expect out of a 4 year starter, forget the amount of arm talent or lack thereof:
See the stacked box or blitz and check out of a run for a pass (to my knowledge he has never done this). If any D-coordinator has a brain they know that every single time he's ever changed a call at the line it has been to a RUTM.
Line up in shotgun, scan the defense, point out coverage and make checks to his WRs/TEs.
Recognize a blitz a make a change accordingly.
Scan the field for the open receiver instead of predetermining every throw (like Rodney Smith on Saturday's INT).
It seems like he still doesn't have an understanding of what is happening around him for some reason.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I agree with this take. However, there is just something different with the QB position. He has had no one to throw the ball to (you're 100% right and that is a huge problem), but Mitch has not played well. I'll always be a fan of Mitch. He has been tough and a class act guy during his entire time at the U. However, he has not been good. I have seen him miss a lot of wide open receivers. I have seen him make a lot of terrible decisions. I don't think Mitch has been less than a mediocore QB.
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Totally agree with this.

I know we don't have great receivers, but with our running game we get a lot of good looks deep that Leidner just plain misses in some way almost 100% of the time. How many times in his career has Leidner hit an open guy deep in stride which resulted in a TD? Now think of how many times someone has been open, but the receiver has to slow down to make the catch so he gets tackled?
 

I just feel that Zach Johnson is being disingenuous in acting like he saw it clearly for 3 years.
 

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