Youth Football

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monk10 said:
I did joke during soccer games with "that is why my kid is going to just play football".

** Goalie gets kicked in the head
** Heads bounce off each other trying to go for a header.
** Ball gets kicked into another kids head.
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My son played soccer this past fall and basketball the past 2 years and there have been more injuries than I ever saw in FB. The only 'real' injury any of our kids got in FB was a kid that hurt his knee when they were play fighting before warm ups.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I think FB is getting singled out on the concussion issue, when the risk of concussion is just as high in other sports. I've seen kids get concussions playing volleyball, hockey and basketball. Watch a basketball game, and see how many times kids' heads hit the court - and that's a bare head hitting a hardwood court. I knew a girl who drew a charge, hit the court and got a concussion mid-way through her sophomore year - and she never played another game. And yet, I don't see any hysterical articles crying out to do away with basketball.
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This is why people need to be careful about comparing media headlines to scientific fact.
Football is king in this country. Headlines that scare the crap out of parents get attention. If this was mostly attributed to rugby for example there would be no story, no outrage, no major motion picture, etc.
I last coached in MN a few years back but the MSHSL concussion online course I took had the #1 sport based upon % of participants and incidents for concussions was girls soccer at that point.
It's a big scary deal right now mostly due to mis-information and the nature of today's headline and short attention span driven society. Read that Mayo paper and it lays out a very interesting study, but doesn't conclude anything to the affect you'll see it reported as.
I actually think the damage knees and backs take in amateur sports is more common and debilitating. Those injuries occur in every sport and can be quality of life changing starting immediately.
 

golden said:
Football was a BIG part of my youth, and high school days. Some of my favorite memories are on the football field....but I'm torn on letting my son play. I feel as if I'm going to make a big mistake either way if I let him play or don't let him play. Not letting him play, at least I won't have as bad of regret than if I do let him play and it has a lasting effect on his brain.

http://bringmethenews.com/2015/12/0...-link-between-youth-sports-and-brain-disease/
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Keep in mind this coming from someone whose son's football career was ended by metals rods in both legs..........you should be more concerned about your son riding a bike.
 


Great topic, and a tough decision for parents of any child who has interest in playing. Like many previous posters, I played tackle football from middle school through my senior year of high school. I wish I could have played in college, but it was either go to a DIII school to play or go to the U for academics and science programs I was most interested in (I picked the U, and the continuing football dream died). I sustained only a few minor lower leg injuries throughout my career, and was a starter both ways every year I played. Nothing even remotely close to a concussion. So my experiences in youth football were overwhelmingly positive.

Fast forward 20 years. My son hit 5th grade and was interested in playing, but not overly so. His mother was a little reticent, but I decided to encourage him to take it seriously and see how he liked it. 2 years later, and its been a terrific decision for him, physically, socially, and developmentally. He had a bit of a culture shock his first summer of conditioning practices, but stuck with it, and ended up being his teams starting right guard, and found himself really loving the responsibilities of blocking for his friends in the backfield. He had a great year, made new friends, increased his personal confidence, and played well.

The next season, he built off that foundation, and began to get really passionate about playing. He started talking about being accountable for his responsibilities on the line, and started to develop a real pride in his assignments. By mid-year he was made a captain, and took that seriously, developing some burgeoning leadership qualities as well. He's now been through 2 full seasons, and never missed a snap on offense, and gotten into the mix on defense every game as well. Its been wonderful watching him grow and develop. I hope he continues on this trajectory, as it is helping to make him a well-rounded kid.

Yes, there is the specter of injury that looms over every game and practice. A few of his teammates have been held out of games per their very stringent concussion protocol. But the kids are continuously taught how to tackle properly, and the coaches have to attend clinics on concussion education and best teaching practices to prevent brain injury. I'm not naive to think my son can be totally protected by proactive coaching and injury protocols. I know the risk is there. But his growth and development in the sport and as a young man are worth that risk to me. If he ever felt that he didn't want to play because he was worried about injury, of course I would support his decision to step away.
 


Nate said:
Mine has never shown any interest in playing, and I haven't encouraged it either.
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Concussions happen in all sports. My sister's two kids played high school soccer. Three knees, two concussions, broken leg and messed up legs. My kids played hockey and football, we called the ambulance once and dealt with a concussion an a broken arm with hockey. As football moves to deal with football head injuries, one must understand that the technology of the sport will improve and head injuries will diminish. I would let my kids play any sport they wanted to even football. Those old guys from the old pro football era and even as late as the 80's have way more issues with other parts of their body that have led to early death and discomfort. I know a couple of Vikings from the late 70's and I can tell you their brains are fine but they cannot get out of bed in the morning without help and cannot climb stairs.
 

Gopher Bandanna Guy said:
Great topic, and a tough decision for parents of any child who has interest in playing. Like many previous posters, I played tackle football from middle school through my senior year of high school. I wish I could have played in college, but it was either go to a DIII school to play or go to the U for academics and science programs I was most interested in (I picked the U, and the continuing football dream died). I sustained only a few minor lower leg injuries throughout my career, and was a starter both ways every year I played. Nothing even remotely close to a concussion. So my experiences in youth football were overwhelmingly positive.

Fast forward 20 years. My son hit 5th grade and was interested in playing, but not overly so. His mother was a little reticent, but I decided to encourage him to take it seriously and see how he liked it. 2 years later, and its been a terrific decision for him, physically, socially, and developmentally. He had a bit of a culture shock his first summer of conditioning practices, but stuck with it, and ended up being his teams starting right guard, and found himself really loving the responsibilities of blocking for his friends in the backfield. He had a great year, made new friends, increased his personal confidence, and played well.

The next season, he built off that foundation, and began to get really passionate about playing. He started talking about being accountable for his responsibilities on the line, and started to develop a real pride in his assignments. By mid-year he was made a captain, and took that seriously, developing some burgeoning leadership qualities as well. He's now been through 2 full seasons, and never missed a snap on offense, and gotten into the mix on defense every game as well. Its been wonderful watching him grow and develop. I hope he continues on this trajectory, as it is helping to make him a well-rounded kid.

Yes, there is the specter of injury that looms over every game and practice. A few of his teammates have been held out of games per their very stringent concussion protocol. But the kids are continuously taught how to tackle properly, and the coaches have to attend clinics on concussion education and best teaching practices to prevent brain injury. I'm not naive to think my son can be totally protected by proactive coaching and injury protocols. I know the risk is there. But his growth and development in the sport and as a young man are worth that risk to me. If he ever felt that he didn't want to play because he was worried about injury, of course I would support his decision to step away.
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Thats where I am too. For me I'm also glad he hasn't played the last 2 years, just to expand his horizons a bit. I think kids should play multiple sports to A- stay active but also B- to explore their interests and talents. I have a nephew that's only played FB and always been a 'star' but this year he was an undersized frosh in HS and didn't have a great season. I've been trying to convince him that he'd be potentially great as a wrestler or in track because he is a great athlete but just short, but he's only concerned with FB as that's all he's ever played
 

Gopher Bandanna Guy said:
The next season, he built off that foundation, and began to get really passionate about playing. He started talking about being accountable for his responsibilities on the line, and started to develop a real pride in his assignments. By mid-year he was made a captain, and took that seriously, developing some burgeoning leadership qualities as well. He's now been through 2 full seasons, and never missed a snap on offense, and gotten into the mix on defense every game as well. Its been wonderful watching him grow and develop. I hope he continues on this trajectory, as it is helping to make him a well-rounded kid.
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Pride in assignments? Summer conditioning drills? This is exactly what is wrong with youth sports. You're describing a sixth-grader. I have a co-worker whose son started tackle in third grade this year and they practice three times a week and had summer drills. That's insane. I hate to pull the "in my day" card, but I started tackle football in fourth grade. One practice a week. One game a week for about two months. That was it. The same was true for all kid sports until you hit seventh grade, when it was four days a week practice, one game a week. I would have absolutely hated that kind of schedule as a kid, and I expect my parents would have as well. It's one thing I dread about my son getting into youth sports - the incredible time commitment, especially on weekends. Sports should be fun - not boot camp.

I'm like you. I played from 4th grade through 12th grade. Could have played small D3, but got an academic scholarship to a D2 school where I'd have been too small. I loved it, but with that kind of schedule at that age, I'd have likely burned out early.
 




discochris said:
Pride in assignments?
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I think you are over evaluating the word. I read it as the kid found passion and motivation for something and the father is allowing him to pursue it.

Reminds me of this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates/dp/1594484805

discochris said:
This is exactly what is wrong with youth sports.
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I don't know a parent who isn't disappointed in the number of practices and time commitment sports are requesting. I don't know when the turning point will be where culturally we say NO MORE. Unfortunately, it isn't now. And like rats to the cheese, we all sign are kids up and start the tour of racing our kids around to different sport activities. However, I do know 3 parents who stood on their principles with their oldest child not to sign kids up early and waited to late elementary/jr. high. The older kids quit playing because they were "terrible" compared to their peers. The parents joined the rat race with their younger kids. It sucks but I am one of those people that believes sports is part of the education of teaching my kid to be a valuable asset in society. So if you decide to join, you can wave as I race by :D.
 


My son has no interest in playing football, but if he did I would say no. With the evidence out there, we would just find other ways to learn the "lessons" football teaches - for example, just about every other sport.
 

Spoofin said:
My son has no interest in playing football, but if he did I would say no. With the evidence out there, we would just find other ways to learn the "lessons" football teaches - for example, just about every other sport.
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The evidence is incomplete right now. It's entirely possible every team sport will be implicated at some level to produce similar results as many have described here.
Brain science is very much a unexplored frontier. Headlines everywhere will have you thinking the story is told on this stuff, it's not.
 



discochris said:
Pride in assignments? Summer conditioning drills? This is exactly what is wrong with youth sports. You're describing a sixth-grader. I have a co-worker whose son started tackle in third grade this year and they practice three times a week and had summer drills. That's insane. I hate to pull the "in my day" card, but I started tackle football in fourth grade. One practice a week. One game a week for about two months. That was it. The same was true for all kid sports until you hit seventh grade, when it was four days a week practice, one game a week. I would have absolutely hated that kind of schedule as a kid, and I expect my parents would have as well. It's one thing I dread about my son getting into youth sports - the incredible time commitment, especially on weekends. Sports should be fun - not boot camp.

I'm like you. I played from 4th grade through 12th grade. Could have played small D3, but got an academic scholarship to a D2 school where I'd have been too small. I loved it, but with that kind of schedule at that age, I'd have likely burned out early.
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I don't think I necessarily agree with your position. I might if my son didn't always look forward to and enjoy his practices. I know when I was growing up, I was always a practice guy. Loved practice, every minute. Didn't mind conditioning and all the reps. Looked at it as an opportunity to compete directly against my teammates and improve. Never an inkling of burnout. Some people go all Allen Iverson on it. Not me. We'll see with my son.
 

Ole said:
The evidence is incomplete right now. It's entirely possible every team sport will be implicated at some level to produce similar results as many have described here.
Brain science is very much a unexplored frontier. Headlines everywhere will have you thinking the story is told on this stuff, it's not.
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Some folks require more evidence than others.
 

Spoofin said:
My son has no interest in playing football, but if he did I would say no. With the evidence out there, we would just find other ways to learn the "lessons" football teaches - for example, just about every other sport.
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I think everyone has their "no-way" sports as a parent. Mine is Hockey. The culture looks completely toxic and seems to teach the anti-lessons that you want in sports.
 

discochris said:
Pride in assignments? Summer conditioning drills? This is exactly what is wrong with youth sports. You're describing a sixth-grader. I have a co-worker whose son started tackle in third grade this year and they practice three times a week and had summer drills. That's insane. I hate to pull the "in my day" card, but I started tackle football in fourth grade. One practice a week. One game a week for about two months. That was it. The same was true for all kid sports until you hit seventh grade, when it was four days a week practice, one game a week. I would have absolutely hated that kind of schedule as a kid, and I expect my parents would have as well. It's one thing I dread about my son getting into youth sports - the incredible time commitment, especially on weekends. Sports should be fun - not boot camp.

I'm like you. I played from 4th grade through 12th grade. Could have played small D3, but got an academic scholarship to a D2 school where I'd have been too small. I loved it, but with that kind of schedule at that age, I'd have likely burned out early.
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Having 1 practice a week and expecting kids to play football is a waste of time and dangerous. You can't run many plays at all in that time AND teach kids how to block and tackle properly. And the truth is if that's what you want for your kid that's perfectly fine, he'll just likely be playing flag. My nephew is the same age as my son and a really good athlete too but his parents just aren't interested in anything that requires more than 2 days a week. Its fine and they find leagues for him to play in, its just always boring because he's so much better than the kids he's playing with that he always has to hold back. Almost all of the more talented kids are playing in the more competitive leagues. My son played soccer for the first time this past fall and it was the same thing. I wasn't going to shell out $400 and commit to 3-4 days a week because I had no clue if he was good enough to play club soccer so I signed him up for the standard league which was 1 practice and 1 game a week. After a season of him either sitting out the last 15 mns of games or only playing D because he'd already scored 4 goals (at least against the bad teams), I decided never again. Its not that he's great its just that all the kids at his level athletically were playing club soccer and while he had fun he definitely wasn't challenged. That's the trade off these days: put your kid somewhere where he'll be challenged and taught well and get better, or put him somewhere that's less strenuous but not very challenging
 

I played football through high school and five years of Division II football. I never received a concussion. My only football injuries other than bumps and bruises was a broken wrist in 10th grade. Meanwhile, playing intramural basketball I received a severe sprained ankle that required surgery and stitches.

Fast forward, I am now an Athletic Director at an area high school. In the past two years, athletes at my school have received the following concussions (I document all of them) - 3 in football, 2 in boys basketball, 1 in girls basketball, 1 in volleyball, and 3 other athletes received them in non-sport activities (4-wheeler, car accident, and riding a bike). We do not have hockey or soccer at my school. Based on my unscientific research, football does not seem much more dangerous than other activities. Devils advocate would say it could be all the repeated hits in football that do not result in concussions.

With all this being said, I would not talk my son out of playing football if he wants to play when he is older. I know personally that I have learned skills looking through a facemask that I haven't learned anywhere else in my life.

I would not be against eliminating youth football annd not letting kids play tackle until 8th or 9th grade, but then you are encouraging flag football where boys are running around without a helmet on.
 

oleboy41 said:
Having 1 practice a week and expecting kids to play football is a waste of time and dangerous. You can't run many plays at all in that time AND teach kids how to block and tackle properly. And the truth is if that's what you want for your kid that's perfectly fine, he'll just likely be playing flag.
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I don't believe that to be true at all, especially at the grade school level. The plays are (or should be) very rudimentary at that age. The whole notion of daily practices at the grade school level is a fairly recent phenomenon. I don't even recall it being the case ten years ago. And getting back to when I was that age, flag football wasn't even an organized activity. You played tackle (hell, we played tackle football with no equipment in the neighborhood up through about 7th grade) and I recall very few injuries, and no head injuries to speak of.
 

Back when I was young the coaches didn't have strict requirements on teaching safety. Now that I coach a significant part of practice time is teach technique of safe collision(blocking and tackling). This transition has happened in the last 10 years. So even a decade a go you could just get to practice and work on 4-8 plays and some defense and call it good. If you actually want to make the game safer you have to spend a lot more time on the teaching safe technique.
 

discochris said:
I don't believe that to be true at all, especially at the grade school level. The plays are (or should be) very rudimentary at that age. The whole notion of daily practices at the grade school level is a fairly recent phenomenon. I don't even recall it being the case ten years ago. And getting back to when I was that age, flag football wasn't even an organized activity. You played tackle (hell, we played tackle football with no equipment in the neighborhood up through about 7th grade) and I recall very few injuries, and no head injuries to speak of.
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If all you're running is 26 power and 41 dive what's even the point? Its just kids running into each other in the middle of the line. I've coached youth football and we ran really efficient practices and had a large playbook for youth football and didn't lose a game for 3 years. Even with that emphasis on efficiency we couldn't have taught more than a small handful of plays WELL while also making time to work on fundamentals which were probably taking 2/3 of our practice time.
 

This thread has given the opportunity to advertise the significant change in the approach of youth football. Unfortunately, we won't have any scientific results to validate the progress.
 

oleboy41 said:
If all you're running is 26 power and 41 dive what's even the point? Its just kids running into each other in the middle of the line. I've coached youth football and we ran really efficient practices and had a large playbook for youth football and didn't lose a game for 3 years. Even with that emphasis on efficiency we couldn't have taught more than a small handful of plays WELL while also making time to work on fundamentals which were probably taking 2/3 of our practice time.
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Hey congrats on your 10 year old football 3-peat!
 

oleboy41 said:
If all you're running is 26 power and 41 dive what's even the point? Its just kids running into each other in the middle of the line. <b>I've coached youth football and we ran really efficient practices and had a large playbook for youth football and didn't lose a game for 3 years. </b>Even with that emphasis on efficiency we couldn't have taught more than a small handful of plays WELL while also making time to work on fundamentals which were probably taking 2/3 of our practice time.
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Are you angling for the OC job?
 

oleboy41 said:
My son played soccer this past fall and basketball the past 2 years and there have been more injuries than I ever saw in FB. The only 'real' injury any of our kids got in FB was a kid that hurt his knee when they were play fighting before warm ups.
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I have 4 brothers and two sisters...

We all except one played 3 sports...

Football zero injuries .. Well except bruising .3 out of 4 brothers were starters for 3 years each at varsity level.
Basketball.. 3 ACL , broken thumb, dislocated shoulder, 3 bad ankles
Baseball .. Elbow surgery
Track .. Zero


They can do all these studies on football players.... I have yet to see one study of the everyday man...what there brain looks like????? From just everyday stuff.. When u were horsing around with your buddies, riding bike and took a spill, car accident, babies falling hitting head on floor when learning to walk.... falling down the stairs ...kids being kids at recess, sleding,ice skating on the pond... On and on... Give me the results on the very day man to prove its different???
 

gopherhoopsguy said:
I have 4 brothers and two sisters...

We all except one played 3 sports...

Football zero injuries .. Well except bruising .3 out of 4 brothers were starters for 3 years each at varsity level.
Basketball.. 3 ACL , broken thumb, dislocated shoulder, 3 bad ankles
Baseball .. Elbow surgery
Track .. Zero


They can do all these studies on football players.... I have yet to see one study of the everyday man...what there brain looks like????? From just everyday stuff.. When u were horsing around with your buddies, riding bike and took a spill, car accident, babies falling hitting head on floor when learning to walk.... falling down the stairs ...kids being kids at recess, sleding,ice skating on the pond... On and on... Give me the results on the very day man to prove its different???
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Hence the need for more research into all this. The only way to diagnose CTE is post mortam, and only if you're looking for it. All the NFL guys that you hear horror stories about had pretty obvious symptoms during life. They'll get more control brains as you suggest and figure out what causes this. Honestly it could be genetic for all we know, the Mayo study this thread started found some correlation in certain known brain disease genes.
 

gopherhoopsguy said:
I have 4 brothers and two sisters...

We all except one played 3 sports...

Football zero injuries .. Well except bruising .3 out of 4 brothers were starters for 3 years each at varsity level.
Basketball.. 3 ACL , broken thumb, dislocated shoulder, 3 bad ankles
Baseball .. Elbow surgery
Track .. Zero


They can do all these studies on football players.... I have yet to see one study of the everyday man...what there brain looks like????? From just everyday stuff.. When u were horsing around with your buddies, riding bike and took a spill, car accident, babies falling hitting head on floor when learning to walk.... falling down the stairs ...kids being kids at recess, sleding,ice skating on the pond... On and on... Give me the results on the very day man to prove its different???
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Thanks for the rundown on body injuries from your family. Of course the topic is really about concussions and brain injuries - not ACLs, thumbs, shoulders, ankles, or elbows. Maybe you didn't realize that due to playing football?

Are we really saying maybe playing football doesn't increase your chances of concussions that can potentially impact on your brain later in life? Yeah, OK.
 

Ole said:
A different argument than this thread discusses.
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From the Atlantic article

If you think little guys don’t hit hard enough to hurt each other’s heads, think again. Virginia Tech researcher Stefan Duma put accelerometers into the helmets of the Auburn Eagles, a youth team—ages 7 and 8—in a town near campus. He found the typical player sustained 107 head impacts per season, most in practice. (Audiences see games; the majority of hits occur during drills and scrimmages.) Acceleration for the median hit equated to 15 times the force of gravity. Duma’s tykes recorded 38 impacts of at least 40 “gees” and six impacts of 80 times the force of gravity, which is 95th percentile for NCAA football contact.

In a society increasingly education-based, having millions of boys smashing each other’s heads from a very young age on—wearing helmets that were designed for adults and weigh more than helmets designed for children would—just cannot be good.

From Deadspin:

"Youngsters are not miniature adults," Cantu said. For starters, he explained, their brains are not fully myelinated, meaning their nerve cells lack the complete coating that offers protection. That makes them more susceptible to concussions and means they recover more slowly from them than adults. Cantu said children have big heads relative to the rest of their bodies and weak necks, creating a "bobblehead-doll effect" that elevates the risk of concussion. They typically play in the oldest equipment, with the least educated coaches, and with little or no available medical care. They are allowed to hit each other in practice—up to 40 minutes per session in Pop Warner football, under new guidelines—to a greater extent than NFL players are in season. And finally, kids are unable to provide meaningful informed consent. "Rarely do they really understand the risk they're taking," Cantu said.
 

oleboy41 said:
If all you're running is 26 power and 41 dive what's even the point? Its just kids running into each other in the middle of the line. I've coached youth football and we ran really efficient practices and had a large playbook for youth football and didn't lose a game for 3 years. Even with that emphasis on efficiency we couldn't have taught more than a small handful of plays WELL while also making time to work on fundamentals which were probably taking 2/3 of our practice time.
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Yes, it is basically little kids running into each other and having fun. That's EXACTLY what it should be at that level.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those everyone gets a trophy yahoos. I firmly believe that kids leagues should keep score, record wins losses etc. (when I was in first grade, our t-ball standings were printed in the paper - really.) But I also think the focus should be on having fun while learning the game at that age.
 

justthefacts said:
From the Atlantic article

If you think little guys don’t hit hard enough to hurt each other’s heads, think again. Virginia Tech researcher Stefan Duma put accelerometers into the helmets of the Auburn Eagles, a youth team—ages 7 and 8—in a town near campus. He found the typical player sustained 107 head impacts per season, most in practice. (Audiences see games; the majority of hits occur during drills and scrimmages.) Acceleration for the median hit equated to 15 times the force of gravity. Duma’s tykes recorded 38 impacts of at least 40 “gees” and six impacts of 80 times the force of gravity, which is 95th percentile for NCAA football contact.

In a society increasingly education-based, having millions of boys smashing each other’s heads from a very young age on—wearing helmets that were designed for adults and weigh more than helmets designed for children would—just cannot be good.

From Deadspin:

"Youngsters are not miniature adults," Cantu said. For starters, he explained, their brains are not fully myelinated, meaning their nerve cells lack the complete coating that offers protection. That makes them more susceptible to concussions and means they recover more slowly from them than adults. Cantu said children have big heads relative to the rest of their bodies and weak necks, creating a "bobblehead-doll effect" that elevates the risk of concussion. They typically play in the oldest equipment, with the least educated coaches, and with little or no available medical care. They are allowed to hit each other in practice—up to 40 minutes per session in Pop Warner football, under new guidelines—to a greater extent than NFL players are in season. And finally, kids are unable to provide meaningful informed consent. "Rarely do they really understand the risk they're taking," Cantu said.
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Here's the issue I have with this. It calls out football without making note of the fact that kids, especially boys, do ALL KINDS OF STUPID STUFF at that age that results in getting their heads knocked around, many times worse than a couple months of organized football. In nine years of organized football, I can't think of one time I got hit in the head badly, and I played on the line. But I can think of all sorts of dumbass things we did as kids that certainly resulted in who knows what kind of damage...
 

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