Your BT Rankings Week 5

[cjbfbp]

And you really think some here aren't ranking tOSU high because they want the Gopher loss to look better?

Is this what your obsession is about?

Look, let me answer that question as clearly and as honestly as I can:

The motivations of other posters in forming their conclusions are not particularly interesting to me so I haven't given that much thought.

I only know that I can't rule out Ohio State as possibly being the #1 team in the conference just because of a loss to a very good team in week 2. If others share my view, I suspect that is mostly for the same reasons: their history, their personnel, and the fact that they likely are more capable than any other team in the conference of exploding on offense at any time. They are averaging 45 points per game and their 8.6 yards per play is 1.5 yards per play higher than the next highest conference team. Their defense certainly hasn't kept pace with their offense but they don't need Iowa's defense when they're capable of scoring 40 or 50 points against most teams.

The reasons I gave seem far more logical to me than the one you are proposing.

 

[Boomtime]

You are really taking your anti Fleck approach way too far on this. No one is trying to make the gopher loss look better, that’s kind of a loony take my friend. Ohio State will probably lose to Michigan? Pretty bold considering Michigan has beaten them twice in the past two decades.

In this thread, it appears we have several posters who only look at results of year's past and parlay that into ranking things in the "here and now". We all know tOSU has been the dominant program for a very long time.

Our rankings are subjective, obviously, but I don't see how anyone can put tOSU at the top right now?

BTW: I'm not anti Fleck. I just question those who proclaim him the best thing since Murray Warmath. Fleck has brought exposure to this program that we haven't seen years, but his winning percentage in Year 4/5 is pretty blah. 2019 was great, but it looks to be an outlier.

 

[SanDiegoGopherFan]

In this thread, it appears we have several posters who only look at results of year's past and parlay that into ranking things in the "here and now". We all know tOSU has been the dominant program for a very long time.

Our rankings are subjective, obviously, but I don't see how anyone can put tOSU at the top right now?

BTW: I'm not anti Fleck. I just question those who proclaim him the best thing since Murray Warmath. Fleck has brought exposure to this program that we haven't seen years, but his winning percentage in Year 4/5 is pretty blah. 2019 was great, but it looks to be an outlier.

This. I love Fleck, I love the exposure he’s brought to the program, I love what he was able to achieve in 2019, I love the recruiting battles that we’ve been winning with consistency that we haven’t in a long time before he came onboard.

what I don’t love is his hard head ness regarding his special teams coach, his OC and his insane loyalty to certain players to keep them in a game regardless how ineffective they might be during that specific game or not giving them breaks to let other players get experience.

if he can grow as a coach and change that aspect of his coaching, then he will take us to the next level. Until that happens, it wouldn’t surprise me if 2019 is his ceiling, which is awesome! But damn it I want more

 

[MNVCGUY]

In this thread, it appears we have several posters who only look at results of year's past and parlay that into ranking things in the "here and now". We all know tOSU has been the dominant program for a very long time.

Our rankings are subjective, obviously, but I don't see how anyone can put tOSU at the top right now?

BTW: I'm not anti Fleck. I just question those who proclaim him the best thing since Murray Warmath. Fleck has brought exposure to this program that we haven't seen years, but his winning percentage in Year 4/5 is pretty blah. 2019 was great, but it looks to be an outlier.

You know its funny, I was going to reply and say that nobody thinks Fleck is the best thing since Murray Warmath but then I considered......

Claeys, Kill, Horton, Brewster, Mason, Wacker, Gutekunst, Holtz, Salem, Stoll.....Warmath

So umm yeah, Fleck is the best coach here since Warmath and it really isn't that close.

His "outlier" year (in your opinion) was one of the best in Gopher Football history and easily the best in a long long long time.

It is ok to just admit you don't like the guy. You have been very clear on that even if you want to pretend that isn't the case.

 

[cjbfbp]

So umm yeah, Fleck is the best coach here since Warmath and it really isn't that close.

His "outlier" year (in your opinion) was one of the best in Gopher Football history and easily the best in a long long long time.

I'm perfectly happy with Fleck as coach overall and I agree that 2019 was special in a way that hasn't been experienced in a long time. I can't disagree with an opinion that he's the best coach in that time but I don't think he has as big of a lead over Mason and Kill/Claeys as you're thinking.

He has a much shorter time frame than Mason or Kill/Claeys to judge so that one terrific year has more weight in his overall record. Fleck is currently at a 58% winning percentage at Minnesota while Mason and Kill/Claeys were around 53%. If we have a mediocre year this year (say 7-6) and a losing season next year (say 5-7), Fleck is down to 55%. Also, 2019 was only one game better than Mason's best season.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I'm perfectly happy with Fleck as coach overall and I agree that 2019 was special in a way that hasn't been experienced in a long time. I can't disagree with an opinion that he's the best coach in that time but I don't think he has as big of a lead over Mason and Kill/Claeys as you're thinking.

He has a much shorter time frame than Mason or Kill/Claeys to judge so that one terrific year has more weight in his overall record. Fleck is currently at a 58% winning percentage at Minnesota while Mason and Kill/Claeys were around 53%. If we have a mediocre year this year (say 7-6) and a losing season next year (say 5-7), Fleck is down to 55%. Also, 2019 was only one game better than Mason's best season.

Much shorter time frame than Kill/Claeys? Kill was here 4.5 seasons, Claeys 1.5 as a head coach, together it was 6 seasons. Fleck is in his 5th season, unless we're throwing out last season.

Mason also never beat two top 10 teams in the same season, and never finished close to the top 10. His best finish was ranked 17/20, and he did that twice, once in his third season and once in his 7th season.

 

[PoockItInfor6]

Dammit...the discussion is about power rankings. We're not arguing who has the best offense. And if we were...I'd agree with you.

But there are at least three phases of winning football. PSU/Iowa/ Michigan are better than Ohio State right now.

I would not pick against OSU playing any of those 3 teams right now.

 

[Triple D]

1) Ohio State
2) Penn State
3) Iowa
4) Michigan
5) Michigan State
6) Wisconsin
7) Nebraska
8) Minnesota - Move to 6 if Potts is not out long term
9) Indiana
10) Maryland
11) Purdue
12) Rutgers
13) Illinois
14) Northwestern

 

[Boomtime]

You know its funny, I was going to reply and say that nobody thinks Fleck is the best thing since Murray Warmath but then I considered......

Claeys, Kill, Horton, Brewster, Mason, Wacker, Gutekunst, Holtz, Salem, Stoll.....Warmath

So umm yeah, Fleck is the best coach here since Warmath and it really isn't that close.

His "outlier" year (in your opinion) was one of the best in Gopher Football history and easily the best in a long long long time.

It is ok to just admit you don't like the guy. You have been very clear on that even if you want to pretend that isn't the case.

The 2019 season is the definition of "outlier" in this discussion. One great season and three "mehs".

I suspect many on this site don't like Fleck, but he's probably the best HC Gopher football fans can hope for.

With that research you did on the previous head coaches, it's kind of disheartening to realize how long the dryspell has been.

And watch the meltdown on this forum if we lose to Nebby.

Fleck has the same problem every HC has had since the Vikings arrived in town. Mpls/StP is a pro sports town. It's why the Gophs seldom get the elite in State high school talent. The football fanatics in this State gravitate to pro football. Recruits know this. Gopher head coaches will seldom have sustained success. 2019 was Fleck's big year. Good for him.

 

[MNVCGUY]

The 2019 season is the definition of "outlier" in this discussion. One great season and three "mehs".

I suspect many on this site don't like Fleck, but he's probably the best HC Gopher football fans can hope for.

With that research you did on the previous head coaches, it's kind of disheartening to realize how long the dryspell has been.

And watch the meltdown on this forum if we lose to Nebby.

Is 2019 really a true outlier though?

2017 - Transition year
2018 - Made a bowl game
2019 - Great Year
2020 - Covid
2021 - TBD

I would contend it is too early to know what to expect from Fleck longterm. And if we don't play like crap against Bowling Green people would have a very different take on the first 5 games from 2021 given that we would be sitting at 4-1 with the only loss being to Ohio State.

I would also disagree with the idea that "many" on this site don't like Fleck. There are a handful like you that can't stand him and will never like him. But for the rest of us we see someone that has promoted the program in a way that no other coach in recent memory has and has led the team to an 11-2 season within his first few years on the job.

No coach is perfect and Fleck has made and will continue to make mistakes. But I would bet the vast majority of the posters here are happy to have him as our coach and hope he sticks around for a long time. Your group that is actively hoping he fails is much much smaller.

 

[Boomtime]

Is 2019 really a true outlier though?

2017 - Transition year
2018 - Made a bowl game
2019 - Great Year
2020 - Covid
2021 - TBD

I would contend it is too early to know what to expect from Fleck longterm. And if we don't play like crap against Bowling Green people would have a very different take on the first 5 games from 2021 given that we would be sitting at 4-1 with the only loss being to Ohio State.

I would also disagree with the idea that "many" on this site don't like Fleck. There are a handful like you that can't stand him and will never like him. But for the rest of us we see someone that has promoted the program in a way that no other coach in recent memory has and has led the team to an 11-2 season within his first few years on the job.

No coach is perfect and Fleck has made and will continue to make mistakes. But I would bet the vast majority of the posters here are happy to have him as our coach and hope he sticks around for a long time. Your group that is actively hoping he fails is much much smaller.

Fleck's record, outside of 2019, is 18-19. Yeah, 2019 is the "outlier". But I see you've bought into the Year 0 thing.

I'm not openly hoping he fails. But I am tired of the Gophers being Iowa's and Wisconsin's b%#th.

 

[btowngopher]

Fleck's record, outside of 2019, is 18-19. Yeah, 2019 is the "outlier". But I see you've bought into the Year 0 thing.

I'm not openly hoping he fails. But I am tired of the Gophers being Iowa's and Wisconsin's b%#th.

2017 looks like an outlier too then right?

 

[BoatRacer]

I am still not convinced Iowa is No.3 good. If you look at the teams they played up to last week, they were very overrated. Indiana and ISU propelled them into this status. IU is total crapshoot rn.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Fleck's record, outside of 2019, is 18-19. Yeah, 2019 is the "outlier". But I see you've bought into the Year 0 thing.

I'm not openly hoping he fails. But I am tired of the Gophers being Iowa's and Wisconsin's b%#th.

You are trying way to hard to make it seem like it is not about Fleck for you when it is so clearly about Fleck for you. The Iowa and Wisconsin comment is just dumb.

And I didn't say anything about year 0, that was all you on that one. My only point is that year one for any coach is a transition year and shouldn't be viewed as an accurate reflection on what they may or may not be able to do as a coach. Please note, when I say that I am referring to EVERY coach, this has nothing to do with Fleck.

But hey, keep trying to pretend like you don't want Fleck to fail....just maybe try some tactic that isn't quite as obvious.

 

[Boomtime]

2017 looks like an outlier too then right?

Let's play your game. Because I have always believed that to judge a HC you remove his "worst" year AND his "best" year. Let's call them, oh, I don't know, outliers.

I'm not great at math, but adding 2018/2020/2021 gets me to 13-12. You really gonna use that to defend Fleck? If you're in the majority, PJ has some fantastic job security. Fleck is paid to win games and build young men. I hope he's better at building great, young men.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

Let's play your game. Because I have always believed that to judge a HC you remove his "worst" year AND his "best" year. Let's call them, oh, I don't know, outliers.

I'm not great at math, but adding 2018/2020/2021 gets me to 13-12. You really gonna use that to defend Fleck? If you're in the majority, PJ has some fantastic job security. Fleck is paid to win games and build young men. I hope he's better at building great, young men.

So after 2 years is a coach's record 0-0?

 

[Boomtime]

So after 2 years is a coach's record 0-0?

That's kinda what PJ tried to sell fans with his Year Zero stunt.

I've never said he's a bad coach. He's better than Scott Frost, imo.

And I think you could make the argument that he's almost in the top half of B1G HCs.

But a .570 winning percentage probably isn't what Coyle envisioned when he hired him.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Let's play your game. Because I have always believed that to judge a HC you remove his "worst" year AND his "best" year. Let's call them, oh, I don't know, outliers.

I'm not great at math, but adding 2018/2020/2021 gets me to 13-12. You really gonna use that to defend Fleck? If you're in the majority, PJ has some fantastic job security. Fleck is paid to win games and build young men. I hope he's better at building great, young men.

You've always believed that huh? Interesting, because that is a horrible way to evaluate a head coach, but it fits your current narrative so I can see why you have decided that is what you truly believe. I also have zero doubt that if those numbers looked better for Fleck you would have a totally different method that you have always used to judge coaches.

As to your foolproof method, do you take into account that 2020 had zero non-conf games? Does Covid factor into your evaluation at all? Or is it just about the wins and loses and since Fleck is just slightly over .500 in the only 3 years you think should count it means he is a failure? Makes perfect sense, nothing faulty about reasoning like this.....I guess the only thing to do now is fire Fleck and start looking for a replacement.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

That's kinda what PJ tried to sell fans with his Year Zero stunt.

I've never said he's a bad coach. He's better than Scott Frost, imo.

And I think you could make the argument that he's almost in the top half of B1G HCs.

But a .570 winning percentage probably isn't what Coyle envisioned when he hired him.

But your criteria legitimizes that claim that the first year doesn't count, since the first year will likely be the worst.

 

[Boomtime]

But your criteria legitimizes that claim that the first year doesn't count, since the first year will likely be the worst.

That's NOT what I said... I said you remove the worst and best year and that's the norm. Please don't twist my statements.

Fleck was the one who tried to downplay the first year results.

TIA.

 

[Boomtime]

You've always believed that huh? Interesting, because that is a horrible way to evaluate a head coach, but it fits your current narrative so I can see why you have decided that is what you truly believe. I also have zero doubt that if those numbers looked better for Fleck you would have a totally different method that you have always used to judge coaches.

As to your foolproof method, do you take into account that 2020 had zero non-conf games? Does Covid factor into your evaluation at all? Or is it just about the wins and loses and since Fleck is just slightly over .500 in the only 3 years you think should count it means he is a failure? Makes perfect sense, nothing faulty about reasoning like this.....I guess the only thing to do now is fire Fleck and start looking for a replacement.

Welp, since PJ lost to Bowling Green, maybe it's a good thing there were no OOC in 2020.

 

[Clark W. Griswold]

That's NOT what I said... I said you remove the worst and best year and that's the norm. Please don't twist my statements.

Fleck was the one who tried to downplay the first year results.

TIA.

I'm not trying to twist your statements, but many successful coach's worst year is year 1. Mason and Kill's first years were their worst. Brewster had one win in year 1 and 4. So I don't agree with your drop the worst and best theory, regardless of year. I think a coaches worst year in year 1 is much more acceptable than year 4. Alternatively, I think its telling if the best year is year 1 using the previous coach's players and the following win totals never match it (Jeff Brohm). I also don't think you can have "outliers" when you only have 4 seasons of results. Context matters. Just like it is fair to say that Fleck inherited a better situation than Mason or Kill.

 

[SamSquatch]

1) Penn State
2) Ohio State
3) Iowa
4) Michigan
5) Michigan State
6) Nebraska
7) Maryland
8) WI
9) Minnesota
10) Rutgers
11) Purdue
12) Illinois
13) Indiana
14) Northwestern

 

[Boomtime]

I'm not trying to twist your statements, but many successful coach's worst year is year 1. Mason and Kill's first years were their worst. Brewster had one win in year 1 and 4. So I don't agree with your drop the worst and best theory, regardless of year. I think a coaches worst year in year 1 is much more acceptable than year 4. Alternatively, I think its telling if the best year is year 1 using the previous coach's players and the following win totals never match it (Jeff Brohm). I also don't think you can have "outliers" when you only have 4 seasons of results. Context matters. Just like it is fair to say that Fleck inherited a better situation than Mason or Kill.

That's fair.

And I'm glad you pointed out how Fleck walked into a really good situation. The 2016 Gophers won nine, count em nine, games. The cupboard wasn't bare and yet in 2017 PJ won only five games.

The whole "Year Zero" was an attempt to downplay expectations. Conversely... Fleck raised expectations going into 2021 saying this was his best team since arriving. Bowling Green kinda disproved that claim.

This season is not lost, yet. And the problems at Indiana and Wisconsin make an 8-4 season a reasonable goal.

Fingers crossed that the staff gets it figured out.

 

[btowngopher]

That's fair.

And I'm glad you pointed out how Fleck walked into a really good situation. The 2016 Gophers won nine, count em nine, games. The cupboard wasn't bare and yet in 2017 PJ won only five games.

The whole "Year Zero" was an attempt to downplay expectations. Conversely... Fleck raised expectations going into 2021 saying this was his best team since arriving. Bowling Green kinda disproved that claim.

This season is not lost, yet. And the problems at Indiana and Wisconsin make an 8-4 season a reasonable goal.

Fingers crossed that the staff gets it figured out.

Come on man, the cupboard was pretty bare when Fleck took over. How was that offensive talent supposed to win much more than 5 games?

 

[Boomtime]

Come on man, the cupboard was pretty bare when Fleck took over. How was that offensive talent supposed to win much more than 5 games?

Before reading the story about the 2016 Gophers, I thought Nebraska was the only school that fired a HC for winning nine games.

I was wrong.

 

[btowngopher]

Before reading the story about the 2016 Gophers, I thought Nebraska was the only school that fired a HC for winning nine games.

I was wrong.

Great foresight by Coyle.

 

[FormerFatOL]

Before reading the story about the 2016 Gophers, I thought Nebraska was the only school that fired a HC for winning nine games.

I was wrong.

Are you REALLY rehashing the Claeys/Fleck issue? Jeebus.

 

[Word]

Are you REALLY rehashing the Claeys/Fleck issue? Jeebus.

He's an Iowa troll. Just put him on ignore.

 

[Boomtime]

He's an Iowa troll. Just put him on ignore.

No, everyone knows I'm a Glen Mason fan.