WOW: Michigan’s John Beilein has agreed to a five-year deal to coach Cleveland Cavs

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theczar said:
Who says...thug behavior is color blind...quit being a race baiting snow flake
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Indeed, Kevin Love is one of the biggest thugs...err...slugs I have ever seen on the court...?
 

Keyser Söze said:
Calling a black person a thug when they didn't do anything violent/criminal is a clear sign of racism. You don't see an issue with employing a racist coach in the NBA?

I'm speaking generally, so I'm not saying Beilein is racist or that he deserves to be fired. I have no idea what his intentions were. But at the very least, the optics are not good and I understand why the GM wanted to investigate the situation to be sure.
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Does anyone actually believe he is a racist? Racists don’t like being around other races, so being a HC in basketball is not the place where you are likely to find them.

It’s like having a nut allergy and deciding to be a peanut farmer.
 

Gopher Teeth said:
Does anyone actually believe he is a racist? Racists don’t like being around other races, so being a HC in basketball is not the place where you are likely to find them.

It’s like having a nut allergy and deciding to be a peanut farmer.
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Not interested in getting in a back and forth, but you're crazy if you don't think there are racist players/coaches/refs out there. Not saying Beilein is.
 


Keyser Söze said:
Not interested in getting in a back and forth, but you're crazy if you don't think there are racist players/coaches/refs out there. Not saying Beilein is.
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Truthfully, it's impossible for basically any of us to not have some sort of racist beliefs. It's impossible to truly be educated with every culture and race. The acting on those beliefs is where issues arise. I do find it hard to believe that Beilein meant this with intent of being racist. The word can carry racial undertones and it truly could've been a slip of the tongue or a Freudian slip as well, however it's not like Beilein is selectively choosing to give playing time to white players over others either so he would not be acting on it. He said on Wojo's pod this summer that he took the Cav's because he wanted a rebuild and to see if he could instill his culture in the NBA. Going to be bumps in the road.
 


I don't have an opinion on this particular instance one way or another, but somebody needs to give me a racism playbook on things I can or cannot say. Seems like the racism word gets thrown around a little too often for me.
 

“Racism!"
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
 

Keyser Söze said:
Not interested in getting in a back and forth, but you're crazy if you don't think there are racist players/coaches/refs out there. Not saying Beilein is.
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The issue that people are having is the tone of your conversation. You keep saying things like "I'm not saying anyone should be fired" OR "I'm not calling Bielen a racist" while at the same time saying "calling a black person a thug is racist".

This type of discussion is not helpful. It meanders around the discussion without any conviction. It allows you to play the moral high ground without actually having to get your hands dirty and giving an opinion.

Your stance is "some people are racist" and sometimes when people do things like Bielen did that means they're racist.

So, do you think it was racist for Bielen to say his team was playing like a bunch of thugs? His team that is compromised of 40% white men. If not, why bring it up? If so, should he be fired?
 
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manderson1984 said:
The acting on those beliefs is where issues arise.
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Correct. Prejudice is not the same as discrimination.

You can not like a black person, for whatever arbitrary reason you like, but then also provide the same level of service to a black customer as you do a white customer.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The issue that people are having is the tone of your conversation. You keep saying things like "I'm not saying anyone should be fired" OR "I'm not calling Bielen a racist" while at the same time saying "calling a black person a thug is racist".
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I think you're deliberately misquoting me here given how explicit I was. Calling a black person a thug isn't racist if they are one. A thug, by definition, is a violent criminal. Anyone can be a thug.

Calling a black person a thug if there isn't any logical basis (i.e., they are neither violent nor a criminal) sounds racist because you're labeling them with a racist stereotype for no reason. If they didn't do anything violent or illegal, then why would that word even come into your brain? Really think about that for a minute. It reminds me of when a bunch of people on social media were calling Richard Sherman a thug because he raised his voice. If you don't recognize the racial undertones there, I can't help you.

Bob_Loblaw said:
So, do you think it was racist for Bielen to say his team was playing like a bunch of thugs? His team that is compromised of 40% white men. If not, why bring it up? If so, should he be fired?
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I didn't bring up race. The article brought it up and someone seemed shocked that the GM got involved. That shock led me to explain why people can rightfully be sensitive to that word depending on the context. If misusing that word isn't a big deal at all, then why did he reportedly reach out to players individually about it and give an emotional apology?

If it was a slip of the tongue and his team is still willing to play for him, then no, he should not be fired.
 

manderson1984 said:
Truthfully, it's impossible for basically any of us to not have some sort of racist beliefs. It's impossible to truly be educated with every culture and race. The acting on those beliefs is where issues arise. I do find it hard to believe that Beilein meant this with intent of being racist. The word can carry racial undertones and it truly could've been a slip of the tongue or a Freudian slip as well, however it's not like Beilein is selectively choosing to give playing time to white players over others either so he would not be acting on it. He said on Wojo's pod this summer that he took the Cav's because he wanted a rebuild and to see if he could instill his culture in the NBA. Going to be bumps in the road.
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I've always really liked Beilein and think he seems like a good guy. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here. I just wanted to explain why people are sensitive to the misuse of that word. There are legitimate reasons for it.
 

Word choice is an interesting thing. I think a lot of people suffer from word choice such that the concept they had in their mind of what they wanted to express, and the word they selected to convey that, were not aligned. Sometimes badly misaligned.

I bet Beilein wanted to simply convey an idea like his players were playing "unrefined with poor technique" and thought the word Thug was appropriate for that.

It was a poor word choice that he immediately regretted, once he realized what the actual definition of that word is.


I myself did not realize that "Thug" had such a severe definition, until now looking it up.
 



Keyser Söze said:
I think you're deliberately misquoting me here given how explicit I was. Calling a black person a thug isn't racist if they are one. A thug, by definition, is a violent criminal. Anyone can be a thug.

Calling a black person a thug if there isn't any logical basis (i.e., they are neither violent nor a criminal) sounds racist because you're labeling them with a racist stereotype for no reason. If they didn't do anything violent or illegal, then why would that word even come into your brain? Really think about that for a minute. It reminds me of when a bunch of people on social media were calling Richard Sherman a thug because he raised his voice. If you don't recognize the racial undertones there, I can't help you.

I didn't bring up race. The article brought it up and someone seemed shocked that the GM got involved. That shock led me to explain why people can rightfully be sensitive to that word depending on the context. If misusing that word isn't a big deal at all, then why did he reportedly reach out to players individually about it and give an emotional apology?

If it was a slip of the tongue and his team is still willing to play for him, then no, he should not be fired.
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He didn't call a black person a thug, he called a team that is made up of 40% white people. A mixed group of young men (60% African American, 40% white/euro).

So yes, I think if an African American kid is walking down the street and someone says "look at that thug" for no reason, I think it is racist.

No, I do not think it would be racist to call Greyson Allen a thug (and he was called it constantly (google Greyson Allen and thug)). I don't think it would be racist to call a team who I thought was playing chippy or looking for fights to be "playing like thugs" regardless of their race. I wouldn't personally say about a group of African Americans because I realize how sensitive people can be, but I don't think it would be racist to do.

I never said that using words isn't a big deal. I am saying that the goal posts have been moved to a point where someone who is clearly not a racist feels compelled to make formal apologies for not doing anything wrong. Why did Bielen apologize? Because he is a probably a nice guy and was horrified that something he said could hurt someone and be considered racist. He is in the fire right now. We've all been in situations where we've said benign things (with no ill intention) and we accidentally offended someone we cared about. That doesn't make the statement any less benign, it makes us human. We don't want to hurt people.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
the goal posts have been moved to a point where someone who is clearly not a racist feels compelled to make formal apologies for not doing anything wrong.
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Just because you didn't think you were doing anything wrong, doesn't excuse you.

#OKBoomer
 

Back to Beilein, I have a hard time seeing him as coach to the beginning of April. Clearly the players despise him and he finds no joy in coaching prima donna's. Time is now to cut bait.
 


The entire TNT crew just defended beilein basically saying the entire Cavs locker room was weak for even allowing this to become an issue
 

GopherBlood666 said:
The entire TNT crew just defended beilein basically saying the entire Cavs locker room was weak for even allowing this to become an issue
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I'm shocked it was even a story, and Colin Sexton just came out and said that Beilein calls them slugs on the regular. Media was clearly reaching for a story regardless of whether he said "slug" or "thug"... who cares? Beilein has been coaching African American athletes for 40 years, he obviously isn't a racist.

He should've stayed coaching in college to avoid dealing with this BS. At least he'll have an extremely rich retirement fund after he gets fired at the end of this season.
 

Well I'm just glad I finally realized that thug has such a harsh, formal definition.

Up until now, I'd always thought of the word to be much closer to something like "bully". But it's far worse than that. I'll think next time before using that word.
 

MplsGopher said:
Well I'm just glad I finally realized that thug has such a harsh, formal definition.

Up until now, I'd always thought of the word to be much closer to something like "bully". But it's far worse than that. I'll think next time before using that word.
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Love it, right on. I've been lying in the weeds reading for a bit here and elsewhere. We are hypercharged as a society to racial issues. We can thank the media for that, that's the reality. Many issues have no racial undertones but because the media will pounce on anything and everything that could possibly be spun into it, it changes the story to fit the narrative. If you don't believe this then you also believe the world is flat. I can't for the life of me see a guy who coaches players of all colors, has molded young men in college with many, if not most being people of color having racial overtones in a quote about playing like thugs. Look at the definition...look at the intent, they were playing rough, undisciplined, cheap, dirty, whatever adjective you want to put in there. Why we have to turn it into a racial issue is beyond disappointing. Oh and by the way it's usually very left white people that create the narrative (FYI I hate both major political parties so I have no skin in the game).
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
He didn't call a black person a thug, he called a team that is made up of 40% white people. A mixed group of young men (60% African American, 40% white/euro).

So yes, I think if an African American kid is walking down the street and someone says "look at that thug" for no reason, I think it is racist.

No, I do not think it would be racist to call Greyson Allen a thug (and he was called it constantly (google Greyson Allen and thug)). I don't think it would be racist to call a team who I thought was playing chippy or looking for fights to be "playing like thugs" regardless of their race. I wouldn't personally say about a group of African Americans because I realize how sensitive people can be, but I don't think it would be racist to do.

I never said that using words isn't a big deal. I am saying that the goal posts have been moved to a point where someone who is clearly not a racist feels compelled to make formal apologies for not doing anything wrong. Why did Bielen apologize? Because he is a probably a nice guy and was horrified that something he said could hurt someone and be considered racist. He is in the fire right now. We've all been in situations where we've said benign things (with no ill intention) and we accidentally offended someone we cared about. That doesn't make the statement any less benign, it makes us human. We don't want to hurt people.
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Part of it has to do with awareness, compassion and understanding the views of others. There are many words and actions that have been considered benign by those that use them, but have never been considered benign by those that are subjected to them. I can't imagine anyone would consider being labeled a "Thug" as it being benign.

And yes, those that throw out the snowflake label are typically the ones that get offended. Just as those that trust no one are the ones that shouldn't be trusted, or those that claim they know everything are the ones that really know nothing, etc...
 

alchemy2u said:
Part of it has to do with awareness, compassion and understanding the views of others. There are many words and actions that have been considered benign by those that use them, but have never been considered benign by those that are subjected to them. I can't imagine anyone would consider being labeled a "Thug" as it being benign.

And yes, those that throw out the snowflake label are typically the ones that get offended. Just as those that trust no one are the ones that shouldn't be trusted, or those that claim they know everything are the ones that really know nothing, etc...
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As a minority i see nearly everyone as having a bias that is simply formed by our life journey. Racist is another thing all together. A racist actually does not even know why people have different tones to our skin, not educated in science. Thug to me has never had anything to do with color.
 

Parcival said:
I'm shocked it was even a story, and Colin Sexton just came out and said that Beilein calls them slugs on the regular. Media was clearly reaching for a story regardless of whether he said "slug" or "thug"... who cares? Beilein has been coaching African American athletes for 40 years, he obviously isn't a racist.

He should've stayed coaching in college to avoid dealing with this BS. At least he'll have an extremely rich retirement fund after he gets fired at the end of this season.
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Why? He wanted this challenge and wanted to see if his program it could work. Did anyone really think the Cavs would be fixed in a year? He said he wanted this job because he knew it'd be a multi year fix.
 

Just curious, does Beilein run some kind of scheme or strategy that would be new to the NBA?

Why would he, or any coach (college or otherwise) think that they can do what other coaches couldn't?
 

MplsGopher said:
Just curious, does Beilein run some kind of scheme or strategy that would be new to the NBA?

Why would he, or any coach (college or otherwise) think that they can do what other coaches couldn't?
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Beilein doesn't know if he can do it that's the point, he wanted a new challenge to see if he could make it work at the highest level
 

alchemy2u said:
Part of it has to do with awareness, compassion and understanding the views of others. There are many words and actions that have been considered benign by those that use them, but have never been considered benign by those that are subjected to them. I can't imagine anyone would consider being labeled a "Thug" as it being benign.

And yes, those that throw out the snowflake label are typically the ones that get offended. Just as those that trust no one are the ones that shouldn't be trusted, or those that claim they know everything are the ones that really know nothing, etc...
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Do you see how your first paragraph doesn't jive with your second paragraph? You are going on and on about the culture of being offended and then you're saying that the people who rally against that culture are the most easily offended. It's nonsense.

I don't really follow the talking heads, but do you think it's easier to offend people at a steel mill than it is a college campus? Do you think a construction site needs safe spaces? It's a horrendous take that people only make to sound clever.

There is a certain group of people who are offended by everything and another group of people call them snowflakes. I have issues with the group constantly calling other people snowflakes, but being easily offended is not one of them. Typically, they seem to kind of like to be hated (it's a by product of troll culture).

As far as your initial point, yeah, I agree, some people are jerks and they don't even realize it. Some people also go way out of their way to look for things to be offended. Those things are not mutually exclusive. For Bielen, whether or not he called them "thugs" or "slugs", neither is complimentary. The question isn't whether or not something is a nice thing to call another group of people, the question is if it is the type of behavior that crosses the line of what we accept in society.

Lets assume for the sake of discussion that he called them "thugs". You seem to be saying that you think it crosses a line. Again, you aren't willing to say it's racist (while you dance around implying it is racist).

So why do you think it crosses a line?
Does it matter that his team is 40% white?
Did it cross the line with Grayson Allen?

What if it was complimentary but had pinches of hip hop/traditionally African American lingo/stereotypes? What if Bielen had said, I want you play with some swag?

My entire point is that when you are part of a group of people who want to squint to find offensive behavior in benign statements by people we all know are not overtly racist, you start down the road of lunacy. It becomes an amorphous concept that is everywhere but you can't ever point to it. It's like this thread, people want to talk about how it's obviously theoretically offensive/racist, but they won't go as far to actually call it racist. It's everywhere and nowhere.
 

Why are you trying to pigeon hole everything to being racist or not? It can be bad, without being racist.

Bob, lot of words you typed out there when it can be pretty easily summed up as “I hate it that people nowadays try harder to recognize and acknowledge when people say bad things, when before they didn’t try very hard.”

I guess it’s your right to hate that. You do you.

But it’s better for society and will ultimately make our society better to call people on what they say more often.
 

manderson1984 said:
Why? He wanted this challenge and wanted to see if his program it could work. Did anyone really think the Cavs would be fixed in a year? He said he wanted this job because he knew it'd be a multi year fix.
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Wheels are evidently already falling off the bus. The Cavs are a terrible organization and always have been even when they had LeBron. I'm predicting Beilein will be fired before the next season, as NBA GMs want fans to think they are trying to fix the team so they scapegoat the coach and fire him. Look at the Knicks, they just fired David Fizdale after 20 games even though it wasn't his fault in the slightest.
 

Parcival said:
Wheels are evidently already falling off the bus. The Cavs are a terrible organization and always have been even when they had LeBron. I'm predicting Beilein will be fired before the next season, as NBA GMs want fans to think they are trying to fix the team so they scapegoat the coach and fire him. Look at the Knicks, they just fired David Fizdale after 20 games even though it wasn't his fault in the slightest.
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Cavs are certainly a mess, but that's rebuilding. I'd argue they've had two gms recently that were better or respected in the top half of the league. They are not nearly the mess in the front offices that he NYK are. Part of why Beilien insisted on and was given a 5 year deal was to give himself sometime and not allow them to fire him so quickly. Otherwise if they do they have to pay him and he can retire or go back to the NCAAs.
 

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