Would Adam Weber be more successful if...

[monk10]

Nope the "..." has been one of my forum signatures for a little while now. I'll get bored of it some day and move on to something else. On the flip side it has been said on this particular message board that how you write is a representation of how your information is treated, unlike maybe other boards you participate in. So take that as far as you want.

You made a blatant statement that is easily refuted, just like your other reference bankonit does. It hardly takes any football knowledge to refute your over-the-top-try-too-hard-pretty-obvious-I-use-xbox-to-understand-football statements. I hope this doesn't deter you from trying to get more informed during your time here.

 

[monk10]

Get after the OL for its slack run blocking if you must, but before taking yet another shot at this bunch for its pass protection go back and watch the games, all the while counting "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand four, one thousand five, one thousand - Geez he got sacked again."

Unfortunately the replay doesn't show the receivers, so you will get a biased viewpoint that the receivers were running against air. I think it has been argued many times that Weber should have given up, and thrown the ball away or ran. However, the one thing that nobody knows is whether fisch wanted him to stay in the pocket and move around to create time or whether weber just did it himself.

 

[maxwellsmart]

The Dunbar offense was based on timing patterns, you know the one he supposedly regressed from, you know the one he won awards in, you know the one people predicted big things based upon, ... wait I think I'm suppose to use "..." and not a run on sentence.

Put the personal agenda away and give us stats mastermind. Unforced turnovers for three years. That would be the place to start with Weber. Next would be underthrown balls that took away a scoring opportunity, forcing us to line up at scrimmage again and hope we could get to the end zone. Do we have numbers on how many times he's forced receivers to sacrifice their bodies in order to catch a ball thrown while not under pressure? How about the one that deals with the number of open receivers unseen or passed up in favor of double covered roommates?

 

[maxwellsmart]

Nope the "..." has been one of my forum signatures for a little while now. I'll get bored of it some day and move on to something else. On the flip side it has been said on this particular message board that how you write is a representation of how your information is treated, unlike maybe other boards you participate in. So take that as far as you want.

You made a blatant statement that is easily refuted, just like your other reference bankonit does. It hardly takes any football knowledge to refute your over-the-top-try-too-hard-pretty-obvious-I-use-xbox-to-understand-football statements. I hope this doesn't deter you from trying to get more informed during your time here.

Oh, clever. You're just as smart as you think you are. Your turn Fridge.

 

[Rosemountian]

Weber would be better if he threw more TD passes to gopher players than to opponent players in the last three games. Weber would be better if on a play where he had time, he didn't turn, stare down his receiver, and then through a lazy/slow pass all the way across the field to a jackrabbit defender on his way for an easy 6.

Seriously, that pick-6 against SDSU was perhaps the worst throw/decison I have ever seen from a QB on any level above middle school.

 

[monk10]

Put the personal agenda away and give us stats mastermind. Unforced turnovers for three years. That would be the place to start with Weber. Next would be underthrown balls that took away a scoring opportunity, forcing us to line up at scrimmage again and hope we could get to the end zone. Do we have numbers on how many times he's forced receivers to sacrifice their bodies in order to catch a ball thrown while not under pressure? How about the one that deals with the number of open receivers unseen or passed up in favor of double covered roommates?

Please provide me base line numbers of what an average D1 starting QB does. That way I will know first to determine if Weber is below average or above average. Then I can compare it to the numbers he produces in practice over the other guys he beats out. That way I can draw a logical conclusion based on whether Weber should or shouldn't be the starting QB of the Golden Gophers over the other guys actually on the roster versus the mythical QB that we don't have.

The one thing that still stands true is that Weber has Big Ten awards in his history, whether he has more in the future will be how successful he runs the new offense, if he is elected the starter.

But can we at least start with ignoring the flat out blatant comments, like he can't throw a timing route, or that a middle school qb can play better then him.

 

[maxwellsmart]

Weber would be better if he threw more TD passes to gopher players than to opponent players in the last three games. Weber would be better if on a play where he had time, he didn't turn, stare down his receiver, and then through a lazy/slow pass all the way across the field to a jackrabbit defender on his way for an easy 6.

Seriously, that pick-6 against SDSU was perhaps the worst throw/decison I have ever seen from a QB on any level above middle school.

Correct and correct! And should have been a definitive source of instruction to all observers.

 

[Jeffrick]

The Dunbar offense was based on timing patterns, you know the one he supposedly regressed from, you know the one he won awards in, you know the one people predicted big things based upon, ... wait I think I'm suppose to use "..." and not a run on sentence.

Monk, Weber seems like a good kid and hard worker, but he really, really struggled to throw timing patterns in 2009. I watched every game. A lot of his passes on those routes were off target-either behind, over, or too short for a receiver to catch. That is not his strength. His strength is throwing deep and throwing on roll-outs, which is what he did in the Michigan State game. He hit some home run balls (the throw to Brandon Green for the 1st TD of the night was a thing of beauty), and the offense rolled.

As far as him winning awards in Dunbar's offense, he was 2nd team All-Big Ten in 2008 because of what he did in his first seven games against cupcake teams (when they were 6-1. Obviously Ohio State, the one loss, was NOT a cupcake) AND because it was one of the worst years for QB's in Big Ten history. He won that award by default.

 

[maxwellsmart]

Please provide me base line numbers of what an average D1 starting QB does. That way I will know first to determine if Weber is below average or above average. Then I can compare it to the numbers he produces in practice over the other guys he beats out. That way I can draw a logical conclusion based on whether Weber should or shouldn't be the starting QB of the Golden Gophers over the other guys actually on the roster versus the mythical QB that we don't have.

The one thing that still stands true is that Weber has Big Ten awards in his history, whether he has more in the future will be how successful he runs the new offense, if he is elected the starter.

But can we at least start with ignoring the flat out blatant comments, like he can't throw a timing route, or that a middle school qb can play better then him.

Yes, those things I will stipulate, even though I said neither. He can throw a timing route and I have never seen a middle school QB play better. That done, how about we also agree that award or no award, what we've seen on the field in the last three years could lead some people (even those who play XBox) to the conclusion that this tough, well-intentioned young man is not an effective D1 QB. We really don't need stats for that. All I needed was the replay of #8 throwing a lazy, arcing pick six across the field. Told me what I needed to know. At any rate, I understand defending him, but I also understand how logical it is to take the opposite POV and that differing with your QB opinion does not render one intellectually challenged.

 

[monk10]

You won't see my arguing against some really bad throws Weber made, specially that pick 6. That was ugly. You won't see me argue against anyone who was blasting his footwork either, specially when pressure was on him. It made him throw some really weak, and mostly short throws. It even made him throw some really crappy balls when there was no pressure on him. I hope Horton starts his work with his feet.

Is it your conclusion that all the other throws that weber completed were above average to outstanding catches by the receivers? It does seem there is a lot of focus on the 50% of balls he didn't complete (+/- great catches and +/- absolute drops by receivers).

 

[fridge2012]

Nope the "..." has been one of my forum signatures for a little while now. I'll get bored of it some day and move on to something else. On the flip side it has been said on this particular message board that how you write is a representation of how your information is treated, unlike maybe other boards you participate in. So take that as far as you want.

You made a blatant statement that is easily refuted, just like your other reference bankonit does. It hardly takes any football knowledge to refute your over-the-top-try-too-hard-pretty-obvious-I-use-xbox-to-understand-football statements. I hope this doesn't deter you from trying to get more informed during your time here.

then refute it. you haven't said anything except that i make over the top, obvious statements based on my x-box knowledge of the game. it isn't over the top to say that weber doesn't usually make good throws, or that his receivers often have to make circus catches. these things are obvious, but his inability to throw well consistently is also a BIG problem, so i comment on it. i don't own an x-box, and don't play video games often. so instead of assuming i don't know anything about football, really watch what the receivers usually have to do to catch the ball, how the o-line blocks, and refute my "easily refuted" statements. after all, it will take "hardly any football knowledge"

ps: i haven't been on here long enough to know your post "signatures."

 

[Jeffrick]

But can we at least start with ignoring the flat out blatant comments, like he can't throw a timing route, or that a middle school qb can play better then him.

He's definitely better than a middle school QB, but he can't throw a timing pattern. At least he couldn't last year. He is not a pro-style QB and is better suited for Dunbar's spread systems, but we'll have to live with what we can get out of him and hope Horton can make some improvements with him.

 

[maxwellsmart]

You won't see my arguing against some really bad throws Weber made, specially that pick 6. That was ugly. You won't see me argue against anyone who was blasting his footwork either, specially when pressure was on him. It made him throw some really weak, and mostly short throws. It even made him throw some really crappy balls when there was no pressure on him. I hope Horton starts his work with his feet.

Is it your conclusion that all the other throws that weber completed were above average to outstanding catches by the receivers? It does seem there is a lot of focus on the 50% of balls he didn't complete (+/- great catches and +/- absolute drops by receivers).

No, I didn't draw that conclusion and still don't. What I know is that there were multiple cases this past year in which he could not or did not put the ball where it needed to be for an easy six. Now, did the receivers overrun the pattern? Who knows. Perhaps we're back to Weber waiting too long to let it go. Who knows. The only thing I know is that he seems to have a live arm, but yet the receiver who has put a defender behind him on a post or fly must wait or come back to make the catch. At least too often. I don't like saying every time or never, because such statements are either never correct or they're incorrect every time.

Listen, I would love it if he were a truly outstanding QB. I have nothing against this young man and if he's the best we have then I hope the coaching staff finds a way to maximize his talents.

 

[bankonit]

Based on your analysis I'm pretty surprised you can recognize what is considered a great effort by a receiver.

most of his passes are underthrown, overthrown, thrown behind the receiver, etc.. The receiver has to stop and react to the ball constantly. He can not hit a receiver in stride where they catch the ball and don't have to stop running to do it.

 

[monk10]

Monk, Weber seems like a good kid and hard worker, but he really, really struggled to throw timing patterns in 2009. I watched every game. A lot of his passes on those routes were off target-either behind, over, or too short for a receiver to catch. That is not his strength. His strength is throwing deep and throwing on roll-outs, which is what he did in the Michigan State game. He hit some home run balls (the throw to Brandon Green for the 1st TD of the night was a thing of beauty), and the offense rolled.

As far as him winning awards in Dunbar's offense, he was 2nd team All-Big Ten in 2008 because of what he did in his first seven games against cupcake teams (when they were 6-1. Obviously Ohio State, the one loss, was NOT a cupcake) AND because it was one of the worst years for QB's in Big Ten history. He won that award by default.

I understand this kind of defensive projection. My argument is not that Weber is a first round draft pick nor is it that Weber was the greatest QB in D1 history. However my argument is that he isn't worse then a middle school quarterback who couldn't throw a timing route. I disagree with people who state absolute myths, and then posters retread those myths over and over again while trying to lobby for the benching for an unproven starter that struggled to throw the ball, read defenses, and hold onto the ball when tackled. Nobody is absolutely correct that we would have been worse (or better) with another QB. We can not line up the games side by side and play each QB and then say AH HA I told you I was correct.

You can make your statement that you don't think he deserved the award, but you can't state that he didn't win it. I believe he earned it. I believed he carried us into a bowl game despite not having any vertical offense, not having a running game, and having unproven receivers to throw to. I also disagree that he really really struggled throwing timing patterns. I think he threw a lot of balls on time to the correct area. IMO his best throws come running the slant pattern either off of play action, shotgun or 3 step drop. He seemed to have perfected the middle strength throw to the middle of the field that usually was over a LB and under a safety. In addition I think he had a great ability to throw the deep speed out, which I think anyone not named Decker struggled mightily running, which hurt our play action. Despite all of that I was amazed at how much he struggled throwing a simple stop route, and even the out routes, which, imo, could be directly attributed to his footwork, throwing motion. If you watch film you can just watch his feet and pretty much guess if it was going to be a short hop throw or not.

I don't repeat myself over and over ad nausium, so I don't expect people to remember my views on Weber. I've always believed he gives us the best chance to win, because I believe given our offense (and the controls the qb had) he would put us in the best play to be successful. I'm not saying our younger QB's won't be able to do that in time, but I'd rather put my poker chips in with a QB who has shown he can do that, then one that hasn't. I'm also not saying that he throws every ball perfectly, hasn't made some really, really crappy decisions, and doesn't get sacked for some mind-boggling reason. Despite sending dp into a tisy, the only thing I can rely on is to trust our QB staff that during practice, Weber outperforms his counterparts. The staff could be wrong, but you and I both don't have any information to go by, so let's consider that a wash.

 

[ruralgopher]

I'm proud of Adam Weber. He was a pretty highly regarded 3* local kid who stayed here when that was not the pattern of high end local kids. He has endured a lot of football hardships, losing seasons, h/c turnover, coordinator turnover, injuries to his best running back and wr, a leaky o-line, three completely different offenses, etc. Yet he always handles himself extremely well. He always owns up to mistakes, he is a well spoken kid who is good in interviews, in the tailgating lot after games-win or lose- he chats it up with fans who talk to him and signs things for them. From what I've gathered he is pretty much what we should all hope for in a college player. Hopefully next season goes better on the field for him.

 

[MNWolfman]

how much rope do you give him next year?

 

[ruralgopher]

how much rope do you give him next year?

Depends how good the other options are, unfortunately without being in practice none of us know the answer to that question.

 

[Kuato Lives!]

Depends how good the other options are, unfortunately without being in practice none of us know the answer to that question.

If things go sour early you reel in the rope and go with another option. The guy is a senior and is not the future of the program.

 

[Ole]

Get after the OL for its slack run blocking if you must, but before taking yet another shot at this bunch for its pass protection go back and watch the games, all the while counting "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand four, one thousand five, one thousand - Geez he got sacked again."

While it is possible the scenario you point out happened a few times a game, it was not common.
Watch key games like wisconsin, when Bunders whiffed Scofield on a stunt ending the game, or Clay Nurse getting 3 sacks on the right side against Illinois. Watch the beating the Cal defensive ends put on him, and the penetration Iowa got in the final game. There were simply very few games we won up front.

He made many inexcusable throws this year, I don't expect him to win the QB battle this spring, but to pretend like he got great protection, especially on play action(of which our offense depends on) is not true. I just think he is getting way too much flak for this past season. Literally against ILL a guy came up to visit the folks next to me went on and on about how Weber is f^#%ing horrible and how he needs to be cut and expelled and then proceeded to leave at halftime, nice. The kid isn't great, but he doesn't deserve most of the vitriol he gets from some in this fanbase.
The O line is going to decide whether we take the next step next year and beyond. I'm hopeful that a slimmer and stronger Wills, a healthy and experienced Carufel, and a group of young and eager RSFreshmen, and RS Juniors get it together and blow people away going forward. As a group they can make the difference.

 

[ruralgopher]

If things go sour early you reel in the rope and go with another option. The guy is a senior and is not the future of the program.

I disagree. You play whoever gives you the best chance to win. But I do see your point.

 

[fridge2012]

While it is possible the scenario you point out happened a few times a game, it was not common.
Watch key games like wisconsin, when Bunders whiffed Scofield on a stunt ending the game, or Clay Nurse getting 3 sacks on the right side against Illinois. Watch the beating the Cal defensive ends put on him, and the penetration Iowa got in the final game. There were simply very few games we won up front.

He made many inexcusable throws this year, I don't expect him to win the QB battle this spring, but to pretend like he got great protection, especially on play action(of which our offense depends on) is not true. I just think he is getting way too much flak for this past season. Literally against ILL a guy came up to visit the folks next to me went on and on about how Weber is f^#%ing horrible and how he needs to be cut and expelled and then proceeded to leave at halftime, nice. The kid isn't great, but he doesn't deserve most of the vitriol he gets from some in this fanbase.
The O line is going to decide whether we take the next step next year and beyond. I'm hopeful that a slimmer and stronger Wills, a healthy and experienced Carufel, and a group of young and eager RSFreshmen, and RS Juniors get it together and blow people away going forward. As a group they can make the difference.

maybe he said that because he threw an unforced pick six, as well as missing about 4 open deep receivers in the first half while he had time (on play action). just a thought. cut and expelled are unreasonable obviously, but i can understand his frustration. obviously we're not going to resolve this, everyone has their own opinions. but watching a lot of the games twice, and comparing weber's time in the pocket to other QB's around the nation, he had as much or more time than they did in most instances, even the iowa game. btw, a majority of his mistakes were made while he had time. (ILL pick six, SDSU pick six, Iowa fumble on their 30, Penn St. int on our own 20, Purdue picks, etc...) that's not even mentioning poor throws that didn't end up in a turnover. how do you blame the line?

 

[MBAGuy]

how much rope do you give him next year?

That's a great question and one that will be debated all spring and summer.

IMO, last year's problems with all of the QBs are rooted in the complexity of the offense. Simply put, I think it required too much from them with regard to reading the defense and understanding how the WRs would react to a given coverage. Being required to run a dozen calculations in one's head while at the line of scrimmage and in a 3/5/7-step drop is not conducive to optimal performance. Consequently, neither Weber nor Gray could perform to their potential.

I hope Horton's offense will be much simpler and organized around the team's (read: QB's) strengths. With an abridged playbook and less complicated reads by the QB and WRs, things should flow much smoother and more intuitively for the players, yielding more consistent results. See Wisconsin. It's not like they've established success by running a Mike Marx-esque playbook; it's about a dozen plays built around the team strengths and are well understood by all the players. We should emulate that to the greatest possible extent.

Assuming this is the direction Horton goes and Weber is the opening day starter, I give him until the second game to demonstrate that his 2009 difficulties were an aberration. If he's underthrowing/overthrowing WRs like he was this year, then you have to pull him and try Gray or Alipate and adjust the offense accordingly.

 

[Rosemountian]

The great fiction in people's analysis was thinking that Adam Weber was ever a good QB. He was 2nd team all big ten in perhaps the worst ever season for Big Ten QB's.

Look at the QB's of the Big Ten the year he was 2nd team All Big Ten
Penn State, Clark
Northwestern, Had to play bacher and Kafka due to injury
Iowa, Played Stanzi and Christiensen
Wisconsin, Sherer was terrible
Purdue, worst team in Tiller's tenure.....Painter was ok, but team being bad ruined All conference opportunites
Michigan State, Hoyer...didn't have to throw...and when he did he completed 51% of his passes.
Indiana, Kellen Lewis.....he and Royce White hang out on weekends
Michigan, Steven Threet....enough said
Ohio State, Pryor takes over midway through the year
Illinois, Juice Williams probably should have gotten it over Weber, and would have if they had been bowl eligible

After going 60/86 69.8% with 6 TDs and 0 interceptions in the first three wins, against Northern Illinois, Florida Atlantic, and Montana State, he finished the next ten games by going 195/324 60.2% with 9 TDs and 8 INTs while going 4-6 in the next ten games. And don't let the high completion percentage fool you. 2008 was one of the seasons where the team would run 7-10 WR screens per game. The first three games gave him good enough statistics at the finish of the year to be the best of the terrible Big Ten QBs in 2008.

His Freshman year he threw 19 INTs, His junior year he threw more INT's than TD's. His career record as a starter is 14-24. He has had a passer rating over 100 in just 7 of his 38 starts. Just 3 of those came in games against BCS opponents. He has thrown an interception in 29/38 starts. He has thrown multiple interceptions in 10 games (that is over 25% of his starts).

He is inaccurate.
He has always been fairly erratic on the intermediate throws. He usually throws low and away to the outs and hitches. He throws behind the slants 60% of the time. He has always been late and short on the deep throws, causing countless easy TD catches to become great catches in traffic by Decker. I will give him that he has been accurate at throws under 6 yards most of the time. He has been like this since his freshman year, so don't give me anything about messing with his throwing motion.

In summation, he is not now, nor has he ever been, nor will he ever be.....a good quarterback.

 

[denguegopher]

Adam Weber would have been more successful if he hadn't had 4 OCs in his 5 years at Minnesota, period.

Maybe. An optimist might say that its an advantage because he got to learn from 4 coaches.

 

[Rosemountian]

Maybe. An optimist might say that its an advantage because he got to learn from 4 coaches.

Doesn't matter how many coaches you have if you can't read coverage, can't deliver a ball on time, and can't deliver a ball accurately. The timing is the only thing that would be affected negatively by the coaching change.

No doubt in my mind he is a smart kid. But he definitely does not have the ability to read coverage at a fast pace. He is an inaccurate passer.

 

[maxwellsmart]

While it is possible the scenario you point out happened a few times a game, it was not common.
Watch key games like wisconsin, when Bunders whiffed Scofield on a stunt ending the game, or Clay Nurse getting 3 sacks on the right side against Illinois. Watch the beating the Cal defensive ends put on him, and the penetration Iowa got in the final game. There were simply very few games we won up front.

He made many inexcusable throws this year, I don't expect him to win the QB battle this spring, but to pretend like he got great protection, especially on play action(of which our offense depends on) is not true. I just think he is getting way too much flak for this past season. Literally against ILL a guy came up to visit the folks next to me went on and on about how Weber is f^#%ing horrible and how he needs to be cut and expelled and then proceeded to leave at halftime, nice. The kid isn't great, but he doesn't deserve most of the vitriol he gets from some in this fanbase.
The O line is going to decide whether we take the next step next year and beyond. I'm hopeful that a slimmer and stronger Wills, a healthy and experienced Carufel, and a group of young and eager RSFreshmen, and RS Juniors get it together and blow people away going forward. As a group they can make the difference.

Well, Ole, it's a lot more than possible. It happened, and a lot more than you are obviously prepared to admit. But I did the watching and I did the counting. Here, let me show you: One thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand, okay this is about where things could start heating up. Now watch some other QB's and you'll see they have about the same amount of time a good share of the time. Other teams' QB's do feel pressure you know, even when they have a good OL. See Favre in the NFC title game? That's a BAD effort by the OL. I didn't see anything close to that happen to Weber last season.

Again, I've got nothing against the kid, but we cannot continue to be outplayed at QB. It's a death sentence.

 

[ruralgopher]

Maxwell is right, we can not continue to be outplayed at the qb position. My question is why anybody thinks we have a better option than weber? I'm as excited about Gray as anyone, but have we seen anything that good out of him? I haven't seen Alipate play much, maybe the new kid from WI? Everybody has been clamoring to start Gray since the Syracuse game, but what has he shown?? As far as I can tell he excells in the zone-read but struggles with ball security. I want whoever gives us the best chance to win on the field and from what we have seen I still think that is Weber.

 

[dpodoll68]

running a Mike Marx-esque playbook

Who? Any relation to Karl?

(This is the point where I would post a photo of Mike Martz looking like Karl Marx. But I don't have any Photoshop skills, so I couldn't.)

 

[maxwellsmart]

Maxwell is right, we can not continue to be outplayed at the qb position. My question is why anybody thinks we have a better option than weber? I'm as excited about Gray as anyone, but have we seen anything that good out of him? I haven't seen Alipate play much, maybe the new kid from WI? Everybody has been clamoring to start Gray since the Syracuse game, but what has he shown?? As far as I can tell he excells in the zone-read but struggles with ball security. I want whoever gives us the best chance to win on the field and from what we have seen I still think that is Weber.

It's just opinion, but I doubt we'll see anything from Gray as long as he's shuttling in and out of the game like a play runner. One snap and then the bench? For a QB? While every FB guru in the country preaches finding a rhythm? Talk about Weber fighting a battle against coaching.

Does Weber give us the best chance of winning? I know winning QB's don't miss many opportunities to put six on the board and it's one of the things young Adam does best. Seriously, if the game is tomorrow he gives us the best chance. A new QB might mean we struggle even more than normal a couple of games before finding out whether or not it's a viable situation. Can't tell just from practice, some guys are not practice players. Can't tell from an occasional snap, some guys NEED to feel the game's rhythm in order to be effective.

Here's my prediction for the coming year. Weber's the starter, that's a given. But he doesn't get long to cement his position if for no other reason than seniors are typically given less rope than underclassmen. Produce or make way for the future. The OL does its job better than last season, even on run blocking. Gray's FB acumen starts to balance out his raw athleticism. Weber doesn't look a ton better than he has. The coaches get a good look at a couple of underthrown passes that cost us easy points and realize they don't want to experiment with QB's at the start of the next season. We finally get a fair look at Gray or Alipate or whomever. That said, the best thing for Gopher FB is for me to be completely mistaken and we all sit back and watch Weber tear up the B10 next season, or at least prove himself to be a viable senior QB. That would make me extremely happy, but I've lost faith that it's going to happen.