Winning at a .700 Clip

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I really don’t get what the point of this argument even is at this point.

Are people trying to prove Fleck failed early by not winning enough games in 2017?

Are we worried the old staff isn’t going to get credit for whatever the team accomplishes now?

Do some people think fans don’t understand that there were key players recruited by the old staff on the 2019 team?

What is the end goal here?

Why are some so determined to protect the legacy of a coach who left the program?

Time to move on. Not sure what is gained in this desperate attempt to make Fleck look bad when he is taking the program to new heights and turning them from an also ran into a contender.
 

Boomtime said:
The 2019, successful season likely doesn't happen if Fleck didn't have Claeys' recruits as the base.

I know that some think the cupboard was bare when PJF arrived.

It wasn't!
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Those were all guys Fleck and staff developed into great players in two years.
 


MNVCGUY said:
I really don’t get what the point of this argument even is at this point.

Are people trying to prove Fleck failed early by not winning enough games in 2017?
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Here is the WEIRD part.

I don't remember anyone upset that we were supposed to do well in 2017.


This all comes up later...
 

swingman said:
Celestin,

Honestly, the posters that keep harping on running down players and coaches that gave blood, sweat, and tears for the Maroon and Gold can't be actual fans of the program.

Demry Croft and Seth Green both could have been very capable quarterbacks in a run first, limited passing attempts, limited passing route offense, which is what PJ has shown is what he likes to run.

Having Rodney Smith (NFL), Shannon Brooks, (2,290 career Yards) Kobe McCrary (little bit of NFL) and Jonathan Femi Cole (CFL) wasn't bad.

PJ likes big, veteran olines that he can pair with big blocking TEs.

He started with a bunch of returning oline starters, upper classmen including Greene (NFL), Calhoun (lower level pro ball), Weyler, Wright and Connelly...Dovich and Oseland offered some nice veteran depth. Talented RS frosh ready to go included Schlueter and Olson. Blaise Andries was a true frosh recruit committed when he arrived.

Wozniak (NFL) and Lingen added some very capable, experienced upper classmen at TE. Beebe, Witham. Kieft nice depth.

Tyler Johnson (NFL) wasn't a bad guy to have at WR. Rashad Still reminds me a lot of Dylan Wright. Eric Carter reminds me of MBS.

Santoso (NFL), Herbers (AllBig HM), Carpenter (AllBig, School record holder), Jordahl not a bad special teams crew to take over.

Admittedly, he wasn't left much on defense with Celestin (NFL), Huff (All Big HM), Huff, Cashman (NFL), Kamal (NFL), Barber (AllBig 3rd, HM), Richardson (NFL-CFL), Stelter (some lower level pro) , DeLattiboudere, Winfield (NFL), Kiondre (NFL), Shenault, McGhee, Ayinde, Durr (AllBig HM x 2), Renner (NFL), Moore, Merrick Jackson.

Program in 2017 was two years removed from multiple sellouts.

Program was just about to move into great new practice, study, dining facilities, which previous staff had pushed, campaigned hard for.
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Wow, just when I thought you were getting better you had to go back to your old ways and the hard on you still have for Claeys/Kill.

The offense Fleck inherited from that staff was god awful. I can’t believe you could actually write that part with a straight face.
 


Boomtime said:
Actually one year. There was that Year Zero.
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Dude, do you get that you are the only person still tossing around that year zero crap? Find a new bit, it isn’t as effective as you think it is
 

Boomtime said:
OK, let's clarify... Winfield and Green never left campus. That better?

I bet only a handful of programs would have taken players potentially facing criminal charges.

I guess we can go back and forth all day debating how much talent remained from a 9 win team.
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You already have. Or is it two days now.
 

There is no point to this argument because to the majority of posters PJ can do no wrong.
The part that's overlooked is that Jerry Kill before PJ used the same formula ie Make the first year as woeful as possible, emphasize how bare the cupboard is because you want it to be so ugly that you can triumph from the ashes and be recognized as an amazing coach, an amazing program builder. Bielema is doing the same at Illinois. It's the formula.
I mean, PJ developed all the Kill/Claeys guys who were the leaders of the 2019 team....right, come on man, they barely even played before PJ got here. Right? The 9-4 was a mirage.
Claeys recruited a running QB JC to play that PJ ran off...so the idea there wasn't a plan is faulty.
Green would have been a solid running QB for Claeys. PJ and Tracy had very different ideas of offense. How many Claeys offensive linemen are we still playing?
PJ has many good qualities.
So did Kill/Claeys.
Neither are crap, neither are without flaws.
 




60's Guy said:
There is no point to this argument because to the majority of posters PJ can do no wrong.
The part that's overlooked is that Jerry Kill before PJ used the same formula ie Make the first year as woeful as possible, emphasize how bare the cupboard is because you want it to be so ugly that you can triumph from the ashes and be recognized as an amazing coach, an amazing program builder. Bielema is doing the same at Illinois. It's the formula.
I mean, PJ developed all the Kill/Claeys guys who were the leaders of the 2019 team....right, come on man, they barely even played before PJ got here. Right? The 9-4 was a mirage.
Claeys recruited a running QB JC to play that PJ ran off...so the idea there wasn't a plan is faulty.
Green would have been a solid running QB for Claeys. PJ and Tracy had very different ideas of offense. How many Claeys offensive linemen are we still playing?
PJ has many good qualities.
So did Kill/Claeys.
Neither are crap, neither are without flaws.
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Your first line is such a lazy argument that couldn't be farther from the truth. Yes, there are many of us that like having Fleck as our coach but there is nobody that thinks he can do no wrong. We lost to friggin Bowling Green this year, that alone would eliminate any aura of perfection which of course didn't exist in the first place.

To your bit about coaches lowering expectations, you are 100% correct that most coaches do it but you are very wrong about why they do it. Coaches lower expectations because coaching transitions are hard and it takes time to get things setup the way you want them. While that is going on you don't want fans thinking your team is going to be playing at a really high level. Has nothing to do with wanting to look amazing by looking like crap in the first year. Brewster was an exception, he came through the door talking big....how did that one turn out again?

I don't get why some like you are so hung up on Claeys. He was never a long term option, he was just a one year stop gap while they figured out what to do after Kill stepped down. He deserves credit for landing a good crop of players in 2016, Fleck and his staff deserve credit for developing those players into the players they became. Plenty of credit to go around for everyone.

That running JC QB Claeys was going to bring in.....what happened with him....oh yeah....he ended up playing a different position somewhere else. And you are kidding yourself if you think Seth Green was going to be a quality Big Ten Level QB.

Tracy Claeys was a heck of a defensive coordinator but he was a mess as a head coach. Had the U kept him around it would have been a disaster.

But again, this whole thing is stupid. It is sad that some of you are so caught up in not liking Fleck that you can't enjoy what is going on with the program.
 

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