Why We Lost

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lakesgopher said:
we are a weak half court team! we don't screen well, we don't back cut at all, if blake isn't dropping 3's early he just stands around and watches, devoe takes a ton of heat and I think its due to people who don't know what they're watching, sampson took too many deep jumpers, nolen didn't play well, rodney is just a non factor, tubby needs to start nolen, hoff, devoe, mbakwe, and sampson/iverson. we need al to drive and dish. devoe and blake are the only deep threats we have, we need them on the floor at the same time. and we need to feed the block-im sick of sampson trying to get the ball 15 ft away from the bucket!

my rant is over we are 11-2 and things could be worse, but since we are all disappointed minnesota sports fans we all go with the "dooms day" attitude! we are still good! Go Gophers
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I nearly broke my beer glass on my head when Ralph tried to do his jumpers. I agree 100% with your post. Again, I don't blame Devoe for the loss. What I have been saying is that he needs to calm down and take direction from the bench. I know that we played for 40 minutes but sometimes one mistake or good play changes the momentum. To me, that was the play that could have made a difference. We play as team. We win as team. We loose as a team.

Go Gophers
 

Overall we have more talent and athletes than Wisconsin. But they have people with roles. And their two best players can score one on one. Leuer can score on the box and outside, Taylor can shoot and drive. We have no players like that. When you double or help on those two they pass it to the open man for an easy three. Pretty simple.

Sampson came on with a few baskets at the end of the game and Colt was bad. I wonder if we should have went small to defend the pick and rolls with Trevor at the 5, Rodney at the 4, and the three guards? Either way it's hard to win at Kohl and we had our chances.
 

Shooting can cover over shortcomings. I'm not sure where shooting fits in the talent or athleticism spectrum, but the fact that nearly every UW frontcourt player can shoot out to 3 and few of the Gopher bigs seemed comfortable outside the paint really had an effect on the game.
 

USAFChief said:
Not hate? Something very close then.

Nolen was pretty bad last night, but people here want to blame Joseph. THAT's what I don't get.
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Hate was what this board had for Westy. I hated Westbrooks attitude, but loved his take over, game changing ability. I think Devoe has a touch of that, but he's not half as clutch as Westbrook was.
 

under629

underground629 said:
Why exactly did Joseph kill you tonight? I ask because I usually tend to agree with most of the stuff you say. He had a few what are you doing shots but those were balanced out by great plays. What do you mean Ralph didn't step up at the end? He's the only one who did anything at the end offensively.
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Joseph is killing me: Devoe is killing me because I really like Devoe and want him on the floor. I think our best lineup is Blake, Al, Devoe, and two bigs. How Devoe is killing me is by taking quick threes with no rebounders around or dribbling 20 feet from the basket as the clock winds down and tossing up a three. As you call them, "what are you doing shots?" :D

I think he is better off driving and shooting or driving and passing in those spots as evidenced by the great plays you refer to.

Ralph did not step up: I was referring to the two missed free throws with the game on the line. Yes, Ralph had a pretty good second half but crunch time is crunch time and we needed him to go 4 for 4 from the line, not 2 for 4 at the end.

That being said Ralph and Devoe were two solid reasons why we had a chance at the end.
 


The difference was Taylor playing the game of his life and Nankivil and the other jank cashing 5/6 3's.

Also, Sampson's horrendous perimeter defense and low basketball IQ plays killed us in the end. He's the smallest, weakest 6'11'' guy in the history of the sport.

You gotta hand it to Taylor for hitting his FTs, controlling the game, making shots. He was the difference.

I've never seen a player more overrated than Jon Leuer. He has no NBA potential. Yes, he's tall and can hit outside shots, but his inside game, athleticism and work driving to the basket are laughable NBA wise.

He'll have a nice career in Turkey.

I thought we should have gone to the full court press, try to force the tempo a little bit.
 

I don't understanding blaming one guy for a loss, and I don't understand how anyone could blame Joseph? We had one player shoot 0-6 and another miss bunnies wildly throughout the game, but somehow it's the guy who gave us; 6-13 shooting 4 rebounds 7 assists 14 points. Great logic people. It's a team game and Joseph could have played better, but he played a lot better than almost everyone else on the team.
 

march madness said:
Overall we have more talent and athletes than Wisconsin. But they have people with roles. And their two best players can score one on one. Leuer can score on the box and outside, Taylor can shoot and drive. We have no players like that. When you double or help on those two they pass it to the open man for an easy three. Pretty simple.
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I think Wisconsin has loooong been undersold on athleticism. However, you are correct when discussing these two teams head to head. Minnesota has more athletic players. Wisconsin's players play much more intelligent basketball with roles, and UW has two stars in Taylor and Leuer who kick it into overdrive when needed. Minnesota doesn't have that. Hoff has to rely on other to create a little for him. Sampson is a nice complimentary player. Trevor is a really nice complimentary player. I agree with others here that Joseph tries to do too much....but that is probably a circumstance of the situation of not having a go-to guy. One great creator, and Minnesota is a phenominal team. You guys are close. Westbrook (creator) and Damien Johnson (leader, determined player) haven't been replaced yet.
 

Dirk Diggler said:
The difference was Taylor playing the game of his life and Nankivil and the other jank cashing 5/6 3's.

I've never seen a player more overrated than Jon Leuer. He has no NBA potential. Yes, he's tall and can hit outside shots, but his inside game, athleticism and work driving to the basket are laughable NBA wise.

He'll have a nice career in Turkey.
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That wasn't Taylor's "game of his life". There's a reason Dan Dakich kept calling him the best PG in the Big Ten. It didn't arrive yesterday. That was another day at the office for Taylor. Nankivil has long been a threat from 3 point range (ask Purdue). Jarmusz is new to having his three point touch, but that happens when teams decide to double Leuer and Taylor and let him shoot wide open 3's. We've been waiting 4 years for Tim's stroke to come alive. It has this season.

Your comments on Leuer are crap. The guy competed in an NBA camp all summer with guys like Kevin Durant. You can google the articles....players and coaches alike think very highly of Jon Leuer. And as if a career in Europe somehow detracts from his All-American resume in college.
 



It's easy to say that Nankivil and Jarmusz shot better than they normally do and say that it was some fluke performance, but the Badgers on the whole shot slightly worse than their season average from 3. As good as Taylor was in some facets of the game, he was a 41% 3pt shooter coming into this game and he went 2 of 9 including a couple that rattled out.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
Trevor is a really nice complimentary player.
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:eek::eek::eek:

Are you kidding me? Have you watched Trevor play this year??? Dude is a beast. Just because he can't shoot a three doesn't classify him as complimentary. He is a guy who can score on the post, and would start on any Big Ten team except maybe OSU, and even on that team they'd take minutes away from Lauderdale to give to TM.
 

justthefacts said:
It's easy to say that Nankivil and Jarmusz shot better than they normally do and say that it was some fluke performance, but the Badgers on the whole shot slightly worse than their season average from 3. As good as Taylor was in some facets of the game, he was a 41% 3pt shooter coming into this game and he went 2 of 9 including a couple that rattled out.
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So by your logic Minnesota is a strictly 25% 3PT-shooting team that did no worse than they normally do by shooting 3-12??? You can't have it both ways.

Both Joseph and Taylor were not on their game from beyond the arc. The Badgers had two guys step up and hit a couple threes more than they usually do percentage-wise. We didn't. In a one-possession game in the last minute, that is all the difference in the world.
 

josh087 said:
:eek::eek::eek:

Are you kidding me? Have you watched Trevor play this year??? Dude is a beast. Just because he can't shoot a three doesn't classify him as complimentary. He is a guy who can score on the post, and would start on any Big Ten team except maybe OSU, and even on that team they'd take minutes away from Lauderdale to give to TM.
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I didn't mean it as an insult. He needs people to create for him a little bit. In the Big Ten, there are interior defenders. He can be great, but I didn't see him take the game over in the clutch like Minnesota needed. Two players on the court last night could do that. And they both were wearing white.
 



justthefacts said:
It's easy to say that Nankivil and Jarmusz shot better than they normally do and say that it was some fluke performance, but the Badgers on the whole shot slightly worse than their season average from 3. As good as Taylor was in some facets of the game, he was a 41% 3pt shooter coming into this game and he went 2 of 9 including a couple that rattled out.
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OT, but I loved when his first 3 rattled in (after missing 4 prior) and the announcer commented on his great "touch" (from 3 point range?) and when Gopher players made shots off the rim in the second half (Same rim Taylor shot at), the comment was "Boy, that's a soft rim for MN"

I found it slightly entertaining anyways.

Taylor did impress me, but the announcer had a little crush on Taylor. He played much better than I expected and is a much better PG than I originally thought, BUT I wouldn't call him the best in the Big Ten. I would take a 100% Kalin Lucas (especially) or even Demetri McCamey or Taylor Battle (and I am not a big TB fan at all) over him 9,999 times out of 10,000. I have a feeling this was just typical announcer "heat of the moment" talk, like they love to do for every player and team in the world.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
I didn't mean it as an insult. He needs people to create for him a little bit. In the Big Ten, there are interior defenders. He can be great, but I didn't see him take the game over in the clutch like Minnesota needed. Two players on the court last night could do that. And they both were wearing white.
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I agree about Trevor. He isn't KG where you can give him the ball and have him take over the game, he is more of a last year Dwight Howard (physical, strong, shot blocker, etc. but no real post game). Trevor and Damian were tweeting about this, that Trevor needs to develop post moves to score. That is probably his biggest weakness right now.

However, I will disagree about the only two clutch players. Leuer and Taylor were clearly very clutch, and the only ones who were in THIS game. I would argue that Devoe has the capabilities to do so as well though. He shot very poorly last night, which happens, but he was getting to the hoop, finishing, making solid passes, hitting free throws, etc. If he hits those jumpers, today is a different conversation. Unfortunatley he didn't, (he was sick?, just a bad shooting night?) whatever the reason, Wisconsin made the plays they had to when it counted and MN didn't.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
I didn't mean it as an insult. He needs people to create for him a little bit. In the Big Ten, there are interior defenders. He can be great, but I didn't see him take the game over in the clutch like Minnesota needed. Two players on the court last night could do that. And they both were wearing white.
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So your definition of Leuer "taking over" is zero FGs in the final 13 minutes of the game on 0-4 shooting, three rebounds, and four mop-up FTs? What a clutch performance! He certainly isn't "complimentary!"

95% of the time guards win close games late. You have a guard who can take over. We don't.
 

josh087 said:
So your definition of Leuer "taking over" is no FGs in the final 13 minutes of the game on 0-4 shooting, three rebounds, and four mop-up FTs? What a clutch performance! He certainly isn't "complimentary!"

95% of the time guards win close games late. You have a guard who can take over. We don't.
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I didn't say Leuer "did" close it out. I said he could. Last night was Taylor's night for the closeout. We've all seen Leuer do it plenty of times in his career. Minnesota built their entire gameplan around stopping him. And so he gave way to Taylor.
 

scher215 said:
I have a feeling this was just typical announcer "heat of the moment" talk, like they love to do for every player and team in the world.
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Dakich has called several UW games this season and with his BTN work last season. He's very familiar with Taylor. His like for him didn't begin last night. He's called him the best PG before "along with Lucas and McCamey". Perhaps last night broke the tie for him. It's a debate on who's better, but Jordan Taylor's arrival didn't come last night.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
I didn't say Leuer "did" close it out. I said he could. Last night was Taylor's night for the closeout. We've all seen Leuer do it plenty of times in his career. Minnesota built their entire gameplan around stopping him. And so he gave way to Taylor.
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Leuer is a senior with plenty of starts and opportunities to do so. Trevor has only played a dozen games in maroon and gold.

Even still, he has already been a huge deciding factor late in both the UNC and WVU wins. He doesn't have the post skill of Leuer offensively, but that doesn't mean he isn't a clutch performer when it matters and can't close out a game. They have different skill sets.
 

scher215 said:
Taylor did impress me, but the announcer had a little crush on Taylor. He played much better than I expected and is a much better PG than I originally thought, BUT I wouldn't call him the best in the Big Ten. I would take a 100% Kalin Lucas (especially) or even Demetri McCamey or Taylor Battle (and I am not a big TB fan at all) over him 9,999 times out of 10,000. I have a feeling this was just typical announcer "heat of the moment" talk, like they love to do for every player and team in the world.
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I'll take 16 & 5 with a 4-1 Assist to Turnover ratio from a junior point guard over all three of those guys this season. He'll have a lot of "career nights" this season and even more before his career is done.

Lucas is not 100%. And he probably won't be the rest of his college career.
McCamey is the least consistent player in the Big Ten. Not what I want from my senior point guard.
Talor Battle is not worth addressing.

Dakich has been saying that Jordan Taylor is the best point guard in the Big Ten since the first time he covered Wisconsin in Orlando.
 

josh087 said:
Leuer is a senior with plenty of starts and opportunities to do so. Trevor has only played a dozen games in maroon and gold.

Even still, he has already been a huge deciding factor late in both the UNC and WVU wins. He doesn't have the post skill of Leuer offensively, but that doesn't mean he isn't a clutch performer when it matters and can't close out a game. They have different skill sets.
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So Leuer has had more opportunities....does that mean we call Trevor a closeout player before he's earned it?

Again, you jumped on my comment about him like it was an insult. He's a very good player who can certainly develop into a great player.

Let me put it this way....Keaton Nankivil has had "beast" type nights too. He lit up Purdue twice. But that doesn't mean he's the guy you run through at the end of the game.

When Minnesota is running sets to Trevor at end of game situations, and he delivers, we'll know he's arrived at another level. I could certainly see him developing that way. And Minnesota could certainly use it.
 

and four mop-up FTs?
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Hey, and speaking of mops-

Did anyone happen to see on the game last night when the camera panned over to the kid in the
orange Bruesewitz type wig?

Ya suppose that kid has been laid lately?
 

BKBucky said:
I'll take 16 & 5 with a 4-1 Assist to Turnover ratio from a junior point guard over all three of those guys this season. He'll have a lot of "career nights" this season and even more before his career is done.

Lucas is not 100%. And he probably won't be the rest of his college career.
McCamey is the least consistent player in the Big Ten. Not what I want from my senior point guard.
Talor Battle is not worth addressing.

Dakich has been saying that Jordan Taylor is the best point guard in the Big Ten since the first time he covered Wisconsin in Orlando.
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McCamey's numbers this season:

FG% 49.7
3PT% 49.2
Assists 7.1
Points 15.7

15.9 and 4.9 with a 4.0 A/T Ratio compared to 15.7 and 7.1 with a 2.7 A/T ratio. That's not a clear cut victory for Taylor (if it is even a victory at all)

And just for fun ...

13.8 With 4.7 Assists and 2.9 A/T ratio ... Blake Hoffarber
 

scher215 said:
McCamey's numbers this season:

FG% 49.7
3PT% 49.2
Assists 7.1
Points 15.7

15.9 and 4.9 with a 4.0 A/T Ratio compared to 15.7 and 7.1 with a 2.7 A/T ratio. That's not a clear cut victory for Taylor (if it is even a victory at all)

And just for fun ...

13.8 With 4.7 Assists and 2.9 A/T ratio ... Blake Hoffarber
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Taylor wins. McCamey whines. Statistics do a poor job of measuring PG play. McCamey has a better skillset than Taylor but doesn't know how to use it in order to play winning basketball.
 

ParaBadger said:
Taylor wins. McCamey whines. Statistics do a poor job of measuring PG play. McCamey has a better skillset than Taylor but doesn't know how to use it in order to play winning basketball.
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So you are basically saying then, if I have your argument right, that Nolan Smith is the best PG in the nation (stats are a poor measure) because his team won? In fact, the national championship, so he is the best PG and the Butler PG is second best in the nation? Right? I've never seen Jordan Taylor in nat'l championship game ... I have seen kalin Lucas though.

I agree a player needs to win to be "the best", not just stats alone (I take Kobe > LeBron every time) but Taylor has not won at some profound level. Illinois is ranked higher than Wisconsin (right now at least) Taylor hasn't made an elite 8. Kalin Lucas has played in the nat'l title game.

all that said, even if a team wins, you can't say (as i did above sarcastically) the PG on the winning teams are the best PG's. Rondo wins with Boston, but Deron, CP3, Rose, Westbrook, etc. are all better PG's (IMO).

Don't get me wrong, I was REALLY impressed with Taylor, I like the way he plays, I like him as a player. He plays hard, determined, smart basketball. But that doesn't make you the best PG in the Big Ten. He is DEFINITLEY in the discussion, no doubt about that, but I doubt MSU, Illinois, PSU, etc. would trade their PG for Taylor.
 


Leuer is not an NBA quality player. There are taller, bigger players out there that shoot miles better than him. There are bigger players who move and dribble better than him. He's a great college player but he won't do doing anything in the NBA. Maybe he can sit on the end of the bench and play 2 minutes a night, but he will not be able to defend for a second in the NBA. He will not be able to create any sort of shot for himself in the NBA. He's a worse version of Adam Morrison...

Honestly, what makes you think Leuer could do ANYTHING in the NBA? He is beyond slow. Did you see him on those 2 fast breaks last night. One time he couldn't finish against a guy he had 7 inches on and another time he just lost the ball awkwardly out of bounds.

He can shoot well and he's tall, but he doesn't have the bounce or the drive in his game to ever start a game in the NBA.

That said, Trevor has no chance in the NBA either. He has no post moves and he also doesn't have a jump shot. He's also slightly undersized for a 4. No chance at this point.
 

justthefacts said:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=talor-battle&p1=jordan-taylor&p2=kalin-lucas&p3=demetri-mccamey

ORtgs:
Taylor: 130.8
Lucas: 105.9
McCamey: 121.5
Battle: 113.7

Taylor also has the highest off reb pct and 2nd highest def reb pct (Battle) among the group. He also has the highest +/- average of the group.

You can certainly debate who is the best PG, but you can't really fault Dakich for saying Taylor is the best.
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He is entitled to his opinion, as is everyone else, I am not trying to fault him, I just don't agree. And yes, I was a little shocked when he said it, but I just have a bad view of all announcers, they have a bad habbit about talking up players in the moment, I wasn't aware of his prior liking of Taylor. (Ron Jaworski: "Chad Henne is one of the best young QB's in the game" - followed by two straight INT's in the game and an eventual benching in the season)

I think Taylor is in the discussion, as the numbers show. But as I said above, would MSU, Illinois, PSU, trade their PG for him? Nope. Would Wis. trade Taylor for any of the others? Probably not. Which is why I don't think you can really "declare" a clear cut best PG. I don't think it is Taylor, but certainly others do and are reasonable to make that argument and his numbers put him in the discussion along with the other top PG's. Many would even throw Al Nolen into the mix.

Where as last year, the SEC for example, do you think any team turns down a hypothetical trade of John Wall for your starting PG? No chance.
 

Leuer has some range if he keeps working on his 3 he might be a Matt Bonner/Brian Cook in the NBA. I heard earlier this year someone compare him to Tom Gugliotta that was an insult to Googs.

Googs had way better handles, better passer and more athletic.
 

Roland Brooks said:
Leuer has some range if he keeps working on his 3 he might be a Matt Bonner/Brian Cook in the NBA. I heard earlier this year someone compare him to Tom Gugliotta that was an insult to Googs.

Googs had way better handles, better passer and more athletic.
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All things Leuer could improve on during the season and in the NBA. I am not saying he is a lock, but any D1 player who works hard enough and finds the right team can make an impact in the NBA.
 

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