Why Stoudermire at WR?

[Schnoodler]

I wonder how many hs qb's we'll have on the field at one time. Plus considering deckers passing ability...

 

[STPGopher]

I don't think anyone can answer for sure but I think that he appears to have more potential as a WR. HE was a QB in high school and only moved to WR mid season last year so I'm sure he's pretty raw but he has natural instincts and ability with the ball in his hands as he showed on returns last year and the few times he touched the ball on offense. As I said before I think he has the rare ability to be dynamic with the ball in his hands which is why the staff wants him on offense. Remember that he is still young, too so he has 2 more years to make an impact. I have to assume that they feel comfortable with the young corners as well.

Adding on to your post here. Add the motivational factor. I he indeed wants to be on the offensive side of the ball, guess where he is most likely to excell. My guess is that the O coordinator will look for ways to get him the ball in space and ease him into more traditional sets. He already has a knack of making things happen in open space, but may have not mastered all of the subtleties of the WR position yet. Not to mention that he is not as big as Decker or Dajon.

Probably the most difficult thing for him to learn will be how to block as a WR in college. Often overlooked but a huge part of an effective ground attack.

 

[grunkiejr]

Who do you envision him surpassing?

He's firmly behind (and will not pass): Decker, Kuznia, Carpenter, Green

He would have to pass: McKnight, Brandon, Allen, Pittman

It's certainly plausible. But that's a lot of "what ifs" to throw away his defense.

You have no idea what you're talking about if you think he is behind all of those players. Just on your list of who he would have to pass...I'm pretty sure that he has taken more DI snaps at WR all of the players you have listed. He went through spring practice as a top 3 WR with Green and McKnight (Decker missed spring ball and Kuznia hurt his hamstring). Pittman and Brandon were clearly behind Stoudermire on the depth chart and he plays a different WR position than McKnight so that isn't even a comparison. Unless Carpenter picks up the offense very quickly you will see Stoudermire taking more snaps at WR than Carpenter in week 1.

 

[walleyedude]

All I want to add is that I cannot wait to watch Troy get that ball in his hands and see what happens.

 

[gopherdudepart2]

I would like triple option with Stoudamire,Decker,Bennet

three playmakers out of the backfield imagine the possibilities and the matchup problems you could create. Add in the two tight ends Tow-Arnett and Hagemen and the defense has all kinds of problems defending the pass and the run out of that set. This is not a set you would want to use a lot of but you could really spring some "crap" on the defense if you went no huddle and gave Webber the triple option to use all of these playmakers all at once. You can fake that 2nd pitch to Decker, you can counter with TS the other way when everyone follows Bennet, you can pound them with the belly with Bennet. Toss sweeps with Hagemen and Tow-Arnett sealing the point. Heck you can fake the option have Webber step back and hit Hagemen or Tow-Arnett on any kind of seam route or quick out that you can imagine or catch Decker wide open. There is so much you could do just for a series that you probably would have the defense overmatched or on there heels for the entire series. I'm not saying this is something that should happen a lot but it would be cool to see them try a little surprise triple option, catch the defense totally off guard.

 

[grunkiejr]

three playmakers out of the backfield imagine the possibilities and the matchup problems you could create. Add in the two tight ends Tow-Arnett and Hagemen and the defense has all kinds of problems defending the pass and the run out of that set. This is not a set you would want to use a lot of but you could really spring some "crap" on the defense if you went no huddle and gave Webber the triple option to use all of these playmakers all at once. You can fake that 2nd pitch to Decker, you can counter with TS the other way when everyone follows Bennet, you can pound them with the belly with Bennet. Toss sweeps with Hagemen and Tow-Arnett sealing the point. Heck you can fake the option have Webber step back and hit Hagemen or Tow-Arnett on any kind of seam route or quick out that you can imagine or catch Decker wide open. There is so much you could do just for a series that you probably would have the defense overmatched or on there heels for the entire series. I'm not saying this is something that should happen a lot but it would be cool to see them try a little surprise triple option, catch the defense totally off guard.

If we're going to run that I would run it with Gray in the game. Weber is a fine runner but lets not forget that in the 2008 class Gray was considered the 2nd best scrambler behind Terrelle Pryor.

The problem with the triple option for Minnesota is that we don't run it normally and there are a lot of intracacies that we wouldn't pick up on as well as a team that runs it as their base offense. I like the idea of a change of pace but I fear our execution.

 

[dpodoll68]

You have no idea what you're talking about if you think he is behind all of those players. Just on your list of who he would have to pass...I'm pretty sure that he has taken more DI snaps at WR all of the players you have listed. He went through spring practice as a top 3 WR with Green and McKnight (Decker missed spring ball and Kuznia hurt his hamstring). Pittman and Brandon were clearly behind Stoudermire on the depth chart and he plays a different WR position than McKnight so that isn't even a comparison. Unless Carpenter picks up the offense very quickly you will see Stoudermire taking more snaps at WR than Carpenter in week 1.

Please see what I've already written above for an explanation:

I should've been clearer - I wasn't typing them in terms of a straight depth chart, but rather clustering them into "tiers", if you will. My point was to show that we have a lot of quality depth on offense, and not so much on defense. I don't really think Allen would play before him.

He would have to consistently outperform all of the "2nd tier" players just to stay in the top 5 WR. He could have been a top 4 CB this season with ease had he stayed there, that's all I'm saying.

I didn't attend the spring game, so someone please enlighten me - has he shown the hands and the ability to consistently catching the ball running routes and going downfield like a "traditional" WR?

Due to the dearth of answers to this question, I'm going to assume that he hasn't yet proven he can run routes and catch passes downfield like a traditional receiver. If that is the case, and the staff is going to use him exclusively for screens, end-arounds, etc., there was no reason to move him from D. Like I said earlier, this is all contingent upon something none of us have seen in person - maybe the coaches have, and are convinced he can be a traditional WR. If so, I will gladly eat crow and admit the move to WR was the correct one. If not, sorry - I am still thoroughly unconvinced.

 

[oleboy41]

Please see what I've already written above for an explanation:



He would have to consistently outperform all of the "2nd tier" players just to stay in the top 5 WR. He could have been a top 4 CB this season with ease had he stayed there, that's all I'm saying.



Due to the dearth of answers to this question, I'm going to assume that he hasn't yet proven he can run routes and catch passes downfield like a traditional receiver. If that is the case, and the staff is going to use him exclusively for screens, end-arounds, etc., there was no reason to move him from D. Like I said earlier, this is all contingent upon something none of us have seen in person - maybe the coaches have, and are convinced he can be a traditional WR. If so, I will gladly eat crow and admit the move to WR was the correct one. If not, sorry - I am still thoroughly unconvinced.

I understand your point but I don't understand it at the same time. Here are some important facts to remember
- TS never played one snap on D last year. None of us have any clue as to how good he was at CB. He may have been terrible or he may have been great. Being a good athlete doesn't mean you'll be a good CB
- 1 thing we absolutely DO know is that TS has unique (at least for this team) quickness and burst, especially with the ball in his hands
- His learning curve at CB was probably higher than it was at WR. He was a QB in HS and it is likely that he was more comfortable on offense than D. Not saying he couldn't have made that transition, obviously but just saying it was probably an easier move to WR than to CB.
- You keep saying how they'll only use him for certain types of plays with 0 evidence of that. Also you keep ignoring the fact that the kid is only a true soph. So what if they only use him for those types of plays this year if he's still learning the plays. He'll have 2 years to grow into an all around WR
- I understand your point about why move him from D to only use him for bubble screens but as I addressed above he may have a bigger role in future years. You also make that statement with the assumption that he can even be a good corner at some point which we have 0 evidence of. Remember that Marcus Sherels was a completely insignificant WR and then was our best corner the next year. Some guys are best suited for certain positions

 

[grunkiejr]

Due to the dearth of answers to this question, I'm going to assume that he hasn't yet proven he can run routes and catch passes downfield like a traditional receiver. If that is the case, and the staff is going to use him exclusively for screens, end-arounds, etc., there was no reason to move him from D. Like I said earlier, this is all contingent upon something none of us have seen in person - maybe the coaches have, and are convinced he can be a traditional WR. If so, I will gladly eat crow and admit the move to WR was the correct one. If not, sorry - I am still thoroughly unconvinced.

Considering you didn't watch the spring game you are at a huge disadvantage for evaluating him as a WR and it shows. He ran all the routes that a normal WR would run. He didn't catch a ball down the field but he did catch three passes for 31 yards. IIRC one was a slant route one was a hook route and the third was a WR screen. Aside from his receptions he also ran the ball twice for 63 yards including an end around for a 54 yard TD.

Your stubborness is extremely annoying considering your admitted ignorance that stems from not having seen him play WR. If you recall the freshman WR's that were at WR from the beginning of camp didn't play much until Purdue in the eighth game of the season (9th wk) because Dunbar's offense was hard for new WR's to grasp. Because Stoudermire switched positions mid-season and didn't participate in camp at WR he was far behind the other WR's and his grasp of the offense was limited. To account for that they had packages for him that consisted primarily of getting him the ball in space (bubble screens, end around options) or using him as a decoy (the beautiful option pass against Wiscy where Weber hit a wide open Brandon Green because Wiscy's safety bit on the fake). This year he was here for the installation of the offense in spring practice which gives him a much better chance to see a lot of playing time as a normal WR.

If I were to predict the way that we'll see him this year he is in the two-deep at WR so he will cycle in normally to give the #1 guy a breather. Additionally, because of his skill set they will try to get him the ball in space a few times a game with the hope that he can break a big play. It probably won't be much different than they way that Florida used Percy Harvin--as both a normal wide receiver and for lack of a better term an X-factor.

 

[dpodoll68]

Considering you didn't watch the spring game you are at a huge disadvantage for evaluating him as a WR and it shows. He ran all the routes that a normal WR would run. He didn't catch a ball down the field but he did catch three passes for 31 yards. IIRC one was a slant route one was a hook route and the third was a WR screen. Aside from his receptions he also ran the ball twice for 63 yards including an end around for a 54 yard TD.

Your stubborness is extremely annoying considering your admitted ignorance that stems from not having seen him play WR. If you recall the freshman WR's that were at WR from the beginning of camp didn't play much until Purdue in the eighth game of the season (9th wk) because Dunbar's offense was hard for new WR's to grasp. Because Stoudermire switched positions mid-season and didn't participate in camp at WR he was far behind the other WR's and his grasp of the offense was limited. To account for that they had packages for him that consisted primarily of getting him the ball in space (bubble screens, end around options) or using him as a decoy (the beautiful option pass against Wiscy where Weber hit a wide open Brandon Green because Wiscy's safety bit on the fake). This year he was here for the installation of the offense in spring practice which gives him a much better chance to see a lot of playing time as a normal WR.

If I were to predict the way that we'll see him this year he is in the two-deep at WR so he will cycle in normally to give the #1 guy a breather. Additionally, because of his skill set they will try to get him the ball in space a few times a game with the hope that he can break a big play. It probably won't be much different than they way that Florida used Percy Harvin--as both a normal wide receiver and for lack of a better term an X-factor.

Your stubbornness in not answering the question when I posed it 22 hours ago (especially considering you've posted in this very thread during that time) is extremely annoying.

 

[grunkiejr]

Your stubbornness in not answering the question when I posed it 22 hours ago (especially considering you've posted in this very thread during that time) is extremely annoying.

I'm sorry for not giving you a breakdown of the spring game and what he did earlier in the thread. I assumed that if you were going to question the move to WR that you would have seen the spring game so you had a basis for questioning it.

For a more complete analysis:

I think most fans are incorrectly assuming pro-style/power running game means FB but the reality is that in the spring game we used a 3rd WR more frequently than we used a FB. That means you have 6 WR's in the two deep. Judging from past history, reports out of spring practice & spring game, as well as the two days of fall camp the two deep seems likely to look like this:

Decker/McKnight/Brandon
Green/Kuznia/Pittman or Keise
Carpenter*/Stoudermire/Allen

*Assuming he picks up the offense quickly enough.

McKnight is #4 or the first out of the two deep.

Decker's position at the next level is slot but he will move inside and outside with our offense. Stoudermire is also ideally a slot WR but considering he is probably the third fastest WR on the team (1-Hayo 2-Bryant Allen 3-Stoudermire) and second fastest in the two-deep I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the outside to stretch the defense and allow Decker to work underneath.

 

[dpodoll68]

I assumed that if you were going to question the move to WR that you would have seen the spring game so you had a basis for questioning it.

But, I do have a basis for questioning it. That's the point of this entire thread.

1. The fact that he started his college career as a CB.
2. We have more depth now and into the future at WR.
3. Our staff has been able to recruit more, and higher-rated, talent at WR than CB.
4. We can still do the things we did with him last year on offense if he were a full-time CB.

Nonetheless, thank you for the detailed analysis. That's what I was looking for; to me, the fact that he's "explosive" or "good with the ball in his hands" is nowhere near enough of a reason to switch him to offense, especially with the threadbare depth we have at CB.

Though I still disagree with the decision, I am beginning to warm to the other side and can at least see some of the benefits.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

dpodoll68 - you seem like a well written version of

our dear old friend Moses87 who raison d'etre was trying to convince us that Adam Weber would be a better tight end than quarterback.

Signed,

The Mounds View Cabal

 

[dpodoll68]

our dear old friend Moses87 who raison d'etre was trying to convince us that Adam Weber would be a better tight end than quarterback.

Signed,

The Mounds View Cabal

Dear MVC,

I figured someone would bring that up eventually. The difference here is that Weber was a QB from the beginning. Stoudermire was a CB from the beginning. It stands to reason that, if you feel keeping Weber at QB was the right move, you can also see how I feel that keeping Stoudermire at CB would have been the right move.

Signed,

dp68

 

[GophersInIowa]

But, I do have a basis for questioning it. That's the point of this entire thread.

1. The fact that he started his college career as a CB.
2. We have more depth now and into the future at WR.
3. Our staff has been able to recruit more, and higher-rated, talent at WR than CB.
4. We can still do the things we did with him last year on offense if he were a full-time CB.

Nonetheless, thank you for the detailed analysis. That's what I was looking for; to me, the fact that he's "explosive" or "good with the ball in his hands" is nowhere near enough of a reason to switch him to offense, especially with the threadbare depth we have at CB.

Though I still disagree with the decision, I am beginning to warm to the other side and can at least see some of the benefits.

I have a feeling that if he started his college career at CB and did well, he would still be there. I'm guessing he didn't do very well so the coaches switched him to WR.

What reason would be good enough for you to switch him to offense? Electricfyingly explosive? Great with the rock in his paws?

 

[dpodoll68]

I have a feeling that if he started his college career at CB and did well, he would still be there. I'm guessing he didn't do very well so the coaches switched him to WR.

That is the obvious answer. As I have already stated, that may be the case, but even if so, I don't feel the length of time they gave him at CB was sufficient to determine that he couldn't play there. Why switch a guy who was a QB to defense if you're going to give up on him after preseason practice and a handful of games?

What reason would be good enough for you to switch him to offense? Electricfyingly explosive? Great with the rock in his paws?

Are you...are you serious? That's what literally this entire thread has been about. If you can't go back and read, I'm not going to spoonfeed you something I've already said at least 3 or 4 times.

 

[KoolAid]

No QB from Dallas has ever been good at wideout.

 

[Schnoodler]

our dear old friend Moses87 who raison d'etre was trying to convince us that Adam Weber would be a better tight end than quarterback.

Signed,

The Mounds View Cabal

There was a Moses sighting just a couple of short days ago. I had a really tough time refraining from bringing the weber to TE thing up. He had been absent so long, didn't seem very welcoming.

 

[dpodoll68]

No QB from Dallas has ever been good at wideout.

Just FYI...not that you care or anything...

Since your recent schtick is to exclusively make "jokes", I just thought I'd let you know...

Exactly one of them has been funny:

"Those are some great top fives."

The rest? Not clever, inventive, or funny.

Since the point of jokes is to, you know, be funny.

That is all.

 

[Maximus]

Dear MVC,

I figured someone would bring that up eventually. The difference here is that Weber was a QB from the beginning. Stoudermire was a CB from the beginning.

Stoudermire was a quarterback and cornerback from the beginning...we just have one qb on the roster who has taken a snap. Someone call Brew.

 

[oleboy41]

But, I do have a basis for questioning it. That's the point of this entire thread.

1. The fact that he started his college career as a CB.
2. We have more depth now and into the future at WR.
3. Our staff has been able to recruit more, and higher-rated, talent at WR than CB.
4. We can still do the things we did with him last year on offense if he were a full-time CB.

Nonetheless, thank you for the detailed analysis. That's what I was looking for; to me, the fact that he's "explosive" or "good with the ball in his hands" is nowhere near enough of a reason to switch him to offense, especially with the threadbare depth we have at CB.

Though I still disagree with the decision, I am beginning to warm to the other side and can at least see some of the benefits.

I"m wondering why the fact (or potential fact) that he's explosive with the ball in his hands isn't enough to move him to offense? Don't you agree that having playmakers is essential to an offense's success? Don't you also agree that we don't have many guys who fit that bill?

 

[KoolAid]

Just FYI...not that you care or anything...

Since your recent schtick is to exclusively make "jokes", I just thought I'd let you know...

Exactly one of them has been funny:

"Those are some great top fives."

The rest? Not clever, inventive, or funny.

Since the point of jokes is to, you know, be funny.

That is all.

Boulder dash...

 

[dpodoll68]

Stoudermire was a quarterback and cornerback from the beginning...we just have one qb on the roster who has taken a snap. Someone call Brew.

Really? They played/practiced Stoudermire at QB last year? I guess I must've missed that.

You're right - clearly we play as many as 4 QB on the field at once, so our lack of experienced QB depth is an issue.

 

[dpodoll68]

I"m wondering why the fact (or potential fact) that he's explosive with the ball in his hands isn't enough to move him to offense?

Why weren't these guys moved to offense?

Deion Sanders
Ed Reed
Charles Woodson

They all were/are explosive with the ball. Why didn't their teams move them to WR?

Don't you agree that having playmakers is essential to an offense's success? Don't you also agree that we don't have many guys who fit that bill?

I do indeed agree with both of those statements. However, as I have stated many times already in this thread, there was no need to move him to offense if all you're going to do is, in one way or another, hand or pitch him the ball. You don't need WR skills (hands, route running, blocking, etc.) to do that. Charles Woodson won a Heisman by doing this (while staying on defense).

If they do plan on turning him into a traditional WR, then fine. Grunkiejr said he's seen evidence of it already.

 

[KoolAid]

Really? They played/practiced Stoudermire at QB last year? I guess I must've missed that.

Actually Troy got plently of reps at QB last year. There were at least 2 weeks where he played QB exclusively. One was the Illinois game where it looked like Weber wouldn't play. Troy was going to be the 3rd string guy that week. The other week was after Weber broke his nose - but same thing, 3rd string.

Ever since the Illinois game, TS was the emergency quarterback (Brew's words).

 

[Maximus]

Why weren't these guys moved to offense?

Deion Sanders
Ed Reed
Charles Woodson

They all were/are explosive with the ball. Why didn't their teams move them to WR?

Because Minnesota circa '09 doesn't equate to Florida State (late 80s), Miami (early '00s) and Michigan (1997), respectively. Hopefully soon.

 

[GoAUpher]

That is the obvious answer. As I have already stated, that may be the case, but even if so, I don't feel the length of time they gave him at CB was sufficient to determine that he couldn't play there. Why switch a guy who was a QB to defense if you're going to give up on him after preseason practice and a handful of games?

This is where you completely lost me. You just stipulated that even if the coaches made the decision based on their review of his skills and the team's needs that it would still be the wrong one b/c it didn't match your criteria on a timeline. Really? You're right, everyone else is wrong on this (including the coaching staff). Got it.

Also, to answer your question from above (Why switch a guy who was a QB to defense if you're going to give up on him after preseason practice and a handful of games?)...maybe he sucked? If he was good enough to play both ways he could (unless he was a starting WR/main part of the offense) and you've always been right about that. But he isn't going to and its b/c the coaching staff has decided so. Oddly enough they are making this decision w/o consulting you. Deal with it.

 

[ditt1605]

I actually had the same question regarding WR vs CB. My thinking is that Allen is the same type of player and having 2 "percy harvin" types at WR might be too much of a good thing. The reason I thought they should move Troy back to CB was that he's had previous experience, he wouldn't be tired after KR or PR duties (I'll accept that he'd be tired at CB after returning all those kicks to the house) and I really think he would be one of our top CB options.

I can understand and have seen why he's good on offense, but I just think we'd be better off with him on D. It's probably from all these years with a decent O and terrible D. In this case, assuming Allen works out, we would still have the percy harvin type on O but be gaining another playmaker on D.

 

[grunkiejr]

I actually had the same question regarding WR vs CB. My thinking is that Allen is the same type of player and having 2 "percy harvin" types at WR might be too much of a good thing. The reason I thought they should move Troy back to CB was that he's had previous experience, he wouldn't be tired after KR or PR duties (I'll accept that he'd be tired at CB after returning all those kicks to the house) and I really think he would be one of our top CB options.

I can understand and have seen why he's good on offense, but I just think we'd be better off with him on D. It's probably from all these years with a decent O and terrible D. In this case, assuming Allen works out, we would still have the percy harvin type on O but be gaining another playmaker on D.

That was actually my belief after we got the commitment from Allen too. Stoudermire's move to WR last year made sense to me because our offense lacked players that good pickup yards after the catch. Of the WR's on the roster he was by far the most likely to break a bubble screen for a big play. With the addition of Carpenter and Allen we should have true playmakers that can stretch a defense and pickup YAC. Allen's skill set is very similar skill set to that of Stoudermire which possibly reduces the need for him at WR.

Only time will tell if Stoudermire will move back to CB. It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see him moved back but if that were to happen the coaches would likely wait until they were comfortable with Carpenter and Allen's grasp of the offense. I can see a reason for keeping him there (great with ball in his hands and fits in to 2-deep at WR) and I can see a reason for moving him back to CB. Considering Collado was playing ahead of him last year I don't necessarily think it is a fair assumption he would be in the top 4 CB's thgis year--BPT, Sherels, Carter, Collado--but he could compete for #2 CB & Nickel back next year.

 

[GopherFan75]

Just FYI...not that you care or anything...

Since your recent schtick is to exclusively make "jokes", I just thought I'd let you know...

Exactly one of them has been funny:

"Those are some great top fives."

The rest? Not clever, inventive, or funny.

Since the point of jokes is to, you know, be funny.

That is all.

Actually, KoolAid has had plenty of great jokes and is a very funny guy (which we can't say the same about you). My personal favorite was the one he made about you in the Pittman thread.
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