Why does Minnesota only have one division 1 program in major sports (fb and bb)?

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I was mostly talking about football and if we had a school the size of Iowa State located in outstate Minnesota. I am surprised we don't have a school like Creighton located in the metro. I guess that would be St. Thomas.
 

discochris said:
This gets discussed a lot. It just evolved that way - I don't think there was any specific reason why. One thing that's a little different about Wisconsin, is that almost all the UW schools are D-3, the exceptions being the three D-1 schools, and for some reason, UW-Parkside in Kenosha is the only D-2 school. A lot of the other UW schools don't have football either.

The Dakota schools more or less grew equally with each other - same with Iowa and ISU, and similar to Michigan/MSU etc. We didn't really have a Minnesota and Minnesota State to speak of (though Mankato and Moorhead have now changed their names to call themselves that.) The U is the major land grant and liberal arts/engineering/agriculture/medicine/law etc. college in the state, while that role is split in other states.

It's often debated if other schools in the state should/could move up to D1. (no, hockey does not count - it's a completely separate animal and is treated differently by the NCAA as there is no D2 anymore). It all comes down to money and support.

St. Cloud and MSU-Mankato are the largest schools, but from what I've heard, the cost would be too great to make the jump, and they don't think the support is there among the communities and the alumni. Maybe if someone like a Glen Taylor (Mankato grad) wanted to be a Phil Knight type benefactor, it could happen, but I don't see it. I can't speak for these two schools, but I did graduate from an MnSCU university, and people could not have cared less about the sports programs. If it's anything similar, there's no point.

I think the best shot either had was a few years ago when SCSU was seriously considering dropping football. By dropping football and the associated costs, they probably could have afforded to move the rest of the progams up to D1. Not sure if this was part of their thinking, but it's moot because they kept football.

That leaves St. Thomas. They have the money, the enrollment, and the alumni support (I'm always amazed at how different that is at a private school). They also have the facilities. They said last year or so that they don't have any plans to move to D1, but I would not be the least bit surprised if that changed. They're so far above the rest of the MIAC now and the gap is getting much wider. A move to D2 makes no sense for them - I think they'll eventually move up.
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The interest in support in Minnesota's DII athletics is anemic. St Cloud State very nearly killed football over budget concerns and MSU has cut football twice in the past and recently passed on reclassification, content to stay in the putrid Northern Sun and play WCHA hockey. MSU does have the best possible source of donors to cultivate in Glen Taylor and Mr. Bresnan from the Communication outfit by the same name, both of whom have athletic facilities already bearing their names, one of which is a fine basketball arena. Perhaps the loss of prestige in hockey (MSU was left behind in the college hockey conference shuffle) will change the perspective in Mankato. The administration had pegged the pervert/disgraced head coach for a fundraising position in the athletic dept. with one possible mission of upgrading or replacing Blakesly Field. It makes no sense to replace Blakesly Field, which is a fine DII facility and very superior to the unglorified high school fields many of the NSIC teams play on, unless there are higher asperations for the department.

St Thomas seems quite content dominating the MIAC. Were they inclined to reclassify to DI, now would seem to be the time to strike. The new "Catholic 7" basketball league comes to mind. Why wouldn't they want in the MSP market? Failing that, why not the Missouri Valley Conference? Creighton is leaving for the Catholic 7 and the MVC has expressed a desire to maintain the same private/public balance. It woud seem the that reclassification is nowhere on StT's radar.
 

Dwight Schrute said:
Maroon Five, your statement just is not accurate...Many d1 schools are much smaller then St Cloud or Mankato or Duluth. They support those programs just fine. Gonzaga is a very small school and they compete in hoops.
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Duke has an undergrad population of about 6000.
 

Swede said:
The interest in support in Minnesota's DII athletics is anemic. St Cloud State very nearly killed football over budget concerns and MSU has cut football twice in the past and recently passed on reclassification, content to stay in the putrid Northern Sun and play WCHA hockey. MSU does have the best possible source of donors to cultivate in Glen Taylor and Mr. Bresnan from the Communication outfit by the same name, both of whom have athletic facilities already bearing their names, one of which is a fine basketball arena. Perhaps the loss of prestige in hockey (MSU was left behind in the college hockey conference shuffle) will change the perspective in Mankato. The administration had pegged the pervert/disgraced head coach for a fundraising position in the athletic dept. with one possible mission of upgrading or replacing Blakesly Field. It makes no sense to replace Blakesly Field, which is a fine DII facility and very superior to the unglorified high school fields many of the NSIC teams play on, unless there are higher asperations for the department.

St Thomas seems quite content dominating the MIAC. Were they inclined to reclassify to DI, now would seem to be the time to strike. The new "Catholic 7" basketball league comes to mind. Why wouldn't they want in the MSP market? Failing that, why not the Missouri Valley Conference? Creighton is leaving for the Catholic 7 and the MVC has expressed a desire to maintain the same private/public balance. It woud seem the that reclassification is nowhere on StT's radar.
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If you've only ever been to Concordia-St. Paul games, I can see how you might feel that way, but Northern Sun basketball has the 2nd highest attendance in the nation, and some of the best facilities in football and basketball. If your standard for high school football fields is Texas, I could maybe see where you're coming from.

St. Thomas to the new big East could have maybe happened had they transitioned to D1 ten years ago. You wouldn't start out in the Big East, you'd have to work your way up by way of the Horizon or Summitt.
 

UST is the only other school in Minnesota that would EVER have a shot at going D1; they would probably have to drop FB to do so which makes the proposition unrealistic at best.
 


Whether a school could or would make the jump or not, I can't see one doing so until O'Bannon v. NCAA is resolved.
 

Dwight Schrute said:
How does UND, NDSU, SDSU etc draw any fans? They have under 1MM state population to draw from. The Twin Cities alone has almost 4MM. Iowa has 4 d1 teams, and they make it work. Yes 4, with a population less then that of MN. No one has interest in d2 sports, but they do in d1. Gonzaga a tiny school supports d1 hoops just fine...As does U of WI Green Bay...That is not the reason. The reason is political mostly along with the financial constraints a school has to go through to get this done.
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They're the only show in town. Having pro sports and/or other major college teams in the same city makes a huge difference, and yes it affects the Gophers.
 

Colorado has as many pro sports teams with a just under the same population. CU is up in boulder 99k, CSU in Ft. Collins 145k, DU is in Denver, Air Force in Colorado Springs 425k, and Northern Colorado is in Greely 94k. Boulder is just 25 miles from Denver just like many large Minnesota suburbs. So based on populations you would think Rochester, Duluth, Moorhead-Fargo, could support division 1 teams.
 

Most states had one large University such as the U of Minnesota, U of Michigan, U of Wisconsin. When the land grant funds came out in the 1860's and 1870's to help establish ag schools and industrial schools, most states took the money and started a second large state university. Such as U of Michigan and Michigan State, U of Indiana and Indiana State, U of Iowa and Iowa State.

Minnesota and Wisconsin chose to take these funds and spread them out more regionally to fund smaller regional state universities to increase access. I think it was a good move educationally.
 



Realistically, the only two Division II schools that have a chance to reclassify to Division I are MSU-Mankato and St Cloud State. And neither are very realistic. Both schools would likely have to drop football in order to move up (much like Nebraska-Omaha, recently), and I don't see that happening.
 

I seem to recall hearing that the Saint Paul campus used to be a separate university called Minnesota A&M, which was then absorbed into the U of M sometime early in the 20th Century. If I have indeed remembered correctly, then that would explain at least in part why there isn't a second major state school here.
 

I agree that St.Thomas is the only real chance. There is no reason they could not be successful as a no-football D1 school like the Catholic 7. But just now they're having too much fun with football to drop football. But quick, name the private schools that have D1 football. Ah, Notre Dame, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, SMU, TCU...I'm sure there's more, but not many. Most of them have $billion endowments. St. Thomas has lots of money, but not that kind of money. So unless and until they're inclined to drop football, D1 doesn't look likely. Though as a basketball fan, I wish they would. Even D2 would be good. It kills me that there is only 1 D2 school in the metro.

The state colleges are very unlike to move up, ditto UMD. The money's just not there.
 

sunnyday2 said:
I agree that St.Thomas is the only real chance. There is no reason they could not be successful as a no-football D1 school like the Catholic 7. But just now they're having too much fun with football to drop football. But quick, name the private schools that have D1 football. Ah, Notre Dame, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, SMU, TCU...I'm sure there's more, but not many. Most of them have $billion endowments. St. Thomas has lots of money, but not that kind of money. So unless and until they're inclined to drop football, D1 doesn't look likely. Though as a basketball fan, I wish they would. Even D2 would be good. It kills me that there is only 1 D2 school in the metro.

The state colleges are very unlike to move up, ditto UMD. The money's just not there.
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USC, Miami, Boston College, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, Baylor, BYU, Wake Forest
 



SJUgopher said:
USC, Miami, Boston College, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, Baylor, BYU, Wake Forest
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The only school on that list that doesn't have considerably more money than UST is Miami. And they still have another ~$200million more than UST does.
 

westcoastgopher11 said:
The only school on that list that doesn't have considerably more money than UST is Miami. And they still have another ~$200million more than UST does.
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If the uSTDs went d1, they certainly wouldn't play fbs FB, likely FCS like Drake.
 

The fact there is only one D1 school in the state is great. Why divide the amount of Gopher fan base we have.
 



http://minnesotahoops.blogspot.ca/2013/01/time-for-st-thomas-to-move-on-up.html

History in the Making: Basketball in the North Star State
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This Blog
Linked From Here

Monday, January 14, 2013Time for St. Thomas to Move On Up!?
Random thoughts while watching the St. Thomas men demolish St. John's 94-63 in a game in which everyone agreed that St. John's played well....

90 years ago Carleton was the powerhouse of Minnesota small college athletics. After 6 straight MCC (the forerunner of the MIAC) basketball titles and similar success in football, Carleton went in search of tougher competition, joining the Midwest Conference featuring schools like Coe and Beloit and Grinnell. It would be about 50 years before the Knights would come back to the MIAC, their glory years by then far in the rear-view mirror.

Today it is St. Thomas that is the 800-pound gorilla of Minnesota small college athletics. In basketball, the Tommies men have won or shared 7 straight conference titles and won a total of 31 such titles, 8 more than anybody else, through the years. They're 71-3 in the conference since 2006, and St. Thomas won the national title in 2011.

The Tommies women, meanwhile, have won 13 MIAC titles, tying with St. Ben's for the most in conference history. They've won 2 straight, and made the NCAA D3 Final Four last year.

And so it goes, in sport after sport after sport.

Men's Sports

Baseball--31 conference titles, #1 all-time in the MIAC, with 9 in a row and a 224-36 record in the 21st century.

Cross-Country--24 titles, #1

Ice Hockey--28 titles, #1

Indoor Track--27 titles, #1. Oh, and the MIAC has had indoor track competition for, ah, 27 years. The Tommies are 27-for-27.

Outdoor Track--29 titles, #1, including 24 of the past 29.

Then there's football (16 titles, #4, but 3 in a row and national runner-up this past fall), Golf (9 titles, #4), Swimming (10 titles, #4), Soccer (6 titles, #4) and Tennis (9 titles, #7). In only Soccer and Tennis has there not been a title in the 21st century.

Women's Sports

Cross-Country--15 titles, #1

Indoor Track--24 titles, #1, 12 in a row and 24 of 27 overall

Outdoor Track--27 titles, #1, 7 in a row and 27 of 30

Softball--17 titles, #1, 10 of the past 12

Volleyball--13 titles, #1

Golf--8 titles #2

Hockey--2 titles, #2

Tennis--1 title, #3

Soccer--4 titles, #4

Swimming--no titles

Enrollment

Then there's the fact that St. Thomas has almost twice the enrollment of the MIAC's next largest universities with 6,800 undergraduate students (plus another 4,000 graduate students, but for athletic purposes, they don't count). Next best are St. Catherine's at 3,800 and Bethel at 3,500. Granted, this is a little misleading, as St. Kate's enrollment is 97 percent women, so for women, St. Thomas is the 2nd largest. For men, it is the largest by a good margin with about 3,300. St. John's has just 1,900. It and Bethel are pretty close for #2.

St. Thomas 6,300 undergraduates (plus 4,000 graduate students)
St. Catherine's 3,800 undergrads (mostly women)
Bethel 3,500 (plus 3,000 graduate students)
Augsburg 3,200 (plus 900)
St. Olaf 3,200
Concordia (Moorhead) 2,600
Gustavus 2,500
St. Ben's 2,100 (all women)
Carleton, Hamline, Macalester, St. Mary's about 2,000 (St. Mary's has 3,200 grad students, Hamline 2,900)
St. John's 1,900 (all men)

Concordia (St. Paul) (D2) for comparison 1,700

Show Me the Money

Then there's the little matter of money, as measured by the endowment funds. These are a big help with facilties, for example. Is it a coincidence that St. Thomas and Macalester have shiny new basketball arenas?

Macalester $665 million (acc. to US News)
Carleton $645 million (acc. to the school)
St. Thomas $335 (acc. to US News), $408 (acc. to the school), $557 (acc. to Wikipedia)
St. Olaf $327 (the school), $345 (US News and Wikipedia)

St. John's $144 (US News)
Gustavus $109 (US News)
Concordia (Moorhead) $83 (US News)
Hamline $76 (US News, Wikipedia)
St. Kate's $55 (US News)
St. Mary's $45 (US News)
St. Ben's $45 (US News), $38 (Wikipedia)
Augsburg $33 (US News)
Bethel $25 (US News)

Concordia (St.Paul) for comparison $22 (US News)

MIAC + Concordia St. Paul Average: Enrollment 2,600 Endowment $195M

Comparables

Who is St. Thomas like? The following are all Roman Catholic affiliated. All are D1 in basketball. Many do not have football.

St. Thomas 6,300 undergrad enrollment, classified as a National University and rated #113 in its class, with an endowment of $400 to $500 million

Chicago Loyola 9,800 National University #106, $388 million
Boston College 9,000 National U #31, 1,756M
St. Louis 8,600 National U #92, $880M
Marquette 8,400, National U #83, $400M
Georgetown 7,600, National U #21, $1,162M
Duquesne 5,600 National U #120, $171M
St. Joseph's 5,500, Regional U #8, $173M
Seton Hall 5,100 National U #131, $232M
Xavier 4,500 Regional University #4, $120M
LaSalle 4,500 Regional U #41, $73M
Creighton 4,150 Regional U #1, $300M
Providence 3,850 Regional U #4, $165M
Holy Cross 2,900 National Liberal Arts College #32, $600M

Average D1 Basketball, Not Football: 5,750 enroll, or about 500 less than St. Thomas. $360M endow, or about 10 percent less than St. Thomas.

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More about football via link...
 

tinyarch said:
A D1 school would have to come out of the Private school sector. The legislature won't want to add more spending for D-1 level schools to its public account. There is no real PR reason to add more D-1 schools to the public sector. If the best athletes in MN want to go D-1 they can attend the U of MN. If they are a notch below that then they go to MSU or SCSU. It's a good system for the state and for funding purposes.

Wisconsin does the same thing with it's D1 football. Every other public institution in WI is D2 or lower with a bunch of the Wisconsin schools being D3 and playing in the WIAC. Basketball is a cheaper sport and easier to field more than one D1 school in a state. I'll grant you that perhaps a private university could think about rising to the D1 ranks as a mid-major (think St. Thomas or Concordia), but for football...there's only room for one D1 program in Minnesota.
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People tend to forget that Winona State is one of the top overall Division II athletics programs in the country. Certainly more well-rounded at the DII level (excluding hockey) than SCSU. Minnesota State and Winona State are pretty even as far as I'm concerned.
 

mplarson7 said:
Brookings, SD has a population around 25,000, give or take. Nearly half of that population is provided by SDSU. They are capable of generating revenue for a D1 school, so I would expect St. Cloud or Mankato would be able to handle that as well.
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Wrong, that excludes the university.
 

The University of Minnesota was the original Land Grant College established by the Feds.

The remaining colleges became available thru the actions of the State of Minnesota.
 

BBQ Platypus said:
I seem to recall hearing that the Saint Paul campus used to be a separate university called Minnesota A&M, which was then absorbed into the U of M sometime early in the 20th Century. If I have indeed remembered correctly, then that would explain at least in part why there isn't a second major state school here.
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You were right about Minnesota A&M being a school before being absorbed into the University of Minnesota.
Link to wikipedia, and we all know wikipedia is ALWAYS right.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Golden_Gophers_men's_basketball


And good thing we absorbed the Saint Paul campus because we would have even a harder time recruiting basketball players to play for the Gophers
Excerpt from wikipedia
"The greatest rival of the early years of the program was the Minnesota Aggies, representing the Minnesota School of Agriculture and Mining, which has since been incorporated into the University of Minnesota Twin Cities as the St. Paul campus.[69] Minnesota A&M dominated the Gophers, winning ten consecutive games; Minnesota did not get its first win against the Aggies until 1899."
 

Thugunin said:
And good thing we absorbed the Saint Paul campus because we would have even a harder time recruiting basketball players to play for the Gophers
Excerpt from wikipedia
"The greatest rival of the early years of the program was the Minnesota Aggies, representing the Minnesota School of Agriculture and Mining, which has since been incorporated into the University of Minnesota Twin Cities as the St. Paul campus.[69] Minnesota A&M dominated the Gophers, winning ten consecutive games; Minnesota did not get its first win against the Aggies until 1899."
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Or bad thing, maybe we would be Auggie fans and posting on Aggie Hole.
 

Dwight Schrute said:
Maroon Five, your statement just is not accurate...Many d1 schools are much smaller then St Cloud or Mankato or Duluth. They support those programs just fine. Gonzaga is a very small school and they compete in hoops.
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Rice is extremely small, I believe that they are around 2k students; but have DI Football, Basketball and Baseball
 

I can see it now: Minnesota vs Minnesota A&M at TCF stadium. Preceding that game will be a flag football game between Rochester CC vs Minnesota Duluth.
 

BigGopherFan said:
People tend to forget that Winona State is one of the top overall Division II athletics programs in the country. Certainly more well-rounded at the DII level (excluding hockey) than SCSU. Minnesota State and Winona State are pretty even as far as I'm concerned.
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That might be true since so many of the top DII programs left and schools like Upper Iowa, University of Mary and University of Sioux Falls moved in. DII is gross these days.
 

Saint Thomas moving to D-I could be beneficial for the U. If we played games at UST, that's a very cheap "road trip", both for fans and the team. It probably would bring in more revenue for the non-revenue sports, the games would be better attended.
 

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