Why does Minnesota only have one division 1 program in major sports (fb and bb)?

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JMWZ said:
I attend the University of St Thomas, and I don't think you guys understand that there just aren't enough students and alums to support a D1 basketball of football program. While 6000 undergrads might be enough to support basketball in some areas, it isn't at UST. I wonder how many of you have attended a game. There are 400 people at a typical MIAC game usually. I understand how the move to D1 could attract more fans, but it wouldn't be enough. UST has just recently grown to the current size and experienced its first athletic success in fifty years. Football games are lucky to draw a few thousand as well. The only way I see them moving D1 is if St. Johns moved with them. Its the only football and basketball game every year that gets any real attendance.
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Several (if not dozens) of Division I schools average under 1,000 for attendance at basketball games. Many (again, if not dozens) have gyms/"arenas"/etc. that barely even hold 1,000 at capacity.
 

Schnauzer said:
It is sort of a chicken or egg situation. Other MIAC schools draw really well. Gustavus has had massive basketball crowds and St. Johns is well known for its football crowds. The problem is, those schools are sized and built perfectly for DIII. St. Thomas is a DI or DII sized school playing DIII. I say "chicken or egg" because St. Thomas has always been the largest school in the MIAC and I have wondered if that had something to do with the small crowd sizes. I can't imagine much buzz is created by having D3 athletics mixed in a large enrollement in the middle of an urban area. D3 perhaps isn't the key to pulling that large undergrad crowd together, where D1 would be. Believe me, I know what you are saying. Basketball has been good for decades at St. Thomas and the crowds there have remained tiny. I personally have been to two MIAC playoff games separated by 23 years between Gustavus and St. Thomas where Gustavus fans have badly outnumberd UST fans at both of them despite the games being played at UST.

What would a home and home series with someone like Marquette do? How would those students react if their team found themselves in the tournament? What kind of buzz would be on campus if they were hosting a game televised on ESPN? We will probably never know now that the UST facility plan resulted in a brand new D3 sized basketball arena.
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Okay, I agree with you, that could create a lot of buzz. And I saw a lot of excitement during the deep run in the D3 football run last year and the success in the basketball playoffs seems to bring in fans. Someone mentioned that St. Thomas averaged 1022 fans per game. I never saw even close to that many at a game. And those time when they topped 1000, I doubt half were even from the school.

Brand new student center and athletic center on campus. But is it D1? I don't know, I don't have enough to compare it to. But, as far as a number of rich donors, I'm not sure that's the case. We just had a huge 800 million dollar capital campaign the last few years, but most of it was a lot of small donations even asking students to donate. The big facilities on campus were built by one couple. The Andersons. If they weren't on board, I don't see how I D1 program could succeed at UST.
 

I think a few MN schools could move up but they would need to drop football. St Thomas would have to move to DII before they can move to DI so I don't see them or any private school making the jump.

Any school would need a conference invite before moving up and would need to cut the NCAA a large check(something like $1.4 million). SCSU was very close to making them move from what I understand a few years ago.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Several (if not dozens) of Division I schools average under 1,000 for attendance at basketball games. Many (again, if not dozens) have gyms/"arenas"/etc. that barely even hold 1,000 at capacity.
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http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...ERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab

Some selected average home attendance figures for 2011-12:

Alcorn St. - 794
Bethune-Cookman - 801
Boston Univ. - 981
Brown Univ. - 1,007
UC Riverside - 970
Charleston Southern - 850
Chicago St. - 429 (in Chicago, nonetheless!)
Colgate - 545
Fairleigh Dickinson - 853
New Jersey Tech - 453
Houston Baptist - 628
Texas-Pan Am - 611


...and so on. There were several more. And many of these programs have been established in Division I for decades, so it's not as though they are struggling to gain attendance while they establish a reclassification foothold.

For comparison's sake:

Chicago St. (closest in proximity and also in a major sports/media market): established 1867, 7,131 students, endowment $3.76 MM

St. Thomas: established 1885, 10,316 students, endowment $557 MM

St. Thomas isn't Division I because it doesn't want to be, not because it couldn't be.
 



JMWZ said:
Okay, I agree with you, that could create a lot of buzz. And I saw a lot of excitement during the deep run in the D3 football run last year and the success in the basketball playoffs seems to bring in fans. Someone mentioned that St. Thomas averaged 1022 fans per game. I never saw even close to that many at a game. And those time when they topped 1000, I doubt half were even from the school.

Brand new student center and athletic center on campus. But is it D1? I don't know, I don't have enough to compare it to. But, as far as a number of rich donors, I'm not sure that's the case. We just had a huge 800 million dollar capital campaign the last few years, but most of it was a lot of small donations even asking students to donate. The big facilities on campus were built by one couple. The Andersons. If they weren't on board, I don't see how I D1 program could succeed at UST.
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you apparently didn't go to many basketball games then....http://www.tommiesports.com/mbb/stats/TEAMCUME.HTM

You don't get to $800 Million by getting a lot of small donations. The Anderson's gave $60Million, Where did the rest of the 740 Million come from? $5 donations from the 6000 undergrads?....I was no math major, but that doesn't quite add up
 

FargoBison said:
I think a few MN schools could move up but they would need to drop football. St Thomas would have to move to DII before they can move to DI...
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No they wouldn't.
 






It becomes a money issue plain and simple. There are few that could make the leap for basketball, but football is a different animal because of the cost. St. Thomas is the best candidate to make the jump. They have plenty of money, but I am unsure what they draw for attendance. You are going to need corporate and big money sponsors to make that jump otherwise you will do what South Dakota, North Dakota and South Dakota State needed to do and play most if not all of your non conference games on the road and get killed against better opponents. St. Cloud and Duluth have the potential but you are taking a huge financial risk to make that jump. Yes, North Dakota State has been successful but lets keep in mind that they hired extremely well in Miles and Bohl, but they also have done well in fundraising as well for a school their size and are in a decent size market for drawing attendance. The South Dakota schools are going to struggle long term being in relatively small sized communities. If they were in Rapid City and Sioux Falls it probably would work.

St. Thomas makes the most sense especially for basketball at first. With needing less money and being in the metro they can recruit easier. The Horizon would really make a lot of sense from geography standpoint as well. Football would be much more difficult because of the number of scholarships needed to pay for and an upgrade to the size of their stadium. DIAA would be the best that they could do, but it is definitely possible.

This is just my two cents, but I have friends that work in athletics around the country and they say relatively the same things about why not more teams and the financial aspect.
 

IDFM said:
being in the metro they can recruit easier
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This is a great point. Any school in the area, especially if they are in the metro, could feast on the prospects who are clearly Division I caliber but aren't quite good enough out of HS to be Big Ten. A hypothetical St. Thomas roster this year could've been Wolters, Muscala, Chambers, Lumpkin, etc. - and likely playing in the Summit or MVC, they'd be very competitive very quickly.
 

Did the NCAA adopt that rule? The article talks about proposed rules.
 



goldengophers said:
I went to Gustavus and I am 100% confident they have the support and facilities for at least basketball. Valpo has half the students and nowhere near the alumni base financially.
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I know it will never happen but it is fun to daydream. The facilities are indeed superb, even for Olympic Sports and fan support across nearly all sports is above average, at worst. The football team has been a black eye for most of the past 20 years and Saturday afteroons in St. Peter still draw pretty well (especially homecoming). I've seen the basketball arena filled to capacity (at 3,000 - one of the largest in the MIAC) on several occasions, and as already mentioned... students and alumni travel well for playoff games (brought a HUGE crowd to NCAA playoff game held at neutral site UW River Falls last year).
 

I'd be more interested in seeing Winona go D1 in hoops.

Football would be the deal-breaker for any school, especially with the 15k attendance minimum.
 

I think part of the answer lies in cultural differences. I think by and large people in Minnesota see Universities and Colleges as places of education and take great pride in that. I think other places of the country take more pride in the sporting traditions than the educational aspect of a University or college. I've spent the last few years living in the south. In the city I live in there are three D1 football programs and five D1 basketball programs (none of which are the most popular school, that belongs to another state institution in another city). There seems to be much more enthusiasm for sporting events here than there was in MN. Last year I attended an NIT game at one of the schools and had a hard time getting a ticket. It was absolutely packed. For the NIT.

I don't know if this explains why there is only one D1 school in MN or why schools aren't looking to make the jump in this day and age but there is a noticeable cultural difference about sports. I'll leave you with this thought. I had to stop going to the grocery store on Sunday's because my trip time doubled because of all employees asking about how the football games were going. It is so pervasive that the grocery store employees are encouraged to show their pride in the local pro football team by wearing their jerseys on Sundays instead of the normal green Publix shirts.
 

theTurning said:
I'd be more interested in seeing Winona go D1 in hoops.
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I'd agree, given their recent successes, but their athletic department needs a pretty big upgrade to get it to D-1 standards. I think their total athletic budget for last year was about $2m.

And, as you mentioned, they'd need to cut football.
 


GopherGack said:
I think part of the answer lies in cultural differences. I think by and large people in Minnesota see Universities and Colleges as places of education and take great pride in that.
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That's a good point. Different priorities.
 

Trivia:

1) Name the one state with no D1 schools.

2) Other than Minnesota, name the other four states that each only have one D1 school.
 

burton34 said:
Trivia:

1) Name the one state with no D1 schools.

2) Other than Minnesota, name the other four states that each only have one D1 school.
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I've already looked up the answers but here were my guesses before looking (I wasnt TOO far off)

1. Alaska

2. Maine Wyoming Hawaii Delaware
 

burton34 said:
Trivia:

1) Name the one state with no D1 schools.

2) Other than Minnesota, name the other four states that each only have one D1 school.
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There is no state that has zero D1 schools, that I know of.

Alaska, Wyoming, Maine and Delaware all have D1 sports in at least one sport.

Alaska = Hockey

Maine = Hockey

Wyoming = Football, Basketball etc...

Delaware = Delaware and Delaware State have d1 sports.
 

FargoBison said:
From what I can tell they did.
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I can't find anything that talks about it one way or another. Not saying they weren't adopted, but I can't find anything on it.
The NCAA site talks about transition to D2 and D3, but nothing about D1.

If this is true, I suspect part of it has to do with the transition from a total non-scholarship program to a program with a large number of scholarships, and the D2 membership requirement is a means of easing into that. As I mentioned before, a big reason for the increased restrictions is to keep schools from moving up only to try and get a piece of the basketball tournament pie.

I don't think there are a ton of D3 programs looking to move up. In fact, I see a lot more examples of schools dropping down a level, or even two.
 

tinyarch said:
There is no state that has zero D1 schools, that I know of.

Alaska, Wyoming, Maine and Delaware all have D1 sports in at least one sport.

Alaska = Hockey

Maine = Hockey

Wyoming = Football, Basketball etc...

Delaware = Delaware and Delaware State have d1 sports.
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Having a D1 hockey program does not constitute a school as being D1.
The Alaska schools are like SCSU, Duluth etc. Division 2 schools with D1 hockey.
 

IDFM said:
Yes, North Dakota State has been successful but lets keep in mind that they hired extremely well in Miles and Bohl, but they also have done well in fundraising as well for a school their size and are in a decent size market for drawing attendance.
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NDSU was a pretty easy transition. I lived up there in the early 90's when they were still D2, and a powerhouse at that level. Bison football was incredibly popular even at the D2 level. It only increased when they built the Fargodome. It was a no-brainer for them to move up, and there's been some discussion (not sure how serious) about moving up to the FBS level in football. They easily meet the attendance requirements, but there's a lot of cost involved in making that move (which is why Montana didn't do so.)
 

As for Duluth, the U of M regents would never support a move to FCS/mid-major in all sports up here. It's all about the TC campus. It would be supported up here but I'm not sure they have the alumni backing to support a move to D1 (aside from hockey).

Mid-major moves at SDSU & NDSU have worked out great in SD & ND (I can't comment on UND and USD). Population in Brookings is sparse, and even smaller in Vermillion for USD. Sioux Falls helps holds up both schools with support and they also need to support Augie and USF. I could see a D1 move working in Duluth, Mankato or STC due to proximity to adequate local population and proximity to TC.
 

fryguy22 said:
I've already looked up the answers but here were my guesses before looking (I wasnt TOO far off)

1. Alaska

2. Maine Wyoming Hawaii Delaware
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I don't even need to confirm that you are right, because you already know that.

I've always wanted to see MN add another D1 school. A second school would likely drive the U of MN to be less complacent in their main revenue sports. Heck, look at U of MN hockey. It's perennially amongst the best in the country. One reason for this is because the program has to constantly stay ahead of the other instate D1 programs. Marketplace competition is good.
 

GopherGack said:
I think part of the answer lies in cultural differences. I think by and large people in Minnesota see Universities and Colleges as places of education and take great pride in that. I think other places of the country take more pride in the sporting traditions than the educational aspect of a University or college. I've spent the last few years living in the south. In the city I live in there are three D1 football programs and five D1 basketball programs (none of which are the most popular school, that belongs to another state institution in another city). There seems to be much more enthusiasm for sporting events here than there was in MN. Last year I attended an NIT game at one of the schools and had a hard time getting a ticket. It was absolutely packed. For the NIT.

I don't know if this explains why there is only one D1 school in MN or why schools aren't looking to make the jump in this day and age but there is a noticeable cultural difference about sports. I'll leave you with this thought. I had to stop going to the grocery store on Sunday's because my trip time doubled because of all employees asking about how the football games were going. It is so pervasive that the grocery store employees are encouraged to show their pride in the local pro football team by wearing their jerseys on Sundays instead of the normal green Publix shirts.
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I am curious if being d1 leads to better or worse academic performance? To me it seems some of the best schools are all d1 schools. You might have to exclude some of the Ivy League schools, but they are unique anyway. I would think a successful d1 sports program leads to more university money leads to a rising tide of both academics and athletics for all. I dont know but it would be interesting to see.
 

I have always wondered this. If we had one large state university in lets say St. Cloud with an enrollment of 35 or 40 thousand we would have had a rival in football, basketball, and hockey. All of the state universities in their present form are just too small to support this. It is too bad because St Cloud or Mankato with a large state university would have made a great college town.

Go Gophers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

maroonfive said:
I have always wondered this. If we had one large state university in lets say St. Cloud with an enrollment of 35 or 40 thousand we would have had a rival in football, basketball, and hockey. All of the state universities in their present form are just too small to support this. It is too bad because St Cloud or Mankato with a large state university would have made a great college town.

Go Gophers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Maroon Five, your statement just is not accurate...Many d1 schools are much smaller then St Cloud or Mankato or Duluth. They support those programs just fine. Gonzaga is a very small school and they compete in hoops.
 

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