Why does Minnesota only have one division 1 program in major sports (fb and bb)?

[Dwight Schrute]

Why does Minnesota only have one division one program for football and basketball?

States with Similar population to Minnesota seem to have many more schools involved in Division 1 athletics them Minnesota. Why is this?

Iowa(4) = Iowa, Iowa State, N Iowa, Drake
Wisconsin(4) = Marquette, U of W, U of W Milwaukee, U of W green bay
Nebraska (3) = U of Neb, U of Nebraska Omaha, Creighton
North Dakota (2) = UND, NDSU
South Dakota (2) = SDSU, USD

I personally think a little competition in the state might help the U of MN raise its expectations bar a little. I would think SCSU or MSU, U of MN Duluth could all field teams, or maybe schools like St. Thomas as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_institutions

 

[JMWZ]

I would think that we could field more teams, but the areas around Mankato and St. Cloud might not be densely packed enough to generate needed revenues. The problem is that our schools are spread out quite a lot, but most of the population is in the metropolitan area.

 

[upnorthkid]

yeah its pretty simple, there isn't the population density in a city that would generate enough revenue for the program to make the jump to D1. its a huge investment to get yourself on that level. i mean it wasn't too long ago that both und and ndsu were both at the d2 level.

 

[mplarson7]

Brookings, SD has a population around 25,000, give or take. Nearly half of that population is provided by SDSU. They are capable of generating revenue for a D1 school, so I would expect St. Cloud or Mankato would be able to handle that as well.

 

[tinyarch]

A D1 school would have to come out of the Private school sector. The legislature won't want to add more spending for D-1 level schools to its public account. There is no real PR reason to add more D-1 schools to the public sector. If the best athletes in MN want to go D-1 they can attend the U of MN. If they are a notch below that then they go to MSU or SCSU. It's a good system for the state and for funding purposes.

Wisconsin does the same thing with it's D1 football. Every other public institution in WI is D2 or lower with a bunch of the Wisconsin schools being D3 and playing in the WIAC. Basketball is a cheaper sport and easier to field more than one D1 school in a state. I'll grant you that perhaps a private university could think about rising to the D1 ranks as a mid-major (think St. Thomas or Concordia), but for football...there's only room for one D1 program in Minnesota.

 

[upnorthkid]

also, a lot of schools put a large investment into hockey (since you know, we are the state of hockey and all )

that in itself makes it hard for smaller schools with lesser budgets to get the financing to make the jump. look at what's going on at denver right now. this is partial rumor mill stuff but its rumored their coach for hockey (who imo is a great coach) was fired because they are trying to shuttle the money into basketball now since they are D1 and looking more competitive. there's only so much green to go around

 

[disco]

This gets discussed a lot. It just evolved that way - I don't think there was any specific reason why. One thing that's a little different about Wisconsin, is that almost all the UW schools are D-3, the exceptions being the three D-1 schools, and for some reason, UW-Parkside in Kenosha is the only D-2 school. A lot of the other UW schools don't have football either.

The Dakota schools more or less grew equally with each other - same with Iowa and ISU, and similar to Michigan/MSU etc. We didn't really have a Minnesota and Minnesota State to speak of (though Mankato and Moorhead have now changed their names to call themselves that.) The U is the major land grant and liberal arts/engineering/agriculture/medicine/law etc. college in the state, while that role is split in other states.

It's often debated if other schools in the state should/could move up to D1. (no, hockey does not count - it's a completely separate animal and is treated differently by the NCAA as there is no D2 anymore). It all comes down to money and support.

St. Cloud and MSU-Mankato are the largest schools, but from what I've heard, the cost would be too great to make the jump, and they don't think the support is there among the communities and the alumni. Maybe if someone like a Glen Taylor (Mankato grad) wanted to be a Phil Knight type benefactor, it could happen, but I don't see it. I can't speak for these two schools, but I did graduate from an MnSCU university, and people could not have cared less about the sports programs. If it's anything similar, there's no point.

I think the best shot either had was a few years ago when SCSU was seriously considering dropping football. By dropping football and the associated costs, they probably could have afforded to move the rest of the progams up to D1. Not sure if this was part of their thinking, but it's moot because they kept football.

That leaves St. Thomas. They have the money, the enrollment, and the alumni support (I'm always amazed at how different that is at a private school). They also have the facilities. They said last year or so that they don't have any plans to move to D1, but I would not be the least bit surprised if that changed. They're so far above the rest of the MIAC now and the gap is getting much wider. A move to D2 makes no sense for them - I think they'll eventually move up.

 

[march madness]

similar populations?

Wisconsin is the only one with a similar population. The Dakotas are way under a million each. Colorado where I currently reside has 5 teams and our population is less than Minnesota's and there is slightly less high school talent here. It would be nice to have other Minnesota teams to cheer for in those season the gophers are not bringing it.

Why does Minnesota only have one division one program for football and basketball?

States with Similar population to Minnesota seem to have many more schools involved in Division 1 athletics them Minnesota. Why is this?

Iowa(4) = Iowa, Iowa State, N Iowa, Drake
Wisconsin(4) = Marquette, U of W, U of W Milwaukee, U of W green bay
Nebraska (3) = U of Neb, U of Nebraska Omaha, Creighton
North Dakota (2) = UND, NDSU
South Dakota (2) = SDSU, USD

I personally think a little competition in the state might help the U of MN raise its expectations bar a little. I would think SCSU or MSU, U of MN Duluth could all field teams, or maybe schools like St. Thomas as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_institutions

 

[Nokomis]

I think the main reason is that MN has so many smaller colleges. A quick internet search told me MN has nearly 200 colleges & universities; Wisconsin has 85; Iowa has 60.

 

[Iceland12]

also, a lot of schools put a large investment into hockey (since you know, we are the state of hockey and all )

that in itself makes it hard for smaller schools with lesser budgets to get the financing to make the jump. look at what's going on at denver right now. this is partial rumor mill stuff but its rumored their coach for hockey (who imo is a great coach) was fired because they are trying to shuttle the money into basketball now since they are D1 and looking more competitive. there's only so much green to go around

Which begs the question why wouldn't BSU, Mankato, Denver, St.Cloud and Duluth be considered "D-1" schools the same way schools like Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall etc. are? They're all "one sport" schools aren't they?

Just a "March Madness" prejudice?

 

[Schnauzer]

I don't know the answer specifically, but I believe most of the answers thus far are given with a current events perspective. I think the actual answer falls farther back in history. Both St. Cloud and Mankato are the types of schools that developed into D1 style athletic institutions 60-100 years ago, elsewhere. They certainly have the locations and enrollments that would have made it work yesteryear. Not as easy now, for all the financial reasons already stated.

 

[Gopher07]

also, a lot of schools put a large investment into hockey (since you know, we are the state of hockey and all )

that in itself makes it hard for smaller schools with lesser budgets to get the financing to make the jump. look at what's going on at denver right now. this is partial rumor mill stuff but its rumored their coach for hockey (who imo is a great coach) was fired because they are trying to shuttle the money into basketball now since they are D1 and looking more competitive. there's only so much green to go around

This is a good point. I imagine a school like Duluth, who has about an $8m athletic budget, would be fielding a D-1 basketball team if they weren't pumping money into hockey instead.

 

[SJUgopher]

Which begs the question why wouldn't BSU, Mankato, Denver, St.Cloud and Duluth be considered "D-1" schools the same way schools like Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall etc. are? They're all "one sport" schools aren't they?

Just a "March Madness" prejudice?

Villanova plays all sports at a D-1 level - FB/BB/CC/Track/LAX/Golf/Soccer/Etc

 

[RodentRampage]

Which begs the question why wouldn't BSU, Mankato, Denver, St.Cloud and Duluth be considered "D-1" schools the same way schools like Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall etc. are? They're all "one sport" schools aren't they?

Just a "March Madness" prejudice?

BSU, Mankato, Saint Cloud and Duluth are D-II schools that play only one D-I sport. The other schools you mention - including Denver - are D-I schools, all of the sports that they do offer are D-I. Villanova and Georgetown offer FCS football, while Denver, Marquette and Seton Hall don't offer football.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

This gets discussed a lot. It just evolved that way - I don't think there was any specific reason why. One thing that's a little different about Wisconsin, is that almost all the UW schools are D-3, the exceptions being the three D-1 schools, and for some reason, UW-Parkside in Kenosha is the only D-2 school. A lot of the other UW schools don't have football either.

The Dakota schools more or less grew equally with each other - same with Iowa and ISU, and similar to Michigan/MSU etc. We didn't really have a Minnesota and Minnesota State to speak of (though Mankato and Moorhead have now changed their names to call themselves that.) The U is the major land grant and liberal arts/engineering/agriculture/medicine/law etc. college in the state, while that role is split in other states.

It's often debated if other schools in the state should/could move up to D1. (no, hockey does not count - it's a completely separate animal and is treated differently by the NCAA as there is no D2 anymore). It all comes down to money and support.

St. Cloud and MSU-Mankato are the largest schools, but from what I've heard, the cost would be too great to make the jump, and they don't think the support is there among the communities and the alumni. Maybe if someone like a Glen Taylor (Mankato grad) wanted to be a Phil Knight type benefactor, it could happen, but I don't see it. I can't speak for these two schools, but I did graduate from an MnSCU university, and people could not have cared less about the sports programs. If it's anything similar, there's no point.

I think the best shot either had was a few years ago when SCSU was seriously considering dropping football. By dropping football and the associated costs, they probably could have afforded to move the rest of the progams up to D1. Not sure if this was part of their thinking, but it's moot because they kept football.

That leaves St. Thomas. They have the money, the enrollment, and the alumni support (I'm always amazed at how different that is at a private school). They also have the facilities. They said last year or so that they don't have any plans to move to D1, but I would not be the least bit surprised if that changed. They're so far above the rest of the MIAC now and the gap is getting much wider. A move to D2 makes no sense for them - I think they'll eventually move up.

Thanks for the good info and explanation. Personally I wonder, regarding athletics, if this lack of state competition for d1 football and basketball hurts the U of MN? It actually lowers the bar, as we are the only d1 game in town. I hope a school like SCSU or St. Thomas decides to make this leap soon. Like we see in Hockey, when the U falters, we still have another team in SCSU to follow. I understand it all comes down to money, but in this regard a rising tide might raise all ships. Outstaters might be more interested if a school like UMD or SCSU also has a spot in D1, or a school like St Thomas makes a Witchita State type run into the final 4.

Those who have said we don't have the population base are purely wrong. Many other smaller states have made this work with far less people. I think the political structure at the State university system has a big part in this and as you pointed out the finances to make a jump are significant. But I assume if Florida Gulf Coast and UND can do this financially, so could a few other MN schools with a much greater population and TV base.

 

[disco]

Which begs the question why wouldn't BSU, Mankato, Denver, St.Cloud and Duluth be considered "D-1" schools the same way schools like Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall etc. are? They're all "one sport" schools aren't they?

Just a "March Madness" prejudice?

No. Hockey is different (Lacrosse might be the same way). Because there is no D-2 any longer, the NCAA makes exceptions for lower division schools to move to D1 in hockey only. This is why there are D3 schools like Colorado College that are allowed to field D1 hockey programs, yet are not allowed scholarships in any other sports.

The programs you mention, like Marquette etc. are not "one sport" schools. Their athletic programs are fully Division 1. They just do not have football teams, or in the case of Drake, they play non-scholarship D1 FCS. There are no D-1 "basketball only" schools, and this is by design. March Madness is a cash cow and the NCAA does not want schools moving up to get in on that alone, to the detriment of other sports.

 

[goldengophers]

I wish St Thomas would.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

A D1 school would have to come out of the Private school sector. The legislature won't want to add more spending for D-1 level schools to its public account. There is no real PR reason to add more D-1 schools to the public sector. If the best athletes in MN want to go D-1 they can attend the U of MN. If they are a notch below that then they go to MSU or SCSU. It's a good system for the state and for funding purposes.

Wisconsin does the same thing with it's D1 football. Every other public institution in WI is D2 or lower with a bunch of the Wisconsin schools being D3 and playing in the WIAC. Basketball is a cheaper sport and easier to field more than one D1 school in a state. I'll grant you that perhaps a private university could think about rising to the D1 ranks as a mid-major (think St. Thomas or Concordia), but for football...there's only room for one D1 program in Minnesota.

Interesting take! My understanding is d1 football and basketball are generally revenue positive, thus you would think this would make a lot of sense to support a few other schools in making this jump, especially in a state with more limited competition for the d1 dollar. I know the state treats the U of MN like it is the forbidden fruit but to give it this type of protection probably hurts the U of MN.

 

[AO54]

I think St. Thomas would jump at the idea of playing D1 Basketball/Football/Hockey if they were allowed to opt up in just those sports. Bemidji, Duluth, St. Cloud and Mankato are allowed to play D1 hockey as they were grandfathered in when the rules changed.

 

[Iceland12]

I think St. Thomas would jump at the idea of playing D1 Basketball/Football/Hockey if they were allowed to opt up in just those sports. Bemidji, Duluth, St. Cloud and Mankato are allowed to play D1 hockey as they were grandfathered in when the rules changed.

Thanks sjugopher, rodent rampage, discochris and AO54; looks like I'm not on as many "ignore lists" as I thought.

 

[burton34]

Thanks sjugopher, rodent rampage, discochris and AO54; looks like I'm not on as many "ignore lists" as I thought.

LOL

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I think St. Thomas would jump at the idea of playing D1 Basketball/Football/Hockey if they were allowed to opt up in just those sports. Bemidji, Duluth, St. Cloud and Mankato are allowed to play D1 hockey as they were grandfathered in when the rules changed.

So if a team makes the move to d1, they must support d1 in all their athletics such as wrestling, baseball, Vollyball plus the title 9 womens sports? I can see how this move would add significant expense if that is true?

Hockey seems unique as it is only played in a limited amount of schools, thus it does not reach the major sport status throughout NCAA sports.

 

[dpodoll68]

Villanova plays all sports at a D-1 level - FB/BB/CC/Track/LAX/Golf/Soccer/Etc

Every school that has Division I basketball has to play all of its sports at the Division I level, unless they had certain minor sports grandfathered in. If they have a football team, they have to play Division I, whether I-A or I-AA. Most avoid the issue by just not fielding a football team.

 

[JMWZ]

I attend the University of St Thomas, and I don't think you guys understand that there just aren't enough students and alums to support a D1 basketball of football program. While 6000 undergrads might be enough to support basketball in some areas, it isn't at UST. I wonder how many of you have attended a game. There are 400 people at a typical MIAC game usually. I understand how the move to D1 could attract more fans, but it wouldn't be enough. UST has just recently grown to the current size and experienced its first athletic success in fifty years. Football games are lucky to draw a few thousand as well. The only way I see them moving D1 is if St. Johns moved with them. Its the only football and basketball game every year that gets any real attendance.

 

[disco]

So if a team makes the move to d1, they must support d1 in all their athletics such as wrestling, baseball, Vollyball plus the title 9 womens sports? I can see how this move would add significant expense if that is true?

Hockey seems unique as it is only played in a limited amount of schools, thus it does not reach the major sport status throughout NCAA sports.

That's correct. There is a difference in the rules with D2 and D3 programs moving up in hockey however.

The D2 schools that play D1 hockey do so because there is no D2 hockey any longer, so their options are to move up in that one sport, which the NCAA allows, or to play a non-championship D3 schedule, where they are not eligible for playoffs - this is what UM-Crookston did, before eliminating hockey altogether.

The D3 schools that play D1 hockey (like CC and some smaller Eastern colleges) are grandfathered in. If I recall, the NCAA today would no longer allow a D3 program to move up to D1 in hockey (or any other minor sport) alone. As a D3 school, they are not supposed to offer any scholarships, period, but since these schools have had major hockey for so long, the NCAA makes an exception for them. If St. Thomas wanted to start D1 hockey but remain D3 for other sports, it would not be allowed today.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I attend the University of St Thomas, and I don't think you guys understand that there just aren't enough students and alums to support a D1 basketball of football program. While 6000 undergrads might be enough to support basketball in some areas, it isn't at UST. I wonder how many of you have attended a game. There are 400 people at a typical MIAC game usually. I understand how the move to D1 could attract more fans, but it wouldn't be enough. UST has just recently grown to the current size and experienced its first athletic success in fifty years. Football games are lucky to draw a few thousand as well. The only way I see them moving D1 is if St. Johns moved with them. Its the only football and basketball game every year that gets any real attendance.

How does UND, NDSU, SDSU etc draw any fans? They have under 1MM state population to draw from. The Twin Cities alone has almost 4MM. Iowa has 4 d1 teams, and they make it work. Yes 4, with a population less then that of MN. No one has interest in d2 sports, but they do in d1. Gonzaga a tiny school supports d1 hoops just fine...As does U of WI Green Bay...That is not the reason. The reason is political mostly along with the financial constraints a school has to go through to get this done.

 

[disco]

Interesting take! My understanding is d1 football and basketball are generally revenue positive, thus you would think this would make a lot of sense to support a few other schools in making this jump, especially in a state with more limited competition for the d1 dollar. I know the state treats the U of MN like it is the forbidden fruit but to give it this type of protection probably hurts the U of MN.

Football isn't revenue-positive at a lot of smaller schools. It's an expensive sport, and what really causes problems is with title IX. Because football rosters are so huge, schools have had to add 2-3 womens sports (or drop 2-3 mens sports) just to comply with title IX. Couple that with the general lack of interest in smaller college football in Minnesota (especially at the state schools), and it would make total sense for a school to drop it entirely if they wanted to move up.

 

[Schnauzer]

I attend the University of St Thomas, and I don't think you guys understand that there just aren't enough students and alums to support a D1 basketball of football program. While 6000 undergrads might be enough to support basketball in some areas, it isn't at UST. I wonder how many of you have attended a game. There are 400 people at a typical MIAC game usually. I understand how the move to D1 could attract more fans, but it wouldn't be enough. UST has just recently grown to the current size and experienced its first athletic success in fifty years. Football games are lucky to draw a few thousand as well. The only way I see them moving D1 is if St. Johns moved with them. Its the only football and basketball game every year that gets any real attendance.

It is sort of a chicken or egg situation. Other MIAC schools draw really well. Gustavus has had massive basketball crowds and St. Johns is well known for its football crowds. The problem is, those schools are sized and built perfectly for DIII. St. Thomas is a DI or DII sized school playing DIII. I say "chicken or egg" because St. Thomas has always been the largest school in the MIAC and I have wondered if that had something to do with the small crowd sizes. I can't imagine much buzz is created by having D3 athletics mixed in a large enrollement in the middle of an urban area. D3 perhaps isn't the key to pulling that large undergrad crowd together, where D1 would be. Believe me, I know what you are saying. Basketball has been good for decades at St. Thomas and the crowds there have remained tiny. I personally have been to two MIAC playoff games separated by 23 years between Gustavus and St. Thomas where Gustavus fans have badly outnumberd UST fans at both of them despite the games being played at UST.

What would a home and home series with someone like Marquette do? How would those students react if their team found themselves in the tournament? What kind of buzz would be on campus if they were hosting a game televised on ESPN? We will probably never know now that the UST facility plan resulted in a brand new D3 sized basketball arena.

 

[goldengophers]

I attend the University of St Thomas, and I don't think you guys understand that there just aren't enough students and alums to support a D1 basketball of football program. While 6000 undergrads might be enough to support basketball in some areas, it isn't at UST. I wonder how many of you have attended a game. There are 400 people at a typical MIAC game usually. I understand how the move to D1 could attract more fans, but it wouldn't be enough. UST has just recently grown to the current size and experienced its first athletic success in fifty years. Football games are lucky to draw a few thousand as well. The only way I see them moving D1 is if St. Johns moved with them. Its the only football and basketball game every year that gets any real attendance.

I went to Gustavus and I am 100% confident they have the support and facilities for at least basketball. Valpo has half the students and nowhere near the alumni base financially.

 

[AO54]

I attend the University of St Thomas, and I don't think you guys understand that there just aren't enough students and alums to support a D1 basketball of football program. While 6000 undergrads might be enough to support basketball in some areas, it isn't at UST. I wonder how many of you have attended a game. There are 400 people at a typical MIAC game usually. I understand how the move to D1 could attract more fans, but it wouldn't be enough. UST has just recently grown to the current size and experienced its first athletic success in fifty years. Football games are lucky to draw a few thousand as well. The only way I see them moving D1 is if St. Johns moved with them. Its the only football and basketball game every year that gets any real attendance.

There are 24 D1 teams that averaged less fans last season than the 1,012 that went to St. Thomas games in 2012-2013. 8 conferences averaged less than 2000 fans per game. 22 of 32 conferences were less than 5000. You don't have to make it to the sweet sixteen and average 10,000 a game to make D1 worthwhile.
http://http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2012.pdf