Which QB do the Vikes draft?

Who you got?

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I don't have a strong opinion on McCarthy's ceiling, but I think as long as KOC is his coach and he has JJ to throw to, he has a pretty high floor. Like Alex Smith/Brock Purdy level.
 


atsgopher said:
I speculate The cheating could actually help his development; e.g. didn’t Ton Brady learn to process and read so well the same way.

Arm Takent Difference between Penix and McCarthy can be coached. I actually can do that much myself; any NFL coach will do this substantially better than me. This is especially true in the ages of 24 vs 21.

I don’t mean to argue no flaws, just trying to list pros, cons, and mitigating factors to cons as well was limitations on pros.
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JJs windup actually looks Tebow-like to me. That’s the first thing that jumped out when I say him. Any QB coming from a strong surrounding cast and an eternity to throw and scramble has to be viewed a little more harshly. Throw in the cheating and I just don’t know how he’s going to perform on a more level playing field. I could absolutely be wrong about him. Most of it ultimately is mental and maybe he’s elite in that category. More talented players have failed.

Look, I HATE UMichigan and everything about their team and fans. I love the state. Michigan is actually pretty awesome. But, for my hatred alone I won’t be sad if he fails. Yep, it’s irrational and even a little sad but hey, that’s sports fans in a nutshell.
 

upnorthkid said:
yep qb on a rookie deal is the easiest way to skyrocket your team to contention if they're good. which is all the reason why the falcons look like complete idiots because even if penix is good, he's sitting behind kirk's massive contract for multiple years and you lose out on his cheap years.

that's part of what worries me with mccarthy in that i don't think he's ready yet (watched every michigan game the last couple years as the significant other is a michigan fan) and i don't think the vikes plan on him playing this year. he still makes too many high danger throws and was playing with + athletes/advantage all the time based on scheme/system (ie his WRs and TEs are all in 1v1 because you get murdered by michigan's run). he does, of the QBs taken, get the most QB friendly system and he's shown he can be pretty good in structure, but I worry about his getting through progressions and only slightly above average arm strength with how many down field throws and across the middle throws on timing KOC likes to run. we shall see, but yeah he's going to get a RS year to learn but by year 2 if he's still not there the fan base is going to get real restless real fast.
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Yep, I mean look at this. This looks like a franchise QB worth spending a high pick on? I can see third round flier. Why not. Every year people talk themselves into seeing things.



 

Pompous Elitist said:
Yep, I mean look at this. This looks like a franchise QB worth spending a high pick on? I can see third round flier. Why not. Every year people talk themselves into seeing things.



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That wasn't one of his stronger games and yet he was 17/27 for 221 YDS 3 TDs 0 INTs and they beat Alabama in the CFP.

If you watch better breakdowns rather than just highlights, and see the reads he makes, how he escapes pressure, some of the tough throws he makes, he definitely looks like a top QB prospect especially doing it all at only 20 years old.

Here's a good example

 


Pompous Elitist said:
JJs windup actually looks Tebow-like to me. That’s the first thing that jumped out when I say him. Any QB coming from a strong surrounding cast and an eternity to throw and scramble has to be viewed a little more harshly. Throw in the cheating and I just don’t know how he’s going to perform on a more level playing field. I could absolutely be wrong about him. Most of it ultimately is mental and maybe he’s elite in that category. More talented players have failed.

Look, I HATE UMichigan and everything about their team and fans. I love the state. Michigan is actually pretty awesome. But, for my hatred alone I won’t be sad if he fails. Yep, it’s irrational and even a little sad but hey, that’s sports fans in a nutshell.
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I'd suggest your Michigan hatred is coloring your view a bit.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Yep, I mean look at this. This looks like a franchise QB worth spending a high pick on? I can see third round flier. Why not. Every year people talk themselves into seeing things.



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3rd round flier is way too aggressive a take, especially in a QB hungry league now where getting them on a rookie deal is a massive advantage.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
That wasn't one of his stronger games and yet he was 17/27 for 221 YDS 3 TDs 0 INTs and they beat Alabama in the CFP.

If you watch better breakdowns rather than just highlights, and see the reads he makes, how he escapes pressure, some of the tough throws he makes, he definitely looks like a top QB prospect especially doing it all at only 20 years old.

Here's a good example

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the issue i have with these kinds of videos is they have NO IDEA what the read sequence is or how they were coached (ie the reads are not all based on what the WR is running, but can be based on what the D sets up in and the key is on a player on defense rather than anything your offensive guy is doing). This one is also clearly biased (claiming he throws something off shoulder when he clearly just didn't even see the guy) and the truth absolutely lies somewhere in the middle on a guy who has less of a body of work than most. But I trust in KOC if he thinks he can get him there and if you fail in this offense which is exceedingly QB friendly, well I think that's the tale of the tape of your nfl career.
 

upnorthkid said:
3rd round flier is way too aggressive a take, especially in a QB hungry league now where getting them on a rookie deal is a massive advantage.
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He’s a gamble. And not a great one, IMO. I’d argue load up on a different position of need or trade down, take one of the myriad mid-level talents from less heralded programs, hope for the best, and see what happens next year.

I’ll either be right, or wrong. Nobody’s paying me to make fans happy.
 




GopherWeatherGuy said:
That wasn't one of his stronger games and yet he was 17/27 for 221 YDS 3 TDs 0 INTs and they beat Alabama in the CFP.

If you watch better breakdowns rather than just highlights, and see the reads he makes, how he escapes pressure, some of the tough throws he makes, he definitely looks like a top QB prospect especially doing it all at only 20 years old.

Here's a good example

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At least a few of the big gainers and TDs looked like coverage mixups. Hey, he took advantage. The game also went to the extra innings. They were fortunate to escape with the W but their defense did its job.

Looks like low number of passes versus Ohio State as well. He just never jumped off the screen like say, Drake Maye. He looks like a franchise guy. And will probably be a total bust. 🤷‍♂️
 

upnorthkid said:
the issue i have with these kinds of videos is they have NO IDEA what the read sequence is or how they were coached (ie the reads are not all based on what the WR is running, but can be based on what the D sets up in and the key is on a player on defense rather than anything your offensive guy is doing). This one is also clearly biased (claiming he throws something off shoulder when he clearly just didn't even see the guy) and the truth absolutely lies somewhere in the middle on a guy who has less of a body of work than most. But I trust in KOC if he thinks he can get him there and if you fail in this offense which is exceedingly QB friendly, well I think that's the tale of the tape of your nfl career.
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They may not have an idea of what the read sequence is, but a lot of college offenses are 1 read by the QB where the coaches take the guesswork out of it pre-snap, and those QB's put up big numbers in those offenses. They also end up being busts in the NFL.

The example you brought up is the one I didn't like either, but my takeaway from that video and another I posted below, is that JJ is running a NFL style offense and shows the ability to go through his progressions and make the right throw. This is despite being the youngest QB prospect in the draft. There aren't many college QBs that do this, let alone ones that are as good at it as JJ is.

I think it's also obvious from the videos that he has a very good arm, especially on the intermediate throws, which are the most important.

 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
They may not have an idea of what the read sequence is, but a lot of college offenses are 1 read by the QB where the coaches take the guesswork out of it pre-snap, and those QB's put up big numbers in those offenses. They also end up being busts in the NFL.

The example you brought up is the one I didn't like either, but my takeaway from that video and another I posted below, is that JJ is running a NFL style offense and shows the ability to go through his progressions and make the right throw. This is despite being the youngest QB prospect in the draft. There aren't many college QBs that do this, let alone ones that are as good at it as JJ is.

I think it's also obvious from the videos that he has a very good arm, especially on the intermediate throws, which are the most important.

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again i'm not here to argue i'm better at talent evaluation but almost all of his evals by professionals have said his arm strength modest and his ball placement is suspect in spite of his completion percentage as well as that he's a line drive thrower in addition to needing to get through progressions faster.

i think he will be super coachable however and that is extremely important for KOC. We'll see how it works out but he's 20 and obviously has a ton of room. Just don't know if he'll get there but that's the fun in drafting any QB other than the rare air type of guys you get at 1. I'd say he's probably a 2nd round talent at this point, but he's got much more ceiling than say a Nix or Penix versus them being more a finished product at this point which is what pushed him up so far (and that's staying away from some of the other biases that I think also drove him up draft boards based on "looking the part")
 




in the end, New England either refused to trade out of #3 - or set a price that was just too high to pay.

that means the Vikings were left with either McCarthy or Penix. and when Atlanta went psycho and took Penix at #8, that means the Vikings were left with McCarthy.

It was McCarthy, Nix, or no QB. and now it's up to O'Connell and his coaching staff to make the best of the situation. assuming Darnold stays healthy and plays at some type of reasonable level, McCarthy is not going to see the field for a while. He's got time to work with the coaches and develop.

but my bottom line - if O'Connell absolutely did not want McCarthy, the Vikings would not have taken McCarthy. but they did take McCarthy - which means that O'Connell signed off on the pick.
and it's up to him to make the pick work.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
JJs windup actually looks Tebow-like to me. That’s the first thing that jumped out when I say him. Any QB coming from a strong surrounding cast and an eternity to throw and scramble has to be viewed a little more harshly. Throw in the cheating and I just don’t know how he’s going to perform on a more level playing field. I could absolutely be wrong about him. Most of it ultimately is mental and maybe he’s elite in that category. More talented players have failed.

Look, I HATE UMichigan and everything about their team and fans. I love the state. Michigan is actually pretty awesome. But, for my hatred alone I won’t be sad if he fails. Yep, it’s irrational and even a little sad but hey, that’s sports fans in a nutshell.
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College Tebow was awesome to watch!
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
He slide all the way to #8🤫🥳
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Just joshing yah - you’ve likely forgotten more football than I’ll ever know
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howeda7 said:
@Ogee Ogilthorpe is about to become a Falcons fan...
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Had a big golf tournament the last several days, haven't been able to digest all of this.

Holy shit, Atlanta drafting Penix at #8 has to be one of the most galactically stupid draft moves in years and YEARS, and really, it has very little to do with Penix himself.

The Super Bowl winning Atlanta front office of Rich McKay, Terry Fontenot and Ryan Pace have proven to be just completely and utterly incompetent. Just a few highlights over the recent years...

- Won 21 games in the last 3 years, never making the playoffs.

- In each of the 3 previous years, despite heavy needs on Defense and OL, they drafted skill players in the 1st round of Drake London, Kyle Pitts and Bijan Robinson, and now Penix

- When Lamar Jackson was on the market, they did not just NOT pursue Jackson, they felt the need to put out a press release saying they were not interested in Lamar Jackson. WTF?

- Filling their HC opening this offseason, they didn't just NOT hire Bill Belichick for their opening, they felt the need to proudly and publicly proclaim that BB wasn't even in their top 3 with their search. WTF?

- Don't forget, Pace was in Chicago and was responsible for drafting both MVP Mitch Trubisky and Justin Fields.

You KNEW you had the #8 pick, you really liked, or loved, Michael Penix, why in the flying f'k did you guarantee almost $100M to Kirk Cousins and commit to him for the next several years? Cousins says he wants to play for a while, and you gave him a No-Trade clause.

Penix is NOT a young QB, he's played a shitload of games, very experienced player. This is not someone you draft with the plan to sit him for 2-3 years behind Cousins. And let's not forget that despite the Achilles injury (which I don't think will affect him at all this year), Cousins has been a REMARKABLY durable QB in his career.

This was the bonehead move of all bonehead moves. Rich McKay (who the Falcons have tried to tell people is not running the show) and Terry Fontenot are just complete f'ng morons.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
Had a big golf tournament the last several days, haven't been able to digest all of this.

Holy shit, Atlanta drafting Penix at #8 has to be one of the most galactically stupid draft moves in years and YEARS, and really, it has very little to do with Penix himself.

The Super Bowl winning Atlanta front office of Rich McKay, Terry Fontenot and Ryan Pace have proven to be just completely and utterly incompetent. Just a few highlights over the recent years...

- Won 21 games in the last 3 years, never making the playoffs.

- In each of the 3 previous years, despite heavy needs on Defense and OL, they drafted skill players in the 1st round of Drake London, Kyle Pitts and Bijan Robinson, and now Penix

- When Lamar Jackson was on the market, they did not just NOT pursue Jackson, they felt the need to put out a press release saying they were not interested in Lamar Jackson. WTF?

- Filling their HC opening this offseason, they didn't just NOT hire Bill Belichick for their opening, they felt the need to proudly and publicly proclaim that BB wasn't even in their top 3 with their search. WTF?

- Don't forget, Pace was in Chicago and was responsible for drafting both MVP Mitch Trubisky and Justin Fields.

You KNEW you had the #8 pick, you really liked, or loved, Michael Penix, why in the flying f'k did you guarantee almost $100M to Kirk Cousins and commit to him for the next several years? Cousins says he wants to play for a while, and you gave him a No-Trade clause.

Penix is NOT a young QB, he's played a shitload of games, very experienced player. This is not someone you draft with the plan to sit him for 2-3 years behind Cousins. And let's not forget that despite the Achilles injury (which I don't think will affect him at all this year), Cousins has been a REMARKABLY durable QB in his career.

This was the bonehead move of all bonehead moves. Rich McKay (who the Falcons have tried to tell people is not running the show) and Terry Fontenot are just complete f'ng morons.
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Well said!

You are one of the most knowledgeable NFL posters on the board. What do you think of the JJ pick and his chances of becoming a "franchise QB?"
 

howeda7 said:
He might end up a bust, but he's not Tebow. And hey even Tebow won a playoff game.
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You’re right, Tebow was a much better runner… Ha ha J/k I’m obviously being an intentional dic* right now. Then again, when he gets excited in games and throws his arm back straight during his windup there is a little resemblance… Ultimately, who cares if he’s a pretty thrower if he can get the ball out accurately and on time.

It’s going to be interesting how he fares but he’s probably going to a good landing spot. Nobody and *especially* a hater like me knows how he’s going to perform with the bullets flying.
 


jamiche said:
Well said!

You are one of the most knowledgeable NFL posters on the board. What do you think of the JJ pick and his chances of becoming a "franchise QB?"
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I love everything I have heard about JJM when it comes to between the ears, intangibles, leadership, competitiveness, connecting with his teammates, football IQ, et al. He has flaws, everyone of the top QB's in this draft did, but workable when you consider the entire package. Most importantly, he was fantastic in critical situations, 3rd downs, late in games, etc.

I might have had SOME doubts about getting him at #3 or #4 overall but at #10? Just a great pick, and once again, I LOVE the discipline that this front office has shown when it comes to some of these moves. Continue to be more impressed as we go along. They have a plan, and they have stuck to it, it would appear, and not deviated.

Heard a really good discussion a few days ago regarding "connectivity" with NFL QB's, the importance of connecting with teammates, etc and how important it is. You could argue that recent picks like Zach Wilson and Mac Jones failed just as much because of their inability to connect with teammates and just be well-liked in the locker room as much as it was their ability to play the position.

You could argue that the Vikings got players they highly, HIGHLY coveted at picks #10 and #17 that many mockers and draft experts thought would go as high as #3/#4 and #6-8. I think they knocked it out of the park.
 


kg21 said:
If we play McCarthy this year, I wish we better in the middle of the line.

We never seem to fix it. And yes, Mlps, I know you have them as good. Stay out of it.
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Our interior OL and DL are going to be a real problem barring some late additions. Hopefully, Ingram continues to improve and Tillery can finally play up to his potential.
 

when they drafted Rouse I wondered if they planned to move him inside, but the initial word is they see him as a swing tackle. the brain trust is putting a lot of faith on Brandel to come through at guard.
 


Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
I love everything I have heard about JJM when it comes to between the ears, intangibles, leadership, competitiveness, connecting with his teammates, football IQ, et al. He has flaws, everyone of the top QB's in this draft did, but workable when you consider the entire package. Most importantly, he was fantastic in critical situations, 3rd downs, late in games, etc.

I might have had SOME doubts about getting him at #3 or #4 overall but at #10? Just a great pick, and once again, I LOVE the discipline that this front office has shown when it comes to some of these moves. Continue to be more impressed as we go along. They have a plan, and they have stuck to it, it would appear, and not deviated.

Heard a really good discussion a few days ago regarding "connectivity" with NFL QB's, the importance of connecting with teammates, etc and how important it is. You could argue that recent picks like Zach Wilson and Mac Jones failed just as much because of their inability to connect with teammates and just be well-liked in the locker room as much as it was their ability to play the position.

You could argue that the Vikings got players they highly, HIGHLY coveted at picks #10 and #17 that many mockers and draft experts thought would go as high as #3/#4 and #6-8. I think they knocked it out of the park.
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JJ was the cat's meow before the draft. Now there's a ton of doubters post draft. Weird.

I am stoked about the draft. I love the method of being aggressive and getting blue chippers. Mid round picks are a dime a dozen
 

just read an article in The Athletic breaking down the mechanics for the top 7 QB's. the evaluators basically agreed that McCarthy's biggest issue is touch. they say he tends to throw everything at one speed - hard - and will need to learn to adjust his mechanics in order to vary the speed on his passes - but they think that's fixable. the other issue was his footwork when he's throwing to the left side of the field. they don't think he sets his feet well when he's throwing to the left and that causes some balls to miss their target.

But - overall McCarthy's grades were comparable with everyone except Caleb Williams, who was 1st by a considerable margin. on a scale of 1 to 5, Williams got a 4.9 - Spencer Rattler was 4.0 - Bo Nix 3.9 - Daniels 3.8 - Penix 3.8 - McCarthy and Maye at 3.75. the 'speed of throws' score for McCarthy was 3.1, which pulled down his overall average.

and in a different article, where the QB's were ranked by how favorable their situation is - scheme, coaching, offensive tools, O-Line, etc - McCarthy ranked 2nd overall. consensus is that he is in a very good situation working with O'Connell in the Vikings' system.
 

“I want to be the best teammate and quarterback I could possibly be, and do whatever is asked of me. The only stat I care about is W’s.”

- JJ McCarthy on becoming a Viking
 

short ornery norwegian said:
when they drafted Rouse I wondered if they planned to move him inside, but the initial word is they see him as a swing tackle. the brain trust is putting a lot of faith on Brandel to come through at guard.
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They seem to like Brandel.

Who is behind Brandel and ingraham, though.

We are so thin at guard.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
Had a big golf tournament the last several days, haven't been able to digest all of this.

Holy shit, Atlanta drafting Penix at #8 has to be one of the most galactically stupid draft moves in years and YEARS, and really, it has very little to do with Penix himself.

The Super Bowl winning Atlanta front office of Rich McKay, Terry Fontenot and Ryan Pace have proven to be just completely and utterly incompetent. Just a few highlights over the recent years...

- Won 21 games in the last 3 years, never making the playoffs.

- In each of the 3 previous years, despite heavy needs on Defense and OL, they drafted skill players in the 1st round of Drake London, Kyle Pitts and Bijan Robinson, and now Penix

- When Lamar Jackson was on the market, they did not just NOT pursue Jackson, they felt the need to put out a press release saying they were not interested in Lamar Jackson. WTF?

- Filling their HC opening this offseason, they didn't just NOT hire Bill Belichick for their opening, they felt the need to proudly and publicly proclaim that BB wasn't even in their top 3 with their search. WTF?

- Don't forget, Pace was in Chicago and was responsible for drafting both MVP Mitch Trubisky and Justin Fields.

You KNEW you had the #8 pick, you really liked, or loved, Michael Penix, why in the flying f'k did you guarantee almost $100M to Kirk Cousins and commit to him for the next several years? Cousins says he wants to play for a while, and you gave him a No-Trade clause.

Penix is NOT a young QB, he's played a shitload of games, very experienced player. This is not someone you draft with the plan to sit him for 2-3 years behind Cousins. And let's not forget that despite the Achilles injury (which I don't think will affect him at all this year), Cousins has been a REMARKABLY durable QB in his career.

This was the bonehead move of all bonehead moves. Rich McKay (who the Falcons have tried to tell people is not running the show) and Terry Fontenot are just complete f'ng morons.
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This shitshow in Atlanta just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

Now it comes out that Chicago tried to move up from #9 to #8 to take Rome Odunze. Chicago GM Poles called Atlanta GM Terry Fontenot about moving up and Fontenot said No thanks.

WTF... I don't know who comes off sounding more stupid here; Poles for wanting to move up 1 spot for the 3rd WR in the top 10, or Fontenot and the Falcons for saying NO. Poles seems clueless in Chicago and there's no description for what has happened in Atlanta the last couple years.
 

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