What improvements are needed for the Vikings to use TCF Bank Stadium?

[RailBaronYarr]

You don't choose a stadium site to justify an already built mass transit system.

The exception would be if another mass transit system is needed at new stadium site.

Really? You don't choose to build a facility that requires a large number of people getting there based on the existence of public transport where other alternatives would require ADDITIONAL investment from the public to have the same access? Disagree. Target chooses to build stores near high traffic areas with good access (and may work with a city for slight changes in road structure to get traffic in easier), they don't build in the middle of nowhere and demand a road be built to them from a freeway because they thought it was a better location.

 

[GoAUpher]

What it comes down to is potential.

Build it on the FM or Basilica sites and it's pretty easy to predict the kind of impact it has. Add in the fact that both sites leverage existing infrastructure, will allow the stadium to host more non-Vikings events, and spread the economic impact out to a wider group of businesses and business owners (i.e. constituents and campaign contributors) and you can see why the Minneapolis options have a lot of clout.

For AH, there is still a lot of potential for building on the tax base because of the size of the proposed development. HOWEVER, a lot of the development is pretty speculative. Wilf says he'll put up all sorts of hotels and such but in the end there is no guarantee that the market ever supports the big plans he is advertising. Plus, as the landowner up there he stands to profit the most. Not a situation primed for passage.

I prefer a downtown stadium but in the end I don't care. I think you can easily argue for either based economic factors so long as you acknowledge that the numbers for AH are much more speculative. In the end, what will matter is the which has a better political path to passage and right now I don't see that working out for AH.

 

[GoAUpher]

You don't choose a stadium site to justify an already built mass transit system.

The exception would be if another mass transit system is needed at new stadium site.

Yea...maybe you don't care about this but legislators (at least the one's with half a brain and any sense of urban planning) do.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Arden Hills is not even a mile north of 694 yet everyone thinks its part of Canada. It's equal distance to St. Paul and Minneapolis. It's just off of 35W which can get you a pretty good straight shot to the airport for those important out of town ticket holders. And I guess I personally do not want to build a stadium nor pick a location based on what an out of town fan wants. A sports reporter or out of town fan will find a way to get to the stadium the same way I do when I go to Northwestern, Michigan, or an Ohio State football game.

Urban Planning also involves filling in areas of the city that are neglected or polluted and finding uses that are well suited for the site.

Also, all road improvements to the Arden Hills site are slated for construction or repair in the next 10 years REGARDLESS if a stadium is built in this location. And I don't want to build an LRT out to this site unless the residential population will use it because like I said an NFL stadium will do NOTHING for ridership numbers.

So is there NOTHING else that can go on a site that is polluted besides a stadium? Businesses like 3M, Target, etc couldn't put a facility there with large parking lots without the state/county having to fork over $400M to do so?

You're right on it being pointless to build an LRT station out there. That's yet another drawback to the site - not only does it not have existing mass transit options, it would be pointless to build it even if a stadium was built there. The Farmer's Market site has it all conveniently built already, and a planned transit mode from the SW metro leading right to it. You may think that because many NFL stadiums have giant parking lots for tailgating with a hotel or 2 and some restaurants within a 1 mile radius that it's the right way to go. But look at the trend of urbanization and how it will help keep Minneapolis as a viable big city that attracts young people, concerts, shows, big sporting events, and more if done properly. Arden Hills is not that.

 

[GoGophers2005]

So is there NOTHING else that can go on a site that is polluted besides a stadium? Businesses like 3M, Target, etc couldn't put a facility there with large parking lots without the state/county having to fork over $400M to do so?

You're right on it being pointless to build an LRT station out there. That's yet another drawback to the site - not only does it not have existing mass transit options, it would be pointless to build it even if a stadium was built there. The Farmer's Market site has it all conveniently built already, and a planned transit mode from the SW metro leading right to it. You may think that because many NFL stadiums have giant parking lots for tailgating with a hotel or 2 and some restaurants within a 1 mile radius that it's the right way to go. But look at the trend of urbanization and how it will help keep Minneapolis as a viable big city that attracts young people, concerts, shows, big sporting events, and more if done properly. Arden Hills is not that.

How do all those Cowboy fans make it out to Cowboyville without a whiff of any public transit? The place is a destination to 'America's Team' and will go and see it anyway they can. That is exactly what Arden Hills will become to Minnesota.

I sure hope people aren't against Arden Hills because they haven't been north of 694 or east of Minneapolis in 30 years. Nothing worse than someone from Eden Prairie thinking that Blaine is part of Wisconsin.

I'm not against the Linden Hills or Farmers Market site....I just think AH is better. If the 2 Minneapolis sites can show me that PERMANENT tailgating options will exist for the life of the stadium. As someone mentioned that parking under I94 is an option....I'd like to see it expanded and designed into where the city currently has some of its park and highway materials stored (between Bryn Mar and the freeway).

 

[GoGophers2005]

Really? You don't choose to build a facility that requires a large number of people getting there based on the existence of public transport where other alternatives would require ADDITIONAL investment from the public to have the same access? Disagree. Target chooses to build stores near high traffic areas with good access (and may work with a city for slight changes in road structure to get traffic in easier), they don't build in the middle of nowhere and demand a road be built to them from a freeway because they thought it was a better location.

Big difference between a Target Store and an NFL stadium. In order for a Target store to be successful it needs the foot traffic so it demands to be near places people work and live. An NFL stadium is a destination all in its own, sort of like Mount Rushmore. If faces weren't on a mountain no one would be around. It creates its own foot traffic. There are 10 Target stores in the Twin Cities....just one Viking stadium.

 

[Go4Broke]

Big difference between a Target Store and an NFL stadium. In order for a Target store to be successful it needs the foot traffic so it demands to be near places people work and live. An NFL stadium is a destination all in its own, sort of like Mount Rushmore. If faces weren't on a mountain no one would be around. It creates its own foot traffic. There are 10 Target stores in the Twin Cities....just one Viking stadium.

You keep missing the point. This facility is NOT going to be an NFL Stadium. The Vikings will be the major tenant but the new ENTERTAINMENT FACILITY is going to operate 365 days per year with numerous events that are much more suited for a downtown location where tailgating will not be feasible, and not be missed. Get used to it, and get over it.

 

[GoGophers2005]

You keep missing the point. This facility is NOT going to be an NFL Stadium. The Vikings will be the major tenant but the new ENTERTAINMENT FACILITY is going to operate 365 days per year with numerous events that are much more suited for a downtown location where tailgating will not be feasible and not be missed. Get used to it, and get over it.

I don't think I am missing any point. I think you've been brainwashed. No way in a city the size of Minneapolis do they need another 'entertainment facility' nor anymore convention space. It's tapped out. 8 years ago that argument could possibly be intertained, but not after Target Field, TCF Bank and the Mpls Convention Center additions.

As I said a million times now.....there is nothing that will fill this stadium to capacity or even half capacity outside of a Vikings game (12 times a year). I think we can find better uses for the land in a dense area such as Mpls than this building type will bring.

 

[GoAUpher]

As I said a million times now.....there is nothing that will fill this stadium to capacity or even half capacity outside of a Vikings game (12 times a year). I think we can find better uses for the land in a dense area such as Mpls than this building type will bring.

As others have already noted, the land being identified isn't ideal for the kind of dense infill build that you're alluding to. No one is going to build residential/condo dev there. This is actually a great use of that land. The city business leaders and planners all envision that area as being a transportation and sports hub (as evidenced by the 2025 plan and the strong opposition to the Dome East plan from everyone who is not the mayor or city council president).

And while they should never be a major factor in any decision since they wouldn't happen yearly, there are events that would be held at a new downtown stadium that wouldn't be held (ever, or at least, as often) at AH. NCAA Basketball Regionals/Final Fours being the most glaring.

AH strikes me as an acceptable proposal that is doomed b/c of 3 things: a lot of the non-Viking development is speculative thus making the economic impact more speculative, Wilf stands to benefit way too much for many folks to accept regardless of whether the extra development ever happens, and the funding hinges on taxes levied in the economically/demographically weaker of the 2 metro counties.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

I don't think I am missing any point. I think you've been brainwashed. No way in a city the size of Minneapolis do they need another 'entertainment facility' nor anymore convention space. It's tapped out. 8 years ago that argument could possibly be intertained, but not after Target Field, TCF Bank and the Mpls Convention Center additions.

As I said a million times now.....there is nothing that will fill this stadium to capacity or even half capacity outside of a Vikings game (12 times a year). I think we can find better uses for the land in a dense area such as Mpls than this building type will bring.

Then by your logic there would be nothing that fills a Vikings stadium more than 12 (12? are we thinking pre-season games fill it and they're making playoffs every year? ha) up in Arden Hills, either. So why would hotels, restaurants, shopping, etc want to build there???

As GoAUpher states, events like the following list would be held in a downtown location but rarely (if ever) at AH due to lack of major surrounding development and entertainment:
- NCAA BB regionals (maybe every other year? sure seems like Indy hosts them all the time)
- NCAA BB Final Fours (Ford Field held it recently, LucasOil also hosts it frequently
- B10 football championships,
- An MLS franchise (again, see my post where I referenced Seattle and their stadium
- High school football tournaments
- Big concerts (think the size of U2, Kenny Chesney, etc)
- Monster Truck Jams (yes, they're amazingly hickish yet fill up the dome quite well)
- etc

I'm also glad you're so sure that the addition of 2 outdoor stadiums and Mpls Convention Center expansion can handle the capacity of INDOOR events. The reality is that Minneapolis should continue to build and expand to grow the capability to host more and more events like this, highlighting our excellent downtown full of entertainment options, bars, and free of crime areas (compared to most cities).

I'm not for spending $400M for Wilf to have the best location for HIM to develop and make money for HIMSELF. I'm for the idea of keeping an NFL franchise in MN due to the awareness/taxes/etc it brings in from their own events as well as all the public/private events hosted in a big stadium they would build. That, to me, is worth the 3-400M investment and Minneapolis is the best location for all-around usage.

 

[GoAUpher]

- High school football tournaments
- Big concerts (think the size of U2, Kenny Chesney, etc)
- Monster Truck Jams (yes, they're amazingly hickish yet fill up the dome quite well)

Obviously we're arguing similar points and agree on some stuff, but I do fail to see why these particular items wouldn't happen out in AH. None of them has any particular tie to a downtown area versus a suburban area. The big concerts might actually consider the abundance of tailgating space to be a draw depending on the artist. And the HS tourney will likely choose to play indoors which can happen at the Dome, though all future City planning for the Dome site shows it as being replaced by non-stadium development at some point in the future. At that point (if not earlier) I'd expect the HS tourney to move to the AH location.

As for a B1G title game, AH would definitely assure that it didn't come to town but it's probably a long shot to expect it even with a downtown location given the fact that the B1G prefers a central location to assure better attendance.

 

[GoGophers2005]

Then by your logic there would be nothing that fills a Vikings stadium more than 12 (12? are we thinking pre-season games fill it and they're making playoffs every year? ha) up in Arden Hills, either. So why would hotels, restaurants, shopping, etc want to build there???

As GoAUpher states, events like the following list would be held in a downtown location but rarely (if ever) at AH due to lack of major surrounding development and entertainment:
- NCAA BB regionals (maybe every other year? sure seems like Indy hosts them all the time)
- NCAA BB Final Fours (Ford Field held it recently, LucasOil also hosts it frequently
- B10 football championships,
- An MLS franchise (again, see my post where I referenced Seattle and their stadium
- High school football tournaments
- Big concerts (think the size of U2, Kenny Chesney, etc)
- Monster Truck Jams (yes, they're amazingly hickish yet fill up the dome quite well)
- etc

I'm also glad you're so sure that the addition of 2 outdoor stadiums and Mpls Convention Center expansion can handle the capacity of INDOOR events. The reality is that Minneapolis should continue to build and expand to grow the capability to host more and more events like this, highlighting our excellent downtown full of entertainment options, bars, and free of crime areas (compared to most cities).

I'm not for spending $400M for Wilf to have the best location for HIM to develop and make money for HIMSELF. I'm for the idea of keeping an NFL franchise in MN due to the awareness/taxes/etc it brings in from their own events as well as all the public/private events hosted in a big stadium they would build. That, to me, is worth the 3-400M investment and Minneapolis is the best location for all-around usage.

I'll call a truce. If it's built in AH's I'll supply the booze for the entire tailgate and you will do likewise if its in Minneapolis. Otherwise meet me in Lot 88 next year and we can continue our discussion because with our legislature I'm sure the debate will still be going on! At least we agree that a Vikings stadium should be built, right? That's the important thing.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Obviously we're arguing similar points and agree on some stuff, but I do fail to see why these particular items wouldn't happen out in AH. None of them has any particular tie to a downtown area versus a suburban area. The big concerts might actually consider the abundance of tailgating space to be a draw depending on the artist. And the HS tourney will likely choose to play indoors which can happen at the Dome, though all future City planning for the Dome site shows it as being replaced by non-stadium development at some point in the future. At that point (if not earlier) I'd expect the HS tourney to move to the AH location.

As for a B1G title game, AH would definitely assure that it didn't come to town but it's probably a long shot to expect it even with a downtown location given the fact that the B1G prefers a central location to assure better attendance.

I think it's a tough point to make that concerts would prefer venues out in suburbia over downtown, but I also see your point that the opposite point is tough to make. There are many smaller concert venues in town (Medina, First Ave, etc) - some in the city some out and all draw different but equally popular bands/shows. My point is I think it's more likely to have a better draw if it's centrally located and there are already plenty of bars/places to eat downtown. Also, the site calls for 6,600 surface spaces directly adjacent with an area directly west that could support a similar number - I doubt ~10k surface spots wouldn't be enough to promote a tailgate scene for a concert.

I think regardless of where the stadium is built, there should be a consensus that there is no Dome in the future. There is not enough revenue stream to keep the lights on and justify its existence if there's another stadium, be it in AH, Shakopee, or the FM site - meaning any event that COULD be there would most likely be hosted in the new stadium (if location isn't an issue, obviously).

you may be right on the B1G title game, but I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility. I also didn't put in a SuperBowl on my list because even if it did happen, it would be a one and done deal at best and not a sustainable source of major income every 5-10 years (just my opinion).

 

[RailBaronYarr]

I'll call a truce. If it's built in AH's I'll supply the booze for the entire tailgate and you will do likewise if its in Minneapolis. Otherwise meet me in Lot 88 next year and we can continue our discussion because with our legislature I'm sure the debate will still be going on! At least we agree that a Vikings stadium should be built, right? That's the important thing.

yes - I don't disagree that you make some good points, I'm just on the other side of the fence.

To be honest, I think there should be a stadium, and I'm not even a big Vikings or even NFL fan. I just think the cities/state can't afford to lose a team in the most high profile pro league and all the benefits that come with it being here and having a stadium. I'm not a fan of soccer but I think having an MLS team would be great for MN since I recognize many people love it and would go watch it.

 

[zambam]

yes - I don't disagree that you make some good points, I'm just on the other side of the fence.

To be honest, I think there should be a stadium, and I'm not even a big Vikings or even NFL fan. I just think the cities/state can't afford to lose a team in the most high profile pro league and all the benefits that come with it being here and having a stadium. I'm not a fan of soccer but I think having an MLS team would be great for MN since I recognize many people love it and would go watch it.

Not sure who mentioned this, but a Vikings stadium wouldn't bring an MLS team. MLS now requires the stadiums to be designed for soccer.
EDIT:
Found the post

- No matter where the stadium is built, it will not affect MLS. They now require MLS specific stadiums.

 

[GoAUpher]

I think it's a tough point to make that concerts would prefer venues out in suburbia over downtown, but I also see your point that the opposite point is tough to make.

I think the point is that any group with enough drawing power to sell out a 65,000+ seat stadium is going to do so regardless of location. In other words, it's a moot point.

I think regardless of where the stadium is built, there should be a consensus that there is no Dome in the future. There is not enough revenue stream to keep the lights on and justify its existence if there's another stadium, be it in AH, Shakopee, or the FM site - meaning any event that COULD be there would most likely be hosted in the new stadium (if location isn't an issue, obviously).

No argument here (or anywhere else from anyone else I think). The Dome is dead if a new stadium gets built, not matter where that stadium is.

you may be right on the B1G title game, but I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility. I also didn't put in a SuperBowl on my list because even if it did happen, it would be a one and done deal at best and not a sustainable source of major income every 5-10 years (just my opinion).

Anything is possible, but the B1G's reaction to other venues in a more central location (Ford Field, Soldier Field) have made it clear that in the near term a title game in MN is not a very likely outcome no matter the details of a new stadium. And yea, any Super Bowl is definitely a one and done.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Not sure who mentioned this, but a Vikings stadium wouldn't bring an MLS team. MLS now requires the stadiums to be designed for soccer.

That's... surprising. Look at the trouble cities have had in getting funding for a venue to host the most popular sport in America (by a long shot). I recognize a smaller stadium (seating-wise) built for soccer may be cheaper but the investment may not be worth it for many areas/owners. Is a football field/stadium really that different than a soccer pitch?

 

[GoAUpher]

That's... surprising. Look at the trouble cities have had in getting funding for a venue to host the most popular sport in America (by a long shot). I recognize a smaller stadium (seating-wise) built for soccer may be cheaper but the investment may not be worth it for many areas/owners. Is a football field/stadium really that different than a soccer pitch?

I think MLS is pretty happy with their current size and is looking to improve the quality of the franchises instead of focusing only on quantity.

 

[zambam]

That's... surprising. Look at the trouble cities have had in getting funding for a venue to host the most popular sport in America (by a long shot). I recognize a smaller stadium (seating-wise) built for soccer may be cheaper but the investment may not be worth it for many areas/owners. Is a football field/stadium really that different than a soccer pitch?

Part of it might be that soccer is meant to be played outside, indoor soccer has some different dimensions to the field and has a different feel to it? I don't actually know, I don't really watch the MLS.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

I think MLS is pretty happy with their current size and is looking to improve the quality of the franchises instead of focusing only on quantity.

I guess there's nothing wrong with this mentality. If the MLS ever wants to be seen as a serious league that can stand on its own it probably doesn't want its teams playing in other sports venues - makes it feel less permanent and tacky, as well as never "their own" (all reasons I was ecstatic to have TCF built).

Part of it might be that soccer is meant to be played outside, indoor soccer has some different dimensions to the field and has a different feel to it? I don't actually know, I don't really watch the MLS.

I would say soccer is meant to be played outdoor just as much as football is. I'm not sure on the schedule for the MLS but it seems like they play nearly year-round which would be a pretty good reason to have them inside if they ever made a franchise in MN (I love outdoor football/baseball/etc but a sport that plays in December - February is asking for trouble if you play outside).

 

[GoAUpher]

Part of it might be that soccer is meant to be played outside, indoor soccer has some different dimensions to the field and has a different feel to it? I don't actually know, I don't really watch the MLS.

There is no problem with playing in an NFL venue. DC, New England, and Seattle all do it.

Also, do you have a link for that requirement? I've heard the same thing mentioned, but MLS also just added a FC in Vancouver in 2011 who does not play in a soccer specific stadium (though their stadium is dual purpose with soccer in mind...they can close off the upper deck in such a way that the stadium becomes soccer specific...see photo).

 

[GoGophers2005]

There is no problem with playing in an NFL venue. DC, New England, and Seattle all do it.

Also, do you have a link for that requirement? I've heard the same thing mentioned, but MLS also just added a FC in Vancouver in 2011 who does not play in a soccer specific stadium (though their stadium is dual purpose with soccer in mind...they can close off the upper deck in such a way that the stadium becomes soccer specific...see photo).

That is awesome...is that the same project in Vancouver that use to be a dome very similar to what the Metrodome looks like?

 

[GoGophers2005]

That is awesome....is that the same stadium in Vancouver that originally looked like the Metrodome?

 

[zambam]

There is no problem with playing in an NFL venue. DC, New England, and Seattle all do it.

Also, do you have a link for that requirement? I've heard the same thing mentioned, but MLS also just added a FC in Vancouver in 2011 who does not play in a soccer specific stadium (though their stadium is dual purpose with soccer in mind...they can close off the upper deck in such a way that the stadium becomes soccer specific...see photo).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...itecaps.jpg/800px-BC_Place_2011_Whitecaps.jpg

The indoor thing was just a guess. I am just basing what I said on what another poster said, assuming he knows what he's talking about.

 

[GoAUpher]

That is awesome....is that the same stadium in Vancouver that originally looked like the Metrodome?

Yup. BC Place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Place

Before:

After:

 

[imthewalrus]

Let's see: The vikings really suck. They would have to make a LOT of improvements before they would ever be allowed to play ANYWHERE. The vikings need a new owner...a new coach...a new running back...a new quarterback...and a new state to reside in. May the vikings crash and burn...The ONLY thing that needs to be changed about TCF BANK STADIUM would be to create a BAN on ever allowing the stinking nfl to play a game on the U of M Campus ever again! Let the nfl in Minnesota die and go away to LA or Mexico City or the Fargo Dome...

; 0 )

 

[zambam]

Let's see: The vikings really suck. They would have to make a LOT of improvements before they would ever be allowed to play ANYWHERE. The vikings need a new owner...a new coach...a new running back...a new quarterback...and a new state to reside in. May the vikings crash and burn...The ONLY thing that needs to be changed about TCF BANK STADIUM would be to create a BAN on ever allowing the stinking nfl to play a game on the U of M Campus ever again! Let the nfl in Minnesota die and go away to LA or Mexico City or the Fargo Dome...

; 0 )

Saying the Vikings need a new RB is probably the stupidest thing you've ever said. ACL injuries are not career enders like they used to be.

 

[station19]

Let's see: The vikings really suck. They would have to make a LOT of improvements before they would ever be allowed to play ANYWHERE. The vikings need a new owner...a new coach...a new running back...a new quarterback...and a new state to reside in. May the vikings crash and burn...The ONLY thing that needs to be changed about TCF BANK STADIUM would be to create a BAN on ever allowing the stinking nfl to play a game on the U of M Campus ever again! Let the nfl in Minnesota die and go away to LA or Mexico City or the Fargo Dome...

; 0 )

Is it safe to say you are not an NFL fan?

 

[station19]

Saying the Vikings need a new RB is probably the stupidest thing you've ever said. ACL injuries are not career enders like they used to be.

AP is the best 2-down back in the NFL.

 

[jesse221]

You must never have heard of Ray Rice!!!

Ray Rice my friend is the best RB in football!!!

AP is the best 2-down back in the NFL.