What happened? What needs to improve next season?

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I think we need to see who our leaders on the field are next year.

I only know a little about American Football but some of the kids at our Rugby club go on to play at a high level. When they reach a certain standard it is their ability to communicate effectively to one another that makes the difference - small adjustments, anticipation and tactical awareness, motivation and dedication in training and on the field. Get some of these leaders alongside athletes (it is great if a kid is both - but the best athletes sometimes have too much of an ego) and you have a winning formula.

From what I can pick up (assumption - no insider knowledge) we have had some good leadership on defense this year. Aaron Hill for his work ethic, Hageman as a talisman figure and Brock Vereen IMHO appears superb in all leadership aspects. I am interested to see who will replace them - Damien Wilson, one of the safeties?

Offensively, I honestly think Nelson has the potential to be/may already be a good leader (see Indiana game) but needs to improve his mechanics/pass accuracy. I just hope, whoever it is, we get a clear QB starter in the spring. In terms of other players on offense, I think the offensive lineman seem to have a good blend and a comrardary amongst them and a few strong leaders; perhaps Maxx already has the respect of the team and, even though he will only be a Sophomore, can become a Jason Witten type for us.
 

Great discussions here guys.

The O-Line definitely need to give the QB more time. Two seconds can make a difference between a busted play and a successful pass or run. Everyone on that offense need to be able to block when called upon. On one of the earlier posts, someone alluded to the fact that Kill did not play certain guys because either they are unwilling to block or cannot block effectively.


I'd like to see more creative play calling like the spread formation, bubble screens, no-huddle, etc... and executed well. The game plan needs to morph according to the strengths & weaknesses of each opponent. Sometimes a high scoring offense is a good defense, then TOP may not be the game plan.

We need an exciting brand of Gopher Football to keep TCF Field rocking and make opponents fear playing there.

And yes, I too think that it will be good for Nelson or Leidner or both to go to a QB camp at this stage of their development. Anything to increase confidence in their ability is a good thing.
 

I hate to disagree with what many of you are saying here, but I completely disagree with the idea of Leidner and Nelson going to a "QB Camp". QB Camps are about teaching fundamentals, technique and throwing motion. Watching both of these QBs throw this year, they do not have bad "throwing technique". They need work within the system that they are in. They aren't at the stage yet where they can anticipate the open receiver or the throw that they are going to have to make. Go back and watch some of the games. It seems that they are "surprised" or caught off-guard when a receiver popped open and they had to quickly get the ball out. Now I think them working with pros that work out in this area would be a great help for them to learn some of the finer points, but QB camps aren't designed for the finer points. They are designed for mass teaching.

This takes time, and I hate to say it, but many good athletes never "get" that part of being a QB. Part of that is on the coaches in their offensive design and play-calling. As an offensive coach, you must dictate to the defense how you want them to align through alignments, formations, and shifts. That's what makes offenses like Auburn, Oregon, etc.. so successful. The QBs should come to the line and KNOW how the defense is going to align to a particular formation. To be a great QB, you must understand defensive alignments and principles.

I know that this sounds a little pessimistic, but it's going to take time with these young guys. And yes, they are still young at the QB position in college. I believe that the Gopher coaching staff can get the job done and get these young guys on the right page. There will be improvement on the Gopher team again next season. Will that guarantee a better W-L record next season? Only time will tell.
 

Gopherwatcher said:
I hate to disagree with what many of you are saying here, but I completely disagree with the idea of Leidner and Nelson going to a "QB Camp". QB Camps are about teaching fundamentals, technique and throwing motion. Watching both of these QBs throw this year, they do not have bad "throwing technique". They need work within the system that they are in. They aren't at the stage yet where they can anticipate the open receiver or the throw that they are going to have to make. Go back and watch some of the games. It seems that they are "surprised" or caught off-guard when a receiver popped open and they had to quickly get the ball out. Now I think them working with pros that work out in this area would be a great help for them to learn some of the finer points, but QB camps aren't designed for the finer points. They are designed for mass teaching.

This takes time, and I hate to say it, but many good athletes never "get" that part of being a QB. Part of that is on the coaches in their offensive design and play-calling. As an offensive coach, you must dictate to the defense how you want them to align through alignments, formations, and shifts. That's what makes offenses like Auburn, Oregon, etc.. so successful. The QBs should come to the line and KNOW how the defense is going to align to a particular formation. To be a great QB, you must understand defensive alignments and principles.

I know that this sounds a little pessimistic, but it's going to take time with these young guys. And yes, they are still young at the QB position in college. I believe that the Gopher coaching staff can get the job done and get these young guys on the right page. There will be improvement on the Gopher team again next season. Will that guarantee a better W-L record next season? Only time will tell.
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I agree with what you're saying here. A lot of this could be due to a lack of relationship between the QBs and the inexperienced receivers. How many times did Nelson throw the ball to Drew or Dahnovan while Engel was healthy? Not many.
 



Coach Mason shared an interesting observation from coach Joe Tiller

MZBKA said:
We have to be able to pass and catch better. Nelson's first 3 passes of the Wisconsin game hit the receivers in the hands, and the receivers dropped the ball. In the bowl game, Nelson couldn't have hit a receiver if his arms were 9 feet long.

IMO, the bigger problem throughout the season has been our young receivers' inexperience rather than Nelson's throwing. After Engel went down, nobody else besides Maxx could catch the ball.
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Mason had a conversation about quarterback play back when he was coach and I am paraphrasing from what I can remember from the radio show he had with Justin Gaard on KFAN on one of there final college football weekly shows.
He shared a story about Joe Tiller and Purdue back when Drew Brees was the quarterback for the Boilermakers. This was all in relationship to whether or not he thought the spread offense and all of that passing would work in the Big 10 conference. OF course Tiller was a strong believer that his offense would work in the Big 10 conference.
Coach Tiller shared with coach Mason that the whole time Drew Brees was at Purdue he did not see him missfire or miss any completions in practice while at Purdue not one missed throw in practice in drills or practices where it was one on one. Especially in warm ups or one on one drills with the receivers.
My sumation from that interview is that what he was indicating is that you cannot teach a quarterback to have superb accuracy or pinpoint accuracy like that. Either a quarterback is accurate or he is not, and consistency is something that some guys just have.
The little I did see of Nelson as a Freshman he seemed like he was more accurate as a thrower then he seems to be this year. Not sure if Injury's or lack of work with the receivers has something to do with that this year but he seemed to be throwing off his back foot a lot or not setting his feet a lot this year. He did have chemistry with Barker that seemed to be a sure thing from the Purdue game as a Freshman.(Not suggesting they bring back Barker). This seemed like a pretty poinent observation by coach Mason, maybe he had even witnessed some Gopher practices and was providing an observation about that. Not sure if he was or not.
Either they have it or they don't. You can work with their throwing motions and they can practice it but if there is a lot of inaccuracy in practice or drills chances are your not going to get the quarterback to improve that much. I have not seen enough of Nelson or Leidner in practice to summarize what they do but from what I have seen in games so far, they have missed throws to receivers even in warmups or pre-game, so chances are what we see is what we get from those two next year. I think that is why even some media members even a Zach Johnson at Gopher Illustrated have suggested the Gophers seek out a Juco college quarterback who comes from a background of running the spread and having completed a lot of passes.


Sid keeps suggesting the coaches are High on Strevlar in practice for a reason. I'm not sure turning to a redshirt freshman is ideal but if he is better than why not.
In the end we do need a quarterback to emerge as the starter next year, there are a lot of other things like consistent blocking from the O-line and more of a pass rush from the D-line but quarterback is definately a concern going forward in to next year.
 

hungan1 said:
Great discussions here guys.

The O-Line definitely need to give the QB more time. Two seconds can make a difference between a busted play and a successful pass or run. Everyone on that offense need to be able to block when called upon. On one of the earlier posts, someone alluded to the fact that Kill did not play certain guys because either they are unwilling to block or cannot block effectively.
.
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You answered your own question in your original post and virtually nobody responded to it. It's easy to look at the QB play and say that's the problem, and at times it has not been good, but at the end of the day, it all starts up front.

The last three games, when the offense was struggling the most (after more than a month of solid production on offense), this was the composition of the O-Line:

> Campion: 2-year starter with solid experience, but still a Sophomore
> Olson/Lauer: an oft-injured Senior and a RS Freshman
> Epping: the stalwart of the line, great experience, great production
> F. Bush: a RS Sophomore, making his first career starts, with almost no previous experience in the games leading up to his starting
> T Olson: a Junior playing some of the first football of his career at the Center position

In summary, for most of the last 3 games, they were rolling with 2 Jr's, 2 SO, and one Freshman, with two of those getting their first career starts at those respective positions in their careers. I heard during the Syracuse game that the O-Line for the Orange had started every game this season together. In a one-possession game, that's the difference right there.

Nelson and Leidner have to get better, considerably better, for this team to take the next step. But make no mistake about it, with a healthy starting O-Line of Bak, Christenson, Epping, Campion, and Olson/Lauer, this team beats Syracuse and makes one heckuva run at beating Michigan State.
 

Ogee, you put the foil on there. That's an excellent post and something that I believe that the coaches will be able to improve next season. Hopefully, the offensive line can stay healthy for a full season for the first time in years.
 

John Galt said:
What needs to improve in 2014?


2. Another step forward by the O-line. I'd love to see Pirsig or Hayes overtake a senior and become a starter because they are so good we can't leave them off the field.
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Short of injury or a warp in the space-time continuum, there is little to no chance that Hayes replaces Bak or Epping in 2014. Review the MSU game film to understand why.

Bak and Epping are the best o-linemen on the team grading out as your #1 and #2 respectively in 2013. Both received AC consideration and Bak became the first gopher guard since Setterstrom to receive it from conference coaches.

Anything is possible and Isaac will have his day but at this point in his development he is not in the same class as Bak and Epping and likely won't be until after they've left and are playing in the NFL.

Best Regards.
 



Gopherwatcher said:
I hate to disagree with what many of you are saying here, but I completely disagree with the idea of Leidner and Nelson going to a "QB Camp". QB Camps are about teaching fundamentals, technique and throwing motion. Watching both of these QBs throw this year, they do not have bad "throwing technique". They need work within the system that they are in. They aren't at the stage yet where they can anticipate the open receiver or the throw that they are going to have to make. Go back and watch some of the games. It seems that they are "surprised" or caught off-guard when a receiver popped open and they had to quickly get the ball out. Now I think them working with pros that work out in this area would be a great help for them to learn some of the finer points, but QB camps aren't designed for the finer points. They are designed for mass teaching.

This takes time, and I hate to say it, but many good athletes never "get" that part of being a QB. Part of that is on the coaches in their offensive design and play-calling. As an offensive coach, you must dictate to the defense how you want them to align through alignments, formations, and shifts. That's what makes offenses like Auburn, Oregon, etc.. so successful. The QBs should come to the line and KNOW how the defense is going to align to a particular formation. To be a great QB, you must understand defensive alignments and principles.

I know that this sounds a little pessimistic, but it's going to take time with these young guys. And yes, they are still young at the QB position in college. I believe that the Gopher coaching staff can get the job done and get these young guys on the right page. There will be improvement on the Gopher team again next season. Will that guarantee a better W-L record next season? Only time will tell.
Click to expand...

Again, I'm really enjoying your input. My question (and I've raised it elsewhere) is whether or not there is something inherent in this particular offense that limits the ability to successfully check down. It seems (and this isn't an always) that if the pattern to the "hot" receiver isn't open, Nelson and Leidner (and Jordan Lynch at NIU) just tuck it and run without going through any real progression. I don't know if it's because the designed QB run plays such a large role in this offense or if something else is in play. I realize it can't be that simple and although I've watched a ton of football over the years and understand most of it, there is certainly nuance that I miss with regularity. I'm surprised that very few quick WR slants are part of this offense.
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Mason had a conversation about quarterback play back when he was coach and I am paraphrasing from what I can remember from the radio show he had with Justin Gaard on KFAN on one of there final college football weekly shows.
He shared a story about Joe Tiller and Purdue back when Drew Brees was the quarterback for the Boilermakers. This was all in relationship to whether or not he thought the spread offense and all of that passing would work in the Big 10 conference. OF course Tiller was a strong believer that his offense would work in the Big 10 conference.
Coach Tiller shared with coach Mason that the whole time Drew Brees was at Purdue he did not see him missfire or miss any completions in practice while at Purdue not one missed throw in practice in drills or practices where it was one on one. Especially in warm ups or one on one drills with the receivers.
My sumation from that interview is that what he was indicating is that you cannot teach a quarterback to have superb accuracy or pinpoint accuracy like that. Either a quarterback is accurate or he is not, and consistency is something that some guys just have.
The little I did see of Nelson as a Freshman he seemed like he was more accurate as a thrower then he seems to be this year. Not sure if Injury's or lack of work with the receivers has something to do with that this year but he seemed to be throwing off his back foot a lot or not setting his feet a lot this year. He did have chemistry with Barker that seemed to be a sure thing from the Purdue game as a Freshman.(Not suggesting they bring back Barker). This seemed like a pretty poinent observation by coach Mason, maybe he had even witnessed some Gopher practices and was providing an observation about that. Not sure if he was or not.
Either they have it or they don't. You can work with their throwing motions and they can practice it but if there is a lot of inaccuracy in practice or drills chances are your not going to get the quarterback to improve that much. I have not seen enough of Nelson or Leidner in practice to summarize what they do but from what I have seen in games so far, they have missed throws to receivers even in warmups or pre-game, so chances are what we see is what we get from those two next year. I think that is why even some media members even a Zach Johnson at Gopher Illustrated have suggested the Gophers seek out a Juco college quarterback who comes from a background of running the spread and having completed a lot of passes.


Sid keeps suggesting the coaches are High on Strevlar in practice for a reason. I'm not sure turning to a redshirt freshman is ideal but if he is better than why not.
In the end we do need a quarterback to emerge as the starter next year, there are a lot of other things like consistent blocking from the O-line and more of a pass rush from the D-line but quarterback is definately a concern going forward in to next year.
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I don't think anyone here is asking for Drew Brees' level of accuracy (he supposedly put one in a garbage can from 40 yards away, which I think is apocryphal) but is only looking for an ability to hit guys who are open. This is a running offense, but we're going to see 8 in the box consistently if we don't develop a passing game.
 

50PoundHead said:
I don't think anyone here is asking for Drew Brees' level of accuracy (he supposedly put one in a garbage can from 40 yards away, which I think is apocryphal) but is only looking for an ability to hit guys who are open. This is a running offense, but we're going to see 8 in the box consistently if we don't develop a passing game.
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Agree with this. This offense doesn't require a lethal drop-back QB and that's why I think Nelson (and others) will be just fine. I think Nelson just lost a little bit of confidence down the stretch, whether it was getting dinged up at Indiana, losing Engel, the difficulty in the conditions against Wisky, or playing back-to-back defenses of the caliber of Wisky and MSU.

Nelson will be more than adequate next year, especially playing behind an O-Line that comes closer to resembling a Big Ten offensive line than anything the Gophers have fielded in 9-10+ years, not to mention a stable of young receivers who got some great experience and PT this year.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
You answered your own question in your original post and virtually nobody responded to it. ...But make no mistake about it, with a healthy starting O-Line of Bak, Christenson, Epping, Campion, and Olson/Lauer, this team beats Syracuse and makes one heckuva run at beating Michigan State.
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It is no coincidence that RG and RT production both suffered after losing Bak. Without Bak's leadership and ability line play on the right side broke down. This was not lost on the coaches.

That's why, on the day the team flew down to Houston, before dawn broke, Bak was taken to GN and run through drills to prep him for game day in hopes that, come Monday, he would be cleared to start and play.

I'm not saying the bowl games outcome turned on the loss of Jon and Bak, but their combined absence was more impactful to that outcome than was even Dereks.

Best Regards.
 



50PoundHead said:
Again, I'm really enjoying your input. My question (and I've raised it elsewhere) is whether or not there is something inherent in this particular offense that limits the ability to successfully check down. It seems (and this isn't an always) that if the pattern to the "hot" receiver isn't open, Nelson and Leidner (and Jordan Lynch at NIU) just tuck it and run without going through any real progression. I don't know if it's because the designed QB run plays such a large role in this offense or if something else is in play. I realize it can't be that simple and although I've watched a ton of football over the years and understand most of it, there is certainly nuance that I miss with regularity. I'm surprised that very few quick WR slants are part of this offense.
Click to expand...

It all comes down to how many receivers are sent out on any particular play. I got the impression watching the offense this season that most passing plays involved 2-3 receivers at most. If 4 receivers were sent out on a play, then it was usually 2 to each side and the QB was reading only one side of the coverage. I don't believe that there are that many "check-downs" in this offense. It's a power running game and vertical passing game offense.

I don't feel that there is any single reason why they didn't come down to that 2nd or 3rd receiver. Partly was definitely because of protection issues, especially in B1G play. Another reason may be because of these young QBs still being in that HS mentality. Let's face it - Nelson and Leidner were usually the best athletes on the field in high school and if their first options weren't open, they could tuck it and gain big yards. That changes in college. Heck, it even changes in the NFL. Look at Christian Ponder as a prime example. One read and tuck guy in college and was good at that. Can't do it in the NFL.

Thanks for the compliments again 50.
 

How close are Bak and Christensen to being back?

elohrehpog said:
It is no coincidence that RG and RT production both suffered after losing Bak. Without Bak's leadership and ability line play on the right side broke down. This was not lost on the coaches.

That's why, on the day the team flew down to Houston, before dawn broke, Bak was taken to GN and run through drills to prep him for game day in hopes that, come Monday, he would be cleared to start and play.

I'm not saying the bowl games outcome turned on the loss of Jon and Bak, but their combined absence was more impactful to that outcome than was even Dereks.

Best Regards.
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Bak is concussion related hopefully it isn't to the level of the guys they lost Gjere and Michaels, at least it doesn't sound that way. He really was coming on after the Michigan game and even had a really good first half against Michigan.
Christensen after he broke his leg you could see the communication in the line lost something and the right side definately struggled to end the season, he was really playing at a high level in the Indiana game and was a big reason the offense was starting to click for the QB's that game. Christensen really seems to be the leader of the O line and the guy that the other guys feed off of. Would have been nice to have him against Wisconsin.

Who will be the left tackle is Lauer going to be the guy next year, he struggled in the bowl game but he is a redshirt freshman so surprising he was able to crack the two deeps so quickly.
 

My point wasn't that we need Brees like accuracy, mostly it was to indicate that coaches much wiser than I indicate it is hard to teach a quarterback accuracy. Obviously Brees is a savant and one of the elite in the NFL so his type of talent is gifted or he was born with it. I really thought Nelson was coming in to his own in the Indiana game, then he tweaked the hamstring and was never really the same guy after that. The cheap shot in the bowl game likely did in his shoulder. That was a dirty shot by Syracuse.
Competition seems to be open at the QB spot next year. We need more wide receivers that can spread the field and make people miss, that is why they were so reliant on the two tight end sets.
 

When will the Gophers have a QB that can win a pass competition over an opponent QB? Certainly not the current top 2 on the chart.
 

One of the radio guys I was listening to the other day posed this question; "The qb's in Kill's system take a lot of hits from carrying the ball as much as they do. How much does this affect their passing?"
 

I hope we have three new starters on the OL next year like another poster said here because the starter from this year gets beaten out. Campion for sure really struggled against better teams. Anyone saying our QB situation shouldn't cause angst over the off season is delusional. I don't think many teams in D1 has worse QB play than us this year. Don't have an answer other to pray for vast improvement. Frankly, I worry about the coaching our QBs and OL are getting; particularly the QB. Our QB coach should be feeling some heat after the regression in our QB play.
 

Here's the thing tho...

The QBs right now are probably pretty much in line with the stage of development of the other groups on offense right now, in Year 3. Look at the bowl game;

- the entire O-Line returns next year (sans Eddie O), and they might actually start a line that resembles the maturity and experience of a typical BT line
- all the receivers that played in the bowl game return and the FR that played meaningful minutes late in the year. Those young receivers will be considerably better next year as well

In short, it's not like the entire offense, EXCEPT the QBs, is one big rolling well-oiled machine. They were looking pretty damn god before Bak, Christenson, and Engel went out tho.

With pretty much everyone returning next year, count me as one that thinks this offense will take a MAJOR step forward and will be very, very difficult to stop.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Here's the thing tho...

The QBs right now are probably pretty much in line with the stage of development of the other groups on offense right now, in Year 3. Look at the bowl game;

- the entire O-Line returns next year (sans Eddie O), and they might actually start a line that resembles the maturity and experience of a typical BT line
- all the receivers that played in the bowl game return and the FR that played meaningful minutes late in the year. Those young receivers will be considerably better next year as well

In short, it's not like the entire offense, EXCEPT the QBs, is one big rolling well-oiled machine. They were looking pretty damn god before Bak, Christenson, and Engel went out tho.

With pretty much everyone returning next year, count me as one that thinks this offense will take a MAJOR step forward and will be very, very difficult to stop.
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Agree with a lot of that but what we saw from our QBs compared to nearly every other team in America just isn't "normal". Their stunning inefficiency was off the charts for most of the year.
 

station19 said:
One of the radio guys I was listening to the other day posed this question; "The qb's in Kill's system take a lot of hits from carrying the ball as much as they do. How much does this affect their passing?"
Click to expand...

I would say very little. It's not like they run it 25 times every game. They averaged less than 15 per game and that is including sacks and plays that were designed pass plays. 10-12 per game between the both of them is not a ton.

It's not that much different than teams that pass 40 times a game and their QB's get hit a ton while throwing in the pocket. At least when you are running the ball you can deliver a blow as well.
 

Gophers had gone 12 quarters without scoring a touchdown. Thank goodness Leidner put 17 points on the board against the Orange.
 

The defense needs to step up the scoring.
 

#1: We need more playmakers on offense. Williams is a stud and Jones and Wolitarsky were really impressive for true freshmen, but our inability to turn a 15 yard play into a 50 yard play is tough. They also don't win a lot of "jump balls". I'm not sure where that playmaker will come from. Maybe Harbison grows up and turns things around. Maybe Jones develops into an All Big 10 type of WR or maybe a younger guy emerges (Carter, Edwards, Borchardt). Our QB play wasn't very good, but those guys could use a little help.
- This would also help with our OL pass blocking. If you can legitimately beat a team deep, they are less likely to press, stack the box and bring exotic blitzes.

#2: QB play can hopefully improve. Our QBs weren't very good most of the season. I am pretty confident in Nelson and Leidner. They are young and they were playing with really young and inexperienced WRs. That's an impossible task.

Lastly, this board is strange in the bold statements made about players who are young. I've read countless times how Nelson will never be good and certain players not being very good. It's weird in that we have been fans through Hageman (was definitely written off early in his career), Michael Carter and even Troy Stoudemire. To a lesser extent guys like Ryan Collado and Brock Vereen made HUGE improvements as their careers went on.
 

1. As far as the bowl game: Show up. You had a good season, but had no right to come out and play like you could just show up and win.
2. Figure out what you want out of the passing game. You have an offensive identity in running the ball. If what we saw this year is what you want, then fine. We didn't exactly call plays with the mindset of 50/50 pass/run. It was more "pound, pound, pound, then Play Action/Big Play
3. Decide on a QB, even if it means that 1 transfers again. I prefer Nelson if you are truly serious about a passing game, but Bowl performances like we saw have to end. Time to start lighting a fire here and make one be "The Man".

In my mind, there are 3 easy fixes.
 

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