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sunnyday2 said:
Certainly it has turned out that Tubby is not a great recruiter. Like his predecessors--Clem Haskins, anyway--he does not really respect Minnesota high school ball. He recruits the obvious ones like Royce and Rodney; he only got Mbakwe on the rebound. But then he goes out on the national market and gets guards who are no better than Wolters or Woodside if they are even as good.

The secret to winning at Minnesota is to close the borders--not for the Tyus Joneses (and similarly, the Tayler Hills), who as has been pointed out are getting offers from the Dukes and North Carolinas and Kansases of the world, let 'em go. But shut the borders for all the other kids who don't have those kinds of offers, which makes them no different than Maverick Ahanmisi and most of the other kids that Tubby recruits.

Then after you've got a roster that is a Minnesota all-star team (minus 1 or 2 4 and 5 star players), I admit that you will need to have the best %^*(& game-day coach around. I mean, Bill Musselman coulda won with Wolters and Muscala, don't kid yourselves. I saw him beat the Celtics of Bird and McHale with Scott Roth. And he's gotta ask those kids to run through a brick wall.

I know, I know. But this my friends is the one sure foundation. This is a game plan you can execute if you want to, and once you have a little success with it, then a couple of kids might come from somewhere else who can put you over the top. But relying on out-of-town talent as a foundation? No. That's what we've got today and it ain't working.
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This can't be serious ...
 

Absolutely, Iowa State is another good example. It appears they made a perfect hire with The Mayor. When ISU is rollin' there aren't many better atmospheres than Hilton Coliseum.
 

sunnyday2 said:
You answered your own question. The fact that they forfeited it due to cheating is exactly a consequence of the bigger strategy of relying on the national market. It didn't work without cheating.
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OK - what about (for example) the 2003-04 season when almost the entire rotation was MN natives and the team went 12-18 (3-13)?
 

Hard not to hear the racist undertones when "national recruiting" is blamed for everything wrong with the program
 

From the Barn said:
Hard not to hear the racist undertones when "national recruiting" is blamed for everything wrong with the program
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Easy to hear it if that is what you are looking to hear. Advocating in state vs. national recruiting is not a racial issue.
 


From the Barn said:
Hard not to hear the racist undertones when "national recruiting" is blamed for everything wrong with the program
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Wow you are serious? I got zero feel for that in this thread and have sensed nothing of the sorts from other threads. If you are looking for waves it so happens you are the one making them with posts like this.
 


Go back and look at the posts from when Tubby was hired. Very few people expected the Gophers to be a powerhouse. A few did but most expected the occasional tourney run to the sweet 16 and somewhat regular tourney appearances. Anyone expecting much more than that needs to seriously take a look at things because it just isn't feasible. Most people realized where MN had been in the past and where they were at the time so to expect more than an occasional run just isn't realistic.
 




CentralGopher said:
Go back and look at the posts from when Tubby was hired. Very few people expected the Gophers to be a powerhouse. A few did but most expected the occasional tourney run to the sweet 16 and somewhat regular tourney appearances. Anyone expecting much more than that needs to seriously take a look at things because it just isn't feasible. Most people realized where MN had been in the past and where they were at the time so to expect more than an occasional run just isn't realistic.
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Yet WI can make the tourney nearly every year.......MN - no way!!!
 

I think Hoiberg has done a good job at ISU but at the same time he took a risk and allowed 3 tranfers to his team all who were kicked off their previous team. It just so happened all 3 panned out to be amazing players, therefore getting his name on the map.

People keep saying if we hire the right coach we will be as good as anyone. Can someone name to me who the right coach is? Should we try a young rising coach at a mid major? Oh yeah Monson was that guy. He failed miserably and it was not because of sanctions. He has no post season bans whatsoever and he only like 5 scholarships over a 4 year period and he coached for 6 years. Should we try to hire a big name guy? Tubby has made huge strides from where Monson was and this year and 2 years ago he was one possibly 2 big wins away from being a top 20 team in the nation. My whole point to this thread is, although Tubby hasnt made us a power house he surely has got us winning more than we have been in the last 10+ years.

If you are 18 year old recruit are you thinking about fortune 500 companies and how good our business program is? NO! you are thinking abotu playing on National TV, girls in tight clothing (warm weather). This fortune 500 bull crap is for us rubes who never made it and are glad we can have a good job to work at.

I give Bo Ryan huge props. He wins and people know it. Kids being recruited now have seen and heard of wisconsin winning in the last 10+ years. Kids have never heard of MN. At least wisconsin wins in both Football and Basketball. They get dual recognition.

Kansas is in the middle of nowwhere but guess what...it is Kansas. Everyone knows of it, everyone has heard of their basketball program. I could win 20+ games there and recruit as their head coach. MN doesnt have that.
 

CentralGopher said:
Go back and look at the posts from when Tubby was hired. Very few people expected the Gophers to be a powerhouse. A few did but most expected the occasional tourney run to the sweet 16 and somewhat regular tourney appearances. Anyone expecting much more than that needs to seriously take a look at things because it just isn't feasible. Most people realized where MN had been in the past and where they were at the time so to expect more than an occasional run just isn't realistic.
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Now that you mention it, I remember most folks saying that if he could just go about .426 in league games, that ought to be good enough and certainly justify his high salary. With this retrospection, I'm suddenly feeling good about things.

Ridiculous. Where do these posters come from?
 

bga1 said:
If Tubby had been "all in" on this job working his fanny off recruiting, promoting it and winning (as he could have with his name brand)- we would already have shovels in the ground on the facilities. It's tougher to get the funds when the town lacks the excitement. It's been a half hearted effort by Tubby- the potential was there.
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He expected to eventually get a practice facility when he got here because you know thats what most Big Ten schools have. Nebraska has a practice facility. Northwestern is building one. Every school has one or is building one except for the Gophers and Penn State. So you're saying Nebraska and Northwestern have an "all in" approach?
 



SO pretty much if MN had a practice facility they would be way better off, right?
 

gopherbadgerman said:
SO pretty much if MN had a practice facility they would be way better off, right?
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Correct. I thought this was already established?

How do you tell a recruit, "well I know MSU has iPads at every locker, personal speakers in every shower, pool tables and a massage table and practice courts you can use whenever you want. But let me tell you what, here at Minnesota, you can buy yourself a Lifetime Fitness membership. And those are some nice clubs. Sure it costs you money and is about 20 minutes from campus and all aren't open 24/7, but you will love it. Don't worry! IPads are overrated anyways and you don't need to work on your game ever, it'll be fine. Trust me."

Good luck ...
 

bga1 said:
If Tubby had been "all in" on this job working his fanny off recruiting, promoting it and winning (as he could have with his name brand)- we would already have shovels in the ground on the facilities. It's tougher to get the funds when the town lacks the excitement. It's been a half hearted effort by Tubby- the potential was there.
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Tubby's had us set up for success in past seasons, but then suspensions, injuries, and transfers have killed them. In our 2009-10 season, we still managed 9-9 in conference with arguably our two best players suspended for the season, and we had four conference losses that were lost either by one point or in overtime, and having those guys on the floor like they were intended to be, we probably would have competed for, or even won the Big Ten title that year. Whenever things have started really looking up, something ALWAYS goes wrong. This is the first year since probably 2008-09 that we've been relatively free of injuries and off-court incidents, and that's not counting Mbakwe's DUI over the summer, or Wally's hand injury which kept him out of low-pressure non-conference games that could have helped him develop into a more valuable contributor at this point.

goldengophers said:
This thread gives me hope, I'm glad there is a base willing to challenge the negative fans content with helping to keep the program down.
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Not wanting Tubby fired on the spot does not mean I want to see the Gophers finish in the middle to the bottom of the Big Ten for eternity.

jamiche said:
If we hire the right coach it will turn pretty quickly.
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This is probably true. Wisconsin is not a historically great basketball program. For a 20+ year stretch from about 1974 to 1996, they did not manage to finish 5th or higher in the Big Ten. Bennett got them a couple of top half finishes and made the tournament a few times, Bo Ryan took over after three straight tournament appearances and the rest is history.

scher215 said:
This can't be serious ...
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Agreed, I think a little too much importance is placed on in-state recruiting. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of programs that thrive despite (or perhaps, in some cases, because of) the fact that 70 or 80 percent of their roster is from out of state. We get all angry when Tubby takes a guy like Mav, but there is currently a thread asking if we've missed out on the next big thing by not taking an unrated recruit with no offers from the 6 power conferences. If he was from anywhere else, no one would want him, but because he's from Minnesota, it's okay, and even encouraged, to offer him one of our precious few (in comparison to football) basketball scholarships. Andre and Austin Hollins are from out of state and they're some of our best players. We should not be taking lower quality recruits just because they are from Minnesota.

From the Barn said:
Hard not to hear the racist undertones when "national recruiting" is blamed for everything wrong with the program
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I find myself agreeing with you on a lot of your takes, but racism never even crossed my mind while reading this thread.
 


sunnyday2 said:
Certainly it has turned out that Tubby is not a great recruiter.
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Like scher215 said, your whole post can't be serious. But just in case it is...

Tubby has done a pretty good job of recruiting if you ask me. If you just look at the classes from 2008 (his first true class at MN) through 2011 (too early to tell what 2012 and 2013 classes will do), Tubby signed Colton Iverson, Devoe Joseph, Justin Cobbs, Trevor Mbakwe, Rodney Williams, Royce White, Austin Hollins, Andre Hollins, and Joe Coleman. That's nine good/great recruits in just four years. When it's all set and done, six of them will probably get drafted into the NBA. Prior to Royce White getting drafted last year, there were just six Gophers drafted in 17 years.

I understand that a high number transferred so I think tubby deserves some criticism for that. But if you look strictly as a recruiter, he's done a pretty dang good job.

Like his predecessors--Clem Haskins, anyway--he does not really respect Minnesota high school ball. He recruits the obvious ones like Royce and Rodney; he only got Mbakwe on the rebound. But then he goes out on the national market and gets guards who are no better than Wolters or Woodside if they are even as good.

The secret to winning at Minnesota is to close the borders--not for the Tyus Joneses (and similarly, the Tayler Hills), who as has been pointed out are getting offers from the Dukes and North Carolinas and Kansases of the world, let 'em go. But shut the borders for all the other kids who don't have those kinds of offers, which makes them no different than Maverick Ahanmisi and most of the other kids that Tubby recruits.
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I'm not sure you're understanding why guys like Ahanmisi, Armelin, and Welch were recruited. They were all brought in because of transfers. Ahanmisi and Armelin were extremely late signings. Guys like Wolters and Woodside wouldn't have been available at that time of year (summer after their senior years) so I don't think it's just that simple. Again, you can criticize Tubby for the transfers or that he maybe should have banked a scholarship or two in those situations.

Of the non Juco or late signee recruits, Oto looks like someone we could have signed someone local instead of.

I know, I know. But this my friends is the one sure foundation. This is a game plan you can execute if you want to, and once you have a little success with it, then a couple of kids might come from somewhere else who can put you over the top. But relying on out-of-town talent as a foundation? No. That's what we've got today and it ain't working.
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There's not enough top end talent year after year for our roster to be made up of mostly MN kids. Keeping the top MN kids home is always a priority, but you absolutely have to branch out and recruit nationally. The state of Indiana is stacked with HS talent, yet just two of IU's top six players are from Indiana. Where players come from has little to do with the success of a program in my opinion.
 

Ahhh it looks like 346 teams missed out on Wolters and Woodside....
 

Cayman said:
Tubby's had us set up for success in past seasons, but then suspensions, injuries, and transfers have killed them. In our 2009-10 season, we still managed 9-9 in conference with arguably our two best players suspended for the season, and we had four conference losses that were lost either by one point or in overtime, and having those guys on the floor like they were intended to be, we probably would have competed for, or even won the Big Ten title that year. Whenever things have started really looking up, something ALWAYS goes wrong. This is the first year since probably 2008-09 that we've been relatively free of injuries and off-court incidents, and that's not counting Mbakwe's DUI over the summer, or Wally's hand injury which kept him out of low-pressure non-conference games that could have helped him develop into a more valuable contributor at this point.

You are really searching if you believe that Mbakwe's summer DUI and Wally's hand injury could possibly be considered excuses for a stagnant offense and the worst 3pt defense in the B1G. Wally isn't ready for prime time and 10 minutes a game in the preseason wasn't going to change that. There are no excuses this year.
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bleedgold said:
I do not think there is anyone in MN who wont agree that Tubby Smith has not brought the Gophers to the power house we all expected but I do not think you can argue we are in a much better place now then we were 5-10 years ago. The problem is as MN fans we all think we should be able to recruit as well as and beat Michigan State, Ohio State, Michigan ect...

What exactly does MN have to sell to top notch 4-5star recruits? School runs September through May and that is the worst times to live in MN weather wise. The kids we are recruiting now were born around the same time we had our last final four run (we cheated to get there). Tell me how a kid who is not from the midwest has ever heard of MN and the gophers? Its not even like they hear about our great football program, so what are we selling them on?

How many families from the east coast, west coast or south take family trips to MN? Not many if any, so we dont even have that going for us.

We now expect our coaches to tighten the border battle for recruiting. What is the draw for Tyus, Vaugh or Travis to stay here? Stay here and enjoy the cold that you have suffered through for 18 years already or go play for a Hall of Fame coach at Duke or Kentucky or Kansas where they make the sweet 16 and are on National Television every year. It is easy for us rubes to sit here and say "oh but you can be the hometown hero, everyone will love you." Duke only has 2 kids on its roster from NC. Kansas only has 3 kids on its team from Kansas.

But now you are recruiting and you get a kid who says ok I can battle the cold...I can tough it out...so if they are going to tough it out...why chose MN? Now you go to Michigan State, or Michigan or Ohio State. Schools that offer the same weather but are known winners.

Tubby is not a life saver and without a win in the Dance this year he should be gone but what are our real expectations? We are a middle of the pack program, always will be and we have possibly the worst facilities in the BIG10. Tubby has had us ranked 20th or higher in 3 of his 6 years. How much better do you really think we can get?
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Way to strive for mediocrity.
 

jamiche said:
Cayman said:
Tubby's had us set up for success in past seasons, but then suspensions, injuries, and transfers have killed them. In our 2009-10 season, we still managed 9-9 in conference with arguably our two best players suspended for the season, and we had four conference losses that were lost either by one point or in overtime, and having those guys on the floor like they were intended to be, we probably would have competed for, or even won the Big Ten title that year. Whenever things have started really looking up, something ALWAYS goes wrong. This is the first year since probably 2008-09 that we've been relatively free of injuries and off-court incidents, and that's not counting Mbakwe's DUI over the summer, or Wally's hand injury which kept him out of low-pressure non-conference games that could have helped him develop into a more valuable contributor at this point.
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You are really searching if you believe that Mbakwe's summer DUI and Wally's hand injury could possibly be considered excuses for a stagnant offense and the worst 3pt defense in the B1G. Wally isn't ready for prime time and 10 minutes a game in the preseason wasn't going to change that. There are no excuses this year.
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I'm not blaming this year's lack of success (or at least the level of success that some of us were expecting/hoping for) on the DUI or Wally's hand, I only mentioned those because they did happen. I would agree that it would be lame to try to point those as the reason for poor performance. If Wally hadn't injured his hand, I think those non-conference games would have been a great chance for him to develop and maybe make him a more legitimate option for taking some of Oto's minutes as some have suggested this season. Probably wouldn't change the course of the season or maybe even a single game, but it would be nice to have, so I mentioned it.

My point was that this year is the first time in a long time that we haven't had some major injury or incident that negatively affected the team. I was mostly just trying to say that after three full seasons of being down at least one player at all times, and being down at least 2 for most of that time, this season was the first season since 2008-09 that we got to play a game, a single game, with a full roster, and that prior chances of having big success were never realized because of the injuries and off-court drama.
 

bleedgold said:
School runs September through May and that is the worst times to live in MN weather wise.

you get a kid who says ok I can battle the cold...I can tough it out...so if they are going to tough it out...why chose MN?

What is the draw for Tyus, Vaugh or Travis to stay here? Stay here and enjoy the cold that you have suffered through for 18 years already

How many families from the east coast, west coast or south take family trips to MN? Not many if any, so we dont even have that going for us.

The kids we are recruiting now were born around the same time we had our last final four run (we cheated to get there).

Its not even like they hear about our great football program, so what are we selling them on?

We are a middle of the pack program, always will be

Oh yeah Monson was that guy. He failed miserably and it was not because of sanctions.

If you are 18 year old recruit are you thinking about fortune 500 companies and how good our business program is? NO!

Kids have never heard of MN.

MN doesnt have that.
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You must be fun at parties. "Sweet, bleedgold showed up! Any one have a razor blade?"
 

Cayman said:
My point was that this year is the first time in a long time that we haven't had some major injury or incident that negatively affected the team. I was mostly just trying to say that after three full seasons of being down at least one player at all times, and being down at least 2 for most of that time, this season was the first season since 2008-09 that we got to play a game, a single game, with a full roster, and that prior chances of having big success were never realized because of the injuries and off-court drama.
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If you are going to talk injuries, you should then add that if it weren't for Trevor's injury last year he would not be on the team this year. How would this year's team look without Trevor?
 

station19 said:
If you are going to talk injuries, you should then add that if it weren't for Trevor's injury last year he would not be on the team this year. How would this year's team look without Trevor?
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We probably get Trent Lockett, who is currently averaging 7.5 points per game at Marquette and getting the third most minutes on the team. I think he's a shooting guard, but maybe he could spell Dre at the point sometimes? I'm guessing he wouldn't, but I don't know. Mbakwe is probably a bigger help to this team than Lockett would have been, but I don't think we would have simply been scrambling to sign a JUCO in May.
 

Cayman said:
We probably get Trent Lockett, who is currently averaging 7.5 points per game at Marquette and getting the third most minutes on the team. I think he's a shooting guard, but maybe he could spell Dre at the point sometimes? I'm guessing he wouldn't, but I don't know. Mbakwe is probably a bigger help to this team than Lockett would have been, but I don't think we would have simply been scrambling to sign a JUCO in May.
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Or maybe Chip would still be here.

Point is you don't know and this year's team would not be as good had Trevor not suffered the injury last year.
 

station19 said:
Or maybe Chip would still be here.

Point is you don't know and this year's team would not be as good had Trevor not suffered the injury last year.
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Trevor's loss might not have even been quite so bad if Mo and Colt would have been on last year's team. I think Trevor was really the leader of the team last year, and one of only two seniors, the other being Ralph. We were 2-4 in overtime games against Big Ten teams last year (two of them were in the Big Ten tournament though), and lost 4 other games by 5 points or fewer. I think Trevor's steadying presence out there with the younger guys could have made the difference in some of those games and gotten us to the tournament.
 

station19 said:
Or maybe Chip would still be here.

Point is you don't know and this year's team would not be as good had Trevor not suffered the injury last year.
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Agree no one knows but I wouls think most people would agree the team would not be nearly as good with Lockett or Chip instead of Trevor.
 

Excellent post. I'm a season ticket holder and will be until the day I die. Why is there reason to be fans of this program if we have no hope? I think the MN job is in fact a top 20 job and this program could do great things. If you are a true fan, yes you are a realist, but also you have hope and dreams for the program. Lets not give up on this program.

The facilities are behind the curve but its hard for us "rubes" to let The Barn go because there is nothing like it when its rocking. We heard the true Barn atmosphere once this year (Mich State).

We do need to get rid of Tubby but there is no reason in state recruits shouldn't stay here. Too much negativity in this city.
 


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