We find out a lot about Coyle this upcoming week.

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It's not just Claeys. If you bring Claeys back, presumably you're bringing back Johnson as OC. So get ready for more RUTM - RUTM - Throw deep on 3rd down - punt.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
It's not just Claeys. If you bring Claeys back, presumably you're bringing back Johnson as OC. So get ready for more RUTM - RUTM - Throw deep on 3rd down - punt.
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I think it's time we all admit that Limegrover and no Johnson were a little hampered by their QB.

Johnson isn't brand new to football. He has as much imagination as any of us. I wish it was as simple as "you gotta call better plays", but I guess I think he has deserved another season. We had an OK offense despite atrocious QB play. That's really no easy accomplishment.
 

I think the question that needs to be asked is, has Claeys achieved the highest level he can, or can he get this team better. If Coyle thinks that Claeys has the ability to coach the team to higher heights then he keeps him.
My opinion is this was a year to surprise and they fell flat in the 4 games they had a chance to make a statement. We lost every game we should have lost and won every game we should have won. There was nothing to get excited about in this season. I think Claeys needs to go because if we go through 2 more years of this and things don't get better and we then fire him, we are 2 years behind in the rebuilding process. My 2 cents.

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Bob_Loblaw said:
Did you watch any games this year? Our class this year, from what I've seen, has been fantastic. I don't care what it's ranked. Carter, Winfield and Martin have been super impressive. So yeah, I've never been more impressed with a group of true freshman who were getting PT in my lifetime. Can you think of any?

I am always on the side of the debate that recruiting rankings matter. Of course they do. But some of you people are obsessed with them. You are literally telling me that last year's class isn't very good because of how it as ranked and completely ignoring how they actually played.

If you watched the games, you would be excited about last year's class, regardless of the rankings.

2009 and 2010 were ranked 6th in the Big 10 and they were dreadful classes. They were ranked quite a bit better than any of Kill's classes. But that doesn't really matter though, because they were ranked better? Logical.

Why would you not think our offense would improve?
Alomst all of our offensive line is back.
Our two best offensive players (Smith and Brooks) are back
Probably our third best offensive player should be healthy (Lingen).
We lose Leidner - - I can't think you think that's a huge loss
We lose Woli - - - I don't think that is an irreplaceable loss.

We had a pretty average offense, statistically, and we bring a ton of people back. You should feel better about our offense next year than in awhile (IMO).
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I didn't say last year's class wasn't good and I mentioned in another thread I think we are setup well on defense going forward, except at DT. Our offense wasn't good this year. They were ranked right at 100 before today's game and didn't improve on that. Mitch was awful this year, but we had no one better. I'm not as excited as some about Croft or Green who were lightly recruited as QBs.

The WR talent is subpar. The offensive line was average at best, and they chose to go with JUCO's over the number of redshirt underclassmen we have. I also think that's a red flag. So yes I'm worried about the offensive talent going forward, and I don't see a lot of hope on the way.
 

FredEness said:
I think the question that needs to be asked is, has Claeys achieved the highest level he can, or can he get this team better. If Coyle thinks that Claeys has the ability to coach the team to higher heights then he keeps him.
My opinion is this was a year to surprise and they fell flat in the 4 games they had a chance to make a statement. We lost every game we should have lost and won every game we should have won. There was nothing to get excited about in this season. I think Claeys needs to go because if we go through 2 more years of this and things don't get better and we then fire him, we are 2 years behind in the rebuilding process. My 2 cents.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
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It is not easy to win all the games you are supposed to. You can't dismiss that and then complain we didn't upset anybody as an underdog. There wouldn't be betting if the favorites won all the time. Not easy to do. It's a process...Claeys is in his first full year. We have no idea how far he can take us. We got better as the season went along. Some things didn't go as planned to make it spectacular but there was definitely progress.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
I think it's time we all admit that Limegrover and no Johnson were a little hampered by their QB.

Johnson isn't brand new to football. He has as much imagination as any of us. I wish it was as simple as "you gotta call better plays", but I guess I think he has deserved another season. We had an OK offense despite atrocious QB play. That's really no easy accomplishment.
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I think the coaches have fallen into Leidner Island quicksand. This is similar to Gilligan's Island quicksand but not as funny. It's very easy to fall into a sticky, stubborn way of thinking that they can coach him up, he practices well, and by god they'll make him great. You can't be a coach without being a stubborn ass on some level. I think we all fell into the quicksand to differing levels. I Want To Believe.

What they should have been doing is beating the bushes for a JUCO, getting Croft game time, or trying to work around Streveler's strengths.
 

60's Guy said:
It is not easy to win all the games you are supposed to. You can't dismiss that and then complain we didn't upset anybody as an underdog. There wouldn't be betting if the favorites won all the time. Not easy to do. It's a process...Claeys is in his first full year. We have no idea how far he can take us. We got better as the season went along. Some things didn't go as planned to make it spectacular but there was definitely progress.
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We have no idea how low he can take us either. What if this was his high water mark? What if we'll be Rutgers bad within 3 years? If nothing else, being completely honest here, we should consider if anyone else is interested. If not, give Claeys a one year extension at 1.2 million or whatever he makes and keep his buyout at 500,000. If so, start exploring that.
 

I hope Bob-loblaw is prepared to buy ALOT of season tickets because nobody else in this state seems to be buying this.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Did you watch any games this year? Our class this year, from what I've seen, has been fantastic. I don't care what it's ranked. Carter, Winfield and Martin have been super impressive. So yeah, I've never been more impressed with a group of true freshman who were getting PT in my lifetime. Can you think of any?

I am always on the side of the debate that recruiting rankings matter. Of course they do. But some of you people are obsessed with them. You are literally telling me that last year's class isn't very good because of how it as ranked and completely ignoring how they actually played.

If you watched the games, you would be excited about last year's class, regardless of the rankings.

2009 and 2010 were ranked 6th in the Big 10 and they were dreadful classes. They were ranked quite a bit better than any of Kill's classes. But that doesn't really matter though, because they were ranked better? Logical.

Why would you not think our offense would improve?
Alomst all of our offensive line is back.
Our two best offensive players (Smith and Brooks) are back
Probably our third best offensive player should be healthy (Lingen).
We lose Leidner - - I can't think you think that's a huge loss
We lose Woli - - - I don't think that is an irreplaceable loss.

We had a pretty average offense, statistically, and we bring a ton of people back. You should feel better about our offense next year than in awhile (IMO).
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When you look at opponent-adjusted stats it is not a pretty picture.
 



FredEness said:
I think the question that needs to be asked is, has Claeys achieved the highest level he can, or can he get this team better. If Coyle thinks that Claeys has the ability to coach the team to higher heights then he keeps him.
My opinion is this was a year to surprise and they fell flat in the 4 games they had a chance to make a statement. We lost every game we should have lost and won every game we should have won. There was nothing to get excited about in this season. I think Claeys needs to go because if we go through 2 more years of this and things don't get better and we then fire him, we are 2 years behind in the rebuilding process. My 2 cents.

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Or set the program back four years or more if you hire another snake oil salesman messiah. Be careful what you wish for.

This is Claeys'/Johnson/Miller's first full year. We've got an almost intact experienced O-line, Brooks & Smith, and a cadre of young experienced defense coming back next year with Seth Green & Demry Croft battling for the starting job next year. We are a QB and one or two additional game changing players from seriously contending with upper tier B1G.

How about giving the current coaching staff a chance?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I didn't say last year's class wasn't good and I mentioned in another thread I think we are setup well on defense going forward, except at DT. Our offense wasn't good this year. They were ranked right at 100 before today's game and didn't improve on that. Mitch was awful this year, but we had no one better. I'm not as excited as some about Croft or Green who were lightly recruited as QBs.

The WR talent is subpar. The offensive line was average at best, and they chose to go with JUCO's over the number of redshirt underclassmen we have. I also think that's a red flag. So yes I'm worried about the offensive talent going forward, and I don't see a lot of hope on the way.
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You asked why I thought it was the best class that I could remember (as FR), I pointed out that they were really impressive on the field. You pointed to their rankings. I think it's safe to say that Martin and Winfield are going to be much better than their rankings (already are).

Our Offense was statistically about average in the Big 10 (4th in scoring offense).

Mitch was awful this year. It's hard to really blame a guy who as DC until the middle of last year on Mitch's lack of development.

I'm not super excited by Croft or Green yet. It really depends on what you pretend to know (not you, but recruitniks), but Green was highly recruited. My excitement about him has little to do with that. I am kind of in the "we'll see" mode with these two. I think we end up with a JuCo at QB next year (the Hawaiin kid at New Mexico JC).

Yep, our WR talent is subpar. When you're average on offense, you bring back the strengths (running game), you don't need a whole lot of development from the WRs to go from subpar, to par. Heck, if our WRs were "par", we'd be sitting pretty.

As far as the JuCo OL, yeah, it was a sign that Kill's staff didn't do a very good job with OL. Those average JuCO players helped us to an 8-4 season, could you imagine our OL without those players. . . that's a big problem. Claeys should get a pat on the back for how he recruited JuCo OL, they helped us out quite a bit this year and will more next season. When you recruit JuCo, if they contribute at a starterish level, it's a success. This was a success.

I have a feeling your expectation is quite different from mine. I don't expect us to have a really good offense next season. However, we should be able to run the ball as well, if not better than this year. We are bringing Lingen back and I'll be excited to see what Johnson and possibly Howard can bring to the table. It's not like they need to set the world on fire to get us from average to slightly better than average on offense (which probably would have meant 10 wins this season).
 

Pompous Elitist said:
When you look at opponent-adjusted stats it is not a pretty picture.
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Do you realize how far this program has had to come for fans to be griping about HOW we got to 8-4 and HOW we put up an average offense?

I understand advanced stats.

I will take 8-4 over 6-6 any day, regardless of how the advanced stats might rank the teams.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Do you realize how far this program has had to come for fans to be griping about HOW we got to 8-4 and HOW we put up an average offense?

I understand advanced stats.

I will take 8-4 over 6-6 any day, regardless of how the advanced stats might rank the teams.
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I guess I differ. I felt pretty good about the team last year as they played really well against some very good teams. I can't say I feel quite the same this year. How we play and develop as the year progresses is as important to me as wins and losses. Having a huge turnover margin built on the luck of facing 3 new QBs, some awful offenses, and some awful defenses helped the scoring stats.
 



The only stats that count in the end are wins.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
I guess I differ. I felt pretty good about the team last year as they played really well against some very good teams. I can't say I feel quite the same this year. How we play and develop as the year progresses is as important to me as wins and losses. Having a huge turnover margin built on the luck of facing 3 new QBs, some awful offenses, and some awful defenses helped the scoring stats.
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You enjoyed last year more?

We were killed at home by Nebraska ( a 6-7 Nebraska team).
We were shut out and killed at home by NWestern (a good NWestern team).
We were beaten pretty bad at home against WI (the game was over midway through the third, we scored a garbage TD to make it 10).

We weren't really blown out of any games this year. It got ugly at the very end, but we were way more in the WI game this year than last year.

Apparently, you got more out of those close losses to Iowa and Michigan than I did. They were fun and I wasn't upset, but I sure wouldn't trade them for two wins (especially considering we were blown out 3 times at home).
 

Pompous Elitist said:
For historians, yes. But digging into the numbers a little deeper can reveal some things.
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DO you realize the rabbit hole you're climbing into? You are being so blinded by these advanced stats that you're arguing you were more pumped up about a 6-6 team that was blown out 3 times at home than an 8-4 team that only lost close games (to pretty good teams).
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
DO you realize the rabbit hole you're climbing into? You are being so blinded by these advanced stats that you're arguing you were more pumped up about a 6-6 team that was blown out 3 times at home than an 8-4 team that only lost close games (to pretty good teams).
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Here's an example:

The 2013 TCU team won what, 4 games? But they were all close, tough affairs. It portended the team was on the cusp. And sure enough in 2014 they went on a tear and very nearly made it into the playoff.

By contrast scraping by the dregs of the Power 5, or beating up on teams starting backups and third stringers, didn't excite me. Even the PSU loss even though better in hindsight than we knew at the time was vs a team that was literally playing people off the three and four deeps on defense.

So no, I didn't get that special feeling this year.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Here's an example:

The 2013 TCU team won what, 4 games? But they were all close, tough affairs. It portended the team was on the cusp. And sure enough in 2014 they went on a tear and very nearly made it into the playoff.

By contrast scraping by the dregs of the Power 5, or beating up on teams starting backups and third stringers, didn't excite me. Even the PSU loss even though better in hindsight than we knew at the time was vs a team that was literally playing people off the three and four deeps on defense.

So no, I didn't get that special feeling this year.
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To use the same logic - Iowa right now is at #32 in F/+ (not counting Friday's win, which will presumably push them higher). They finished last season at #38. Do you think Iowa fans were happier this season going to the Holiday Bowl (or wherever) than they were going to the Rose Bowl last year? Wins have to count for something, or we shouldn't even bother to keep score. The teams can just play and we'll decide who was better at the end based on advanced stats.

I went to six of the seven home games this year and @Wisconsin. I can't speak for others, but I know that I'm a lot happier with heading home 5-2 in the games I personally witnessed than at 3-4 last year. I'd much rather beat poorer teams than lose to better teams. People forget that we were one of those "automatic losses" for a long, long time. I don't take any win for granted.
 

I don't understand the hate for claeys. He did a great job this season, Mitch Liedner cost us several game and the O.C. wad right there with him. Tracy earned himself an extension and I'm excited to see the recruits keep rolling in. Remember, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the line.

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gobbles03 said:
I don't understand the hate for claeys. He did a great job this season, Mitch Liedner cost us several game and the O.C. wad right there with him. Tracy earned himself an extension and I'm excited to see the recruits keep rolling in. Remember, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the line.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
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" recruits keep rolling in " Hmm......
 


Pompous Elitist said:
I think the coaches have fallen into Leidner Island quicksand. This is similar to Gilligan's Island quicksand but not as funny. It's very easy to fall into a sticky, stubborn way of thinking that they can coach him up, he practices well, and by god they'll make him great. You can't be a coach without being a stubborn ass on some level. I think we all fell into the quicksand to differing levels. I Want To Believe.

What they should have been doing is beating the bushes for a JUCO, getting Croft game time, or trying to work around Streveler's strengths.
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The problem is that so many people believe the island is sinking. When it's really just that Gilligan is using the measuring sticks to secure his lobster traps in the lagoon. Thus moving them out further and further into deeper water. Just like the current staff is doing to us by raising expectations. As they should!!! Current regime knows what they're doing. Great group coming back next year. And our QB play could not possibly be much worse.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
We are going to find nothing out about Coyle this week.

No AD in their right mind would fire Claeys after this season. Even if he didn't like him, going 8-4 backed Coyle into a corner. Claeys will be extended because it is the ONLY logical choice.

If Claeys went 6-6 or 7-5, we might. There is no chance Coyle fires an 8-4 coach. None.
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An 8-4 record with this creampuff schedule is the equivalent of 6-6 or even 5-7 any other year in the Big Ten. And the WAY we blew those games should inform Coyle's decision. They reeked of overmatched coaching, which should be clear to any sound football observer. Change is badly needed.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Here's an example:

The 2013 TCU team won what, 4 games? But they were all close, tough affairs. It portended the team was on the cusp. And sure enough in 2014 they went on a tear and very nearly made it into the playoff.

By contrast scraping by the dregs of the Power 5, or beating up on teams starting backups and third stringers, didn't excite me. Even the PSU loss even though better in hindsight than we knew at the time was vs a team that was literally playing people off the three and four deeps on defense.

So no, I didn't get that special feeling this year.
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All our losses this year were close, tough affairs. Next year = playoff talk? :clap:
 

Carlson 79 said:
An 8-4 record with this creampuff schedule is the equivalent of 6-6 or even 5-7 any other year in the Big Ten. And the WAY we blew those games should inform Coyle's decision. They reeked of overmatched coaching, which should be clear to any sound football observer. Change is badly needed.
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You act like we haven't won a conference title for like 50-years or haven't won a meaningful bowl game in years.

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If only we had better fans, we'd be unstoppable!
 

Miles Tarver said:
We will find out quite a bit about Coyle and what kind of AD he is this week.

If he lets Claeys stay he shows us he is completely ok with mediocrity. He's ok with a team that will win a handful of games each year and can have a decent year when the schedule works out like it did this year. He will show us that he is ok with below average attendance, a complete lack of buzz around the program and average to below average recruiting abilities and rankings.

If he finds his guy he wants and lets Claeys go he shows us he is serious about a winning football program. Go find a guy that can recruit, and bring some buzz back to this program. He has the facilities coming to help him in finding his guy and I hope he is all about bringing this program to the next level.

ROW THE BOAT!
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Dellusional
 

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