WCCO's Steve Thomson: "I'm starting to think Kill and assistants are overmatched"

So that must mean that Dave Doeren went to the Orange Bowl with Kill's players then.. It can't go both ways. If Doeren went to the Orange Bowl (based on your theory) two years after Kill left, then Kill actually rebuilt the program to a higher level than first perceived. This whole argument about Kill having success with Novak's players but Doeren led NIU to the Orange Bowl without anything to do with Kill is completely flawed. Which one is it? Whichever one it is, Kill rebuilt the program. Plain and Simple.

i disagree in the term "rebuilding" that was the question was it not? i dont think any coach can "rebuild" a program in 2 yrs. you have decided to get all worked up due to obvious admiration of kill.
 

There is every reason to believe Jerry Kill will get the job done given sufficient time. I see no reason to expect anything less. Saturday's game was a particularly large let-down due to the specific opponent, so fan reactions are a little more "heartfelt". I'm curious about something: In the latter part of the game repeatedly on the Jumbo-tron were shots of Damien Wilson (who had a good game) rapidly panting for breath. Of course the defense spent an inordinate amount of time on the field, but when a human body is gasping for air it will insist on getting oxygen immediately, which can only mean the player cannot hope to function at 100% capacity. Is it normal for FBS teams to not rest over-worked starters? Or to at least relieve them of their additional special teams duty for a while so they might get catch their breaths? Is that not one of the reasons the depth chart is so important? This is not in any fashion criticism, but my complete ignorance of the subject simply makes me curious. It seemed several of the players could have used a break in the second half and the backups could probably use some experience, as well. Or is it a hard-and-fast Big 10 rule that secondaries are not employed until starters get injured? Again, this is not an opinion, per se, I really don't know how these things are supposed to function and I'd just like to learn. I also thought the half-time break was used to retool, but I (again probably quite ignorantly) did not detect any obvious elements of that in the second half. Any edification provided is greatly appreciated. By the way, I do fully expect to see a different team next week. At least I fervently hope so.
I imagine this is Thomson just ripping for ripping sakes, seeing the Neighbor lost the Gophers a few years back. Frankly, I've always thought he has been overmatched.

Seriously, I don't know what to think. I think Kill's a good coach and I think Claeys is a good defensive coordinator. Not sure on Limegrover. There are days I think he wants to bring back the Flying Wedge. I have no opinion on the other guys. As long as they can recruit and teach, I'm fine with them. I trust Kill in this department.

It's true this isn't the MAC and we're simply not going to get it done with MAC-level athletes. We joke about the coveted Western Michigan offer, but it really isn't a joke and we've got to start landing guys who can run. Team speed has gotten better, but it still isn't good enough. We have to get stronger on the lines as well. I don't care how good a conditioning coach Eric Klein is, he can't automatically transform guys into supermen.

This is going to take awhile, but I think Kill can get it done and get it done right. When Brewster was fired, my first choices were Hoke and Golden. Maybe they saw better openings on the horizon in the same hiring cycle (I think this is relatively certain in Hoke's case), but I think Kill ranks solidly with the other people considered. He just needs to get some studs in here.
 

There is every reason to believe Jerry Kill will get the job done given sufficient time. I see no reason to expect anything less. Saturday's game was a particularly large let-down due to the specific opponent, so fan reactions are a little more "heartfelt". I'm curious about something: In the latter part of the game repeatedly on the Jumbo-tron were shots of Damien Wilson (who had a good game) rapidly panting for breath. Of course the defense spent an inordinate amount of time on the field, but when a human body is gasping for air it will insist on getting oxygen immediately, which can only mean the player cannot hope to function at 100% capacity. Is it normal for FBS teams to not rest over-worked starters? Or to at least relieve them of their additional special teams duty for a while so they might get catch their breaths? Is that not one of the reasons the depth chart is so important? This is not in any fashion criticism, but my complete ignorance of the subject simply makes me curious. It seemed several of the players could have used a break in the second half and the backups could probably use some experience, as well. Or is it a hard-and-fast Big 10 rule that secondaries are not employed until starters get injured? Again, this is not an opinion, per se, I really don't know how these things are supposed to function and I'd just like to learn. I also thought the half-time break was used to retool, but I (again probably quite ignorantly) did not detect any obvious elements of that in the second half. Any edification provided is greatly appreciated. By the way, I do fully expect to see a different team next week. At least I fervently hope so.

Not to be argumentative but there isn't every reason to believe Jerry Kill will get the job done, that's a statement you'd make about Urban Meyer as he took the OSU job not Jerry Kill at Minnesota. Kill may get it done but absent several coaches leaving other programs in the conference the odds are very long.
 

i disagree in the term "rebuilding" that was the question was it not? i dont think any coach can "rebuild" a program in 2 yrs. you have decided to get all worked up due to obvious admiration of kill.

I'm not all worked up. This is a forum on Gopherhole. That's fine if you think that a coach can't rebuild a program in 2 years. Do you believe a coach can do it in 3 years? 4 years? 5 years? He rebuilt the program whichever way you look at it. If a team is considered a bottom 10 program when a coach takes over and then has an undefeated conference record within three seasons, many would agree that's rebuilding a program. Why are so many gopherholers now saying Kill isn't a rebuilder because of one loss?
 

I'm not all worked up. This is a forum on Gopherhole. That's fine if you think that a coach can't rebuild a program in 2 years. Do you believe a coach can do it in 3 years? 4 years? 5 years? He rebuilt the program whichever way you look at it. If a team is considered a bottom 10 program when a coach takes over and then has an undefeated conference record within three seasons, many would agree that's rebuilding a program. Why are so many gopherholers now saying Kill isn't a rebuilder because of one loss?

They're not, but can appreciate your spin. They're saying what they've been saying all along, that Kill was certainly re-built a number of programs. Those programs though, were at lower levels and in Conferences where he didn't have to compete with teams that have a major talent edge on him. They are usually shouted down by the "he can do it here too" voices. Both have their points.

The skeptics just get louder after a loss like Saturday's. The memory of last season's feeble Offense just came flowing back after watching that effort and the excuses offered for it.
 


I'm not all worked up. This is a forum on Gopherhole. That's fine if you think that a coach can't rebuild a program in 2 years. Do you believe a coach can do it in 3 years? 4 years? 5 years? He rebuilt the program whichever way you look at it. If a team is considered a bottom 10 program when a coach takes over and then has an undefeated conference record within three seasons, many would agree that's rebuilding a program. Why are so many gopherholers now saying Kill isn't a rebuilder because of one loss?

Because we are barely better than year 1 of kill.
 

They're not, but can appreciate your spin. They're saying what they've been saying all along, that Kill was certainly re-built a number of programs. Those programs though, were at lower levels and in Conferences where he didn't have to compete with teams that have a major talent edge on him. They are usually shouted down by the "he can do it here too" voices. Both have their points.

The skeptics just get louder after a loss like Saturday's. The memory of last season's feeble Offense just came flowing back after watching that effort and the excuses offered for it.

That's because he had the best talent in the MAC. I guess Kill shouldn't get credit for the level of talent at NIU either. Like a previous poster claims, he won with Novak's players, right?

Like my previous post tried to explain, what coach in the B1G has rebuilt a program in the conference in the first 5 years besides Dantonio and Fitzgerald? Not singling you out specifically, but some posters make it sound like it's a common occurrence in the B1G to have coaches come in and turn a program around. It's not a coincidence the Gophers have been mediocre at best for a half century. It takes time and getting all worked up over one bad loss makes our fan base look pathetic in my opinion. Why should we be so expecting? Kill might fail here and we'll find out but he's coached what?? 17 conference games now? A little premature perhaps? I don't know..
 


That's because he had the best talent in the MAC. I guess Kill shouldn't get credit for the level of talent at NIU either. Like a previous poster claims, he won with Novak's players, right?

Sure he should, can't understand why he wouldn't. As for "having the best talent in the MAC" unless you're claiming that Kill is going to go out and get the "best talent in the B1G" you missed the point, but you're not really trying to make one are you?
 



Sure he should, can't understand why he wouldn't. As for "having the best talent in the MAC" unless you're claiming that Kill is going to go out and get the "best talent in the B1G" you missed the point, but you're not really trying to make one are you?

I am making a point. When Kill arrived at NIU, his talent was the worst in the conference record-wise. When he left, Kill had the best talent in the conference. That's a pretty clear point. When moving to the B1G, his talent was again arguably the worst in the conference. Is Kill improving the talent here? Of course he is. Not saying he will have the best talent in the B1G.. Never said that.. Rather you give him time and, similar to NIU, he might put the best talented roster on the field for the Gophers in quite some time.
 

I am making a point. When Kill arrived at NIU, his talent was the worst in the conference record-wise. When he left, Kill had the best talent in the conference. That's a pretty clear point. When moving to the B1G, his talent was again arguably the worst in the conference. Is Kill improving the talent here? Of course he is. Not saying he will have the best talent in the B1G.. Never said that.. Rather you give him time and, similar to NIU, he might put the best talented roster on the field for the Gophers in quite some time.
So what is it? Kill needs elite talent to be relevant or that he can "coach 'em up"?
 

I am making a point. When Kill arrived at NIU, his talent was the worst in the conference record-wise. When he left, Kill had the best talent in the conference. That's a pretty clear point. When moving to the B1G, his talent was again arguably the worst in the conference. Is Kill improving the talent here? Of course he is. Not saying he will have the best talent in the B1G.. Never said that.. Rather you give him time and, similar to NIU, he might put the best talented roster on the field for the Gophers in quite some time.

Yeah, just noticed that you edited all that into the previous post. Should have said that in the first place rather than implying that he was going to do it in the B1G, the same way he did it at SIU and NIU.

Oh and thanks for Not singling you out specifically, but some posters make it sound like it's a common occurrence in the B1G to have coaches come in and turn a program around but no need really.

Nobody has said it.
 

I don't agree that Kill is over matched. Relative to his and his assistance game day coaching. I believe Kill is at a tactical disadvantage because of his player's athletic limitations. I think Kill is a very good strategists, but at some point football becomes a simple process of physics. These programs have bigger, stronger, and faster players. No matter how good a coach is only occasionally will less talented players beat more talented players. Has anyone looked at Coach "Z's" resume? He's coached nowhere of note. So it comes down to recruiting. Down here we have coaches who have played in National Championship Games and coached in National Championship games. When they show up in a family's front room their resumes are so much more impressive than "I coached at Southern and Northern Illinois." Its a shame that they have began to erode the confidence of a kid like Nelson. What's up with our training program that so many linemen get hurt? I think they are over their head in everything, BUT what happens on game day.
 



I'm not all worked up. This is a forum on Gopherhole. That's fine if you think that a coach can't rebuild a program in 2 years. Do you believe a coach can do it in 3 years? 4 years? 5 years? He rebuilt the program whichever way you look at it. If a team is considered a bottom 10 program when a coach takes over and then has an undefeated conference record within three seasons, many would agree that's rebuilding a program. Why are so many gopherholers now saying Kill isn't a rebuilder because of one loss?

I've never said once that Kill and staff weren't rebuilders. I said I don't think Kill or any coach can rebuild a program in 2 yrs. there isn't enough time to get recruiting squared away in 2 yrs. I have said kill has never rebuilt a major conference team, which is much harder than rebuilding a Mac school.

If I'm going to give a coach benefit of the doubt for rebuilding a program, I think it takes a full recruiting cycle. Kill should get 5 yrs to right this ship, if it doesn't look better than it does now we will look for another coach. Kill isn't recruiting at a high level if a person buys into the player rankings. Not sure how we get the football program right without good recruiting? Time will tell
 


Yeah, just noticed that you edited all that into the previous post. Should have said that in the first place rather than implying that he was going to do it in the B1G, the same way he did it at SIU and NIU.

Oh and thanks for Not singling you out specifically, but some posters make it sound like it's a common occurrence in the B1G to have coaches come in and turn a program around but no need really.

Nobody has said it.


Sorry, I wasn't aware you're a monitor of this whole forum. I've seen plenty of comments over the last few days that would prove otherwise but I guess it's how we perceive other fan's posts
 

I don't agree that Kill is over matched. Relative to his and his assistance game day coaching. I believe Kill is at a tactical disadvantage because of his player's athletic limitations. I think Kill is a very good strategists, but at some point football becomes a simple process of physics. These programs have bigger, stronger, and faster players. No matter how good a coach is only occasionally will less talented players beat more talented players. Has anyone looked at Coach "Z's" resume? He's coached nowhere of note. So it comes down to recruiting. Down here we have coaches who have played in National Championship Games and coached in National Championship games. When they show up in a family's front room their resumes are so much more impressive than "I coached at Southern and Northern Illinois." Its a shame that they have began to erode the confidence of a kid like Nelson. What's up with our training program that so many linemen get hurt? I think they are over their head in everything, BUT what happens on game day.

Agree. I like the looks of the 2014 class to this point, but we have to get more top drawer kids on the field.
 

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Sorry, I wasn't aware you're a monitor of this whole forum. I've seen plenty of comments over the last few days that would prove otherwise but I guess it's how we perceive other fan's posts

Me oh hell no, but apparently you're psychic! :cool:
 

What's your definition of rebuilding a program? Look at the B1G.. What coach in the last 10 years in the conference has rebuilt a program?

Pay Fitzgerald is one.. He is coaching his 8th season at Northwestern and over the last 2-3 years he has proven as a "rebuilder." However, it took him a good 5 years to elevate Northwestern. What other coach in the conference has rebuilt their program?

Indiana: Kevin Wilson? Not yet. Showing promise but they've had their fare share of "bad" losses.

Michigan: Brady Hoke? Not sure if coaching at Michigan is a rebuilding project, albeit Hoke has brought back Wolverines football to where it should be, but even this year Michigan has taken a step back in Hoke's 3rd year

Ohio State: Urban Meyer? No

Wisconsin: Gary Anderson? No

Purdue: Darrel Hazell? Unlikely but too early to tell. Not off to a good start.

Bo Pelini: not even close

Iowa: Kirk Farentz? Has had plenty of ups and downs but followed Iowa's version of Vince Lombardi. So not really a rebuilding project.

Michigan State: Mark Dantonio: Yes he did rebuild Michigan State after John Smith went to one bowl in 4 years.

Illinois: Tim Beckman: No. However Ron Zook put Illinois football back on the map.. Briefly.

Penn State: Bill O'Brien: Not yet but shows promise.

The point is that there are two current coaches (Dantonio and Fitzgerald) that are consisting Re-builders in the conference. Honorable mention: Hoke I guess.

Fitzgerald has done well in Evanston but it's taken him several years to do so. Dantonio did it in a relatively short amount of time. It also depends on how rebuilding a program is defined.

Give Kill time. A revolving door isn't the answer. Out of all the coaches in the B1G, there are a select few who've pulled it off in last decade. And here we are second guessing Kill in his third year, not to mention what Kill was left with. Give it time and don't let one game throw the rebuilding project off-track especially considering the recent history of rebuilding in the conference. Deep breath... Beat Michigan!!

Most of these comparisons are ridiculous. And if Year 3 is too early to judge Kill, why do you already fail Beckman as a rebuilder in his second year (with a team that looks much improved). Why does Hazell looking unlikely already in his first year? Purdue doesn't look much worse that we did in Kill's first year. You decry those overreacting to one game, but are confident in saying Michigan has taken a step back this year because they played two pretty lousy games.

You can't have your cake (Kill deserves time) and eat it too (these other coaches aren't rebuilding).
 

That's because he had the best talent in the MAC. I guess Kill shouldn't get credit for the level of talent at NIU either. Like a previous poster claims, he won with Novak's players, right?

Like my previous post tried to explain, what coach in the B1G has rebuilt a program in the conference in the first 5 years besides Dantonio and Fitzgerald? Not singling you out specifically, but some posters make it sound like it's a common occurrence in the B1G to have coaches come in and turn a program around. It's not a coincidence the Gophers have been mediocre at best for a half century. It takes time and getting all worked up over one bad loss makes our fan base look pathetic in my opinion. Why should we be so expecting? Kill might fail here and we'll find out but he's coached what?? 17 conference games now? A little premature perhaps? I don't know..


How about Glen Mason, going 5-3 in B1G play in his THIRD season as coach of the Gophers. Weird how quickly we forget.

Kill didn't "re-build" anything at Northern Illinois. Why do people keep insisting that he has some widely respected program building reputation? He took over a better than decent mid-major program from a retiring coach, won a few games and before his team even played in a bowl game his third season, quit to take the Minnesota job.

Fun facts about Kill. He's never won a bowl game. Yup, he is 0-3. (International Bowl, Humanitarian Bowl and Meineke Car Care Bowl).
But hey, with that record and experience winning at a high level, not to mention his early round FCS playoff exit teams at Southern Illinois, its only a matter of time before Kill gets us to the Sun Bowl and beyond- I mean, isn't it obvious he has a track record of doing exactly what we are expecting?
 


Pat Fitzgerald did not and is not "rebuilding" Northwestern, he is taking them to the next level.
Gary Barnet rebuilt them almost overnight in the mid 90s, they leveled off with Randy walker and now Pat is taking them back to the next level.


Rebuilding assumes something previous was built, but how far back do you need to go? Indiana hasn't really ever had a program, so Wilson is building something.
Michigan could be "rebuilding" but with the resources that school has for football, its not really the same thing, its more re-loading.

Whether you want the next level or the program back to the middle of the road average it was under Mason (and for 1 season Brewster) How is Kill the right guy? He's not personally taken any school to the next level, never won a bowl game, never won any big game either frankly, his last game at NIU was a loss in the conference championship.
 

Pat Fitzgerald did not and is not "rebuilding" Northwestern, he is taking them to the next level.
Gary Barnet rebuilt them almost overnight in the mid 90s, they leveled off with Randy walker and now Pat is taking them back to the next level.


Rebuilding assumes something previous was built, but how far back do you need to go? Indiana hasn't really ever had a program, so Wilson is building something.
Michigan could be "rebuilding" but with the resources that school has for football, its not really the same thing, its more re-loading.

Whether you want the next level or the program back to the middle of the road average it was under Mason (and for 1 season Brewster) How is Kill the right guy? He's not personally taken any school to the next level, never won a bowl game, never won any big game either frankly, his last game at NIU was a loss in the conference championship.

If by "overnight" you mean "had a winning season in year four" then it's kind of odd you're giving up on Kill at about 2.5 years.
 

Teams Glen Mason beat that year: Northwestern (3-8), Indiana (4-7), Iowa (1-10).

Hmmm, I seem to remember them also beating #2 ranked Penn State at Penn State and beating a 8-4 Illinois team. Honorable mention was a 3 point OT loss to Wisconsin.

You're right, those 5 conference wins were all garbage though, total luck and in no way should we have any expectations or standards for Kill based on previous (recent and modest) success at this university....
 

If by "overnight" you mean "had a winning season in year four" then it's kind of odd you're giving up on Kill at about 2.5 years.

Last to first in one season is what I meant.

The hope Kill can do the same is, I think, unrealistic and misguided.
 

Hmmm, I seem to remember them also beating #2 ranked Penn State at Penn State and beating a 8-4 Illinois team. Honorable mention was a 3 point OT loss to Wisconsin.

You're right, those 5 conference wins were all garbage though, total luck and in no way should we have any expectations or standards for Kill based on previous (recent and modest) success at this university....

You know, there's also 7 conference games left in the season.

The point is, it's not an apples to apples comparison.
 


Teams Glen Mason beat that year: Northwestern (3-8), Indiana (4-7), Iowa (1-10).

Northwestern (3-8), Indiana (4-7), Iowa (1-10) AND Illinois (8-4) and Penn State (10-3)

"negatively4thstreet" you are just really TRYING too hard.
 

Northwestern (3-8), Indiana (4-7), Iowa (1-10) AND Illinois (8-4) and Penn State (10-3)

"negatively4thstreet" you are just really TRYING too hard.

You're missing the point, but it's Saint Glen-related so I'm not surprised. You're going back on "ignore."
 




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