WCCO's Steve Thomson: "I'm starting to think Kill and assistants are overmatched"

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Novak was the one that brought credibility to NIU. That is a fact. It was a positively awful program before he arrived.

Kill, to his credit, then elevated it.
 

Studwell55 said:
That's over-stating it.

But it's demoralizing that we were never, ever in the game today.

Today we paid the price for our game plans in the first four games. Weren't ready to play a real game with a real team.
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Exactly. That's what I said last week and got a beatdown because of it.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Kill did a great job at Northern but agree 100% that it was not a rebuild and really wish people would stop using that as an example of how great he is at rebuilding programs.

Bottom line is we didn't look like be belonged on the field with Iowa today and that is very troubling in year 3. That was not a great Iowa team by any stretch of the imagination but they just physically dominated our guys from start to finish. They only scored 23 but does anyone really think they could not have put up significantly more points if they had wanted to? Ferentz is extremely conservative when he gets a lead and that showed big time yesterday.
There are winnable games left on the schedule but we are going to need to see a whole lot more than what we saw yesterday if we think we will get the W in any of them.
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Yeah, he intentionally left points out there, because 2 score leads are so comforting. It's not like the Gophers had come back on him in recent years either.

It's fine to hate (says something about ones life though) but your analysis is stupid.
 



GopherInPittsburgh said:
Well which one is it? Are you saying Kill doesn't deserve credit because he just succeeded in Novak's footsteps while Doeren deserves credit for succeeding in Kill's?
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I say that Kill deserves some credit, but some on here talk as if the Northern Illinois program owes all or most of its success to Kill. He deserves part, not the majority and definitely not all. He didn't build the program like some like to credit him with, nor did he lead them to a BCS game like some like to credit him with. He was a good middle-man who played a role there and deserved credit for that.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Kill did a great job at Northern but agree 100% that it was not a rebuild and really wish people would stop using that as an example of how great he is at rebuilding programs.
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This isn't as good of a story as the mythical legendary Jerry Kill version that so many here want to grasp on to.
 

savagerube said:
And Novak was 47-38 in the MAC and Kill was 18-6 in the MAC. You're right, Novak should get all the credit.
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You're including a lot of years where Novak actually was building the program from the ground up.

Honestly, it's a really semantic and stupid argument to be having either way. It doesn't matter if Kill was a good MAC coach or not. The question is if he can compete at this level.
 

mnsports1 said:
Yeah, he intentionally left points out there, because 2 score leads are so comforting. It's not like the Gophers had come back on him in recent years either.

It's fine to hate (says something about ones life though) but your analysis is stupid.
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Iowa fans have complained for years about how conservative Ferentz is. Iowa knew very early on that we were a minimal threat at best based on the way they were dominating our offensive and defensive lines. They played it very very safe, did what they do best and controlled the game. An aggressive coach would have gone for it both times in the first quarter when they had the ball on our side of the field, Ferentz elected to play safe, punt and go for the long field goal. In that game yesterday a 2 score lead was very safe.

At some point the ultra positive fans need to realize that what they see as hatred is actually people just being realistic. I am a longtime fan and a U of M alum, what I saw on that field yesterday was pathetic. We were non competitive with a team we should be in the same class as.
 



MNVCGUY said:
At some point the ultra positive fans need to realize that what they see as hatred is actually people just being realistic. I am a longtime fan and a U of M alum, what I saw on that field yesterday was pathetic. We were non competitive with a team we should be in the same class as.
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Exactly. Too many here try to make criticizers look extreme by claiming we think the sky is falling. That is not the case, at least with me. The simple fact is we looked horrible yesterday. I see very little progress and if we come away with 0 or 1 big ten wins, Kill will rightfully be on the hot seat. I think a big problem lies with Limegrover, but Kill will not replace him so Kill has to live with his decisions and if it leads to his termination, so be it.
 


MNVCGUY said:
At some point the ultra positive fans need to realize that what they see as hatred is actually people just being realistic. I am a longtime fan and a U of M alum, what I saw on that field yesterday was pathetic. We were non competitive with a team we should be in the same class as.
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Don't worry, killjoy will be here soon to tell everyone how they aren't an expert, none of us know what we're talking about, and Kill is always right.
 




Gold Vision said:
Man, I'd have to disagree. I thought he looked much better actually throwing the ball dropping back in rhythm. He was awful on the run yesterday.
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I'd disagree with this. Nelson looks at his first read, and if that isn't there, the ball comes down, he moves, and doesn't know where to go. It's painful, and frustrating to watch. Even my wife saw it, "he looks like a high school qb trying to play D1 football."
 


MNSpaniel said:
the thing that was frustrating about the passing game is that the throws that were completely missed were not that difficult to make.
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1. I agree with this statement. Many of Nelson's misses were not difficult throws.
2. I disagree with people who think that if we played a tougher schedule we would have won yesterday. IMHO we would be in the same place, but our record would be worse.
3. I will also predict that after playing such a very uninspiring game yesterday we will perform much better next week in Ann Arbor.
4. The "coaches being overmatched" argument is hollow in my opinion. Although we were dominated yesterday, I believe that if we had made a few big plays the tone on the game would have been different and the coaches would have looked smarter. Oh course, we didn't make any real big plays and that made the the coaches look stupid. We obviously need some playmakers and the coaches need to figure out how to use them. I previously said that Limegrover needs to step it up, but when you can't run and your passing attack is pedestrian, what is an OC to do? (OK, he could develop a QB). Go Gophers.
 

I imagine this is Thomson just ripping for ripping sakes, seeing the Neighbor lost the Gophers a few years back. Frankly, I've always thought he has been overmatched.

Seriously, I don't know what to think. I think Kill's a good coach and I think Claeys is a good defensive coordinator. Not sure on Limegrover. There are days I think he wants to bring back the Flying Wedge. I have no opinion on the other guys. As long as they can recruit and teach, I'm fine with them. I trust Kill in this department.

It's true this isn't the MAC and we're simply not going to get it done with MAC-level athletes. We joke about the coveted Western Michigan offer, but it really isn't a joke and we've got to start landing guys who can run. Team speed has gotten better, but it still isn't good enough. We have to get stronger on the lines as well. I don't care how good a conditioning coach Eric Klein is, he can't automatically transform guys into supermen.

This is going to take awhile, but I think Kill can get it done and get it done right. When Brewster was fired, my first choices were Hoke and Golden. Maybe they saw better openings on the horizon in the same hiring cycle (I think this is relatively certain in Hoke's case), but I think Kill ranks solidly with the other people considered. He just needs to get some studs in here.
 

TCF=UnitedWeStand said:
I'd disagree with this. Nelson looks at his first read, and if that isn't there, the ball comes down, he moves, and doesn't know where to go. It's painful, and frustrating to watch. Even my wife saw it, "he looks like a high school qb trying to play D1 football."
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Not totally disagreeing, but when our passing game consists of play action passes on third and long with two WR (who struggle getting separation most of the time) running deep routes, that makes the QBs job tougher. Add that to our struggling line and you get what you've seen for the last three years.
 

Nort73 said:
Add that to our struggling line and you get what you've seen for the last three years.
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I keep waiting for the o-line people kept talking about the last couple years that was supposed to be awesome this year and next to show up. It was supposed to attract great running backs to Minnesota.

Can we face facts that we need a legit O-line coach? We haven't seen any improvement. The Olson brothers were supposed to be great the anchors and neither can get on the field because of injury and their play. Also, how can you be a position coach from the booth?
 

Kill used to have the balls to role the dice (onside kick, faked field goal, etc) but he has gotten soft. We need more gutsy calls like that if we ever want to be in a game this year becaue we just dont have it to go straight up with someone and win, sans maybe indiana.
 


scools12 said:
This isn't as good of a story as the mythical legendary Jerry Kill version that so many here want to grasp on to.
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What's your definition of rebuilding a program? Look at the B1G.. What coach in the last 10 years in the conference has rebuilt a program?

Pay Fitzgerald is one.. He is coaching his 8th season at Northwestern and over the last 2-3 years he has proven as a "rebuilder." However, it took him a good 5 years to elevate Northwestern. What other coach in the conference has rebuilt their program?

Indiana: Kevin Wilson? Not yet. Showing promise but they've had their fare share of "bad" losses.

Michigan: Brady Hoke? Not sure if coaching at Michigan is a rebuilding project, albeit Hoke has brought back Wolverines football to where it should be, but even this year Michigan has taken a step back in Hoke's 3rd year

Ohio State: Urban Meyer? No

Wisconsin: Gary Anderson? No

Purdue: Darrel Hazell? Unlikely but too early to tell. Not off to a good start.

Bo Pelini: not even close

Iowa: Kirk Farentz? Has had plenty of ups and downs but followed Iowa's version of Vince Lombardi. So not really a rebuilding project.

Michigan State: Mark Dantonio: Yes he did rebuild Michigan State after John Smith went to one bowl in 4 years.

Illinois: Tim Beckman: No. However Ron Zook put Illinois football back on the map.. Briefly.

Penn State: Bill O'Brien: Not yet but shows promise.

The point is that there are two current coaches (Dantonio and Fitzgerald) that are consisting Re-builders in the conference. Honorable mention: Hoke I guess.

Fitzgerald has done well in Evanston but it's taken him several years to do so. Dantonio did it in a relatively short amount of time. It also depends on how rebuilding a program is defined.

Give Kill time. A revolving door isn't the answer. Out of all the coaches in the B1G, there are a select few who've pulled it off in last decade. And here we are second guessing Kill in his third year, not to mention what Kill was left with. Give it time and don't let one game throw the rebuilding project off-track especially considering the recent history of rebuilding in the conference. Deep breath... Beat Michigan!!
 

Nort73 said:
Not totally disagreeing, but when our passing game consists of play action passes on third and long with two WR (who struggle getting separation most of the time) running deep routes, that makes the QBs job tougher. Add that to our struggling line and you get what you've seen for the last three years.
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I totally agree, but that's the problem - our receivers need the ball on the money to catch it, and Nelson (other than the 1st half of Purdue last year), has not been able to do that.

I actually thought the pass protection yesterday was decent, but Nelson ran himself into some sacks. The run blocking, however - ish.
 


savagerube said:
What's your definition of rebuilding a program? Look at the B1G.. What coach in the last 10 years in the conference has rebuilt a program?

Pay Fitzgerald is one.. He is coaching his 8th season at Northwestern and over the last 2-3 years he has proven as a "rebuilder." However, it took him a good 5 years to elevate Northwestern. What other coach in the conference has rebuilt their program?

Indiana: Kevin Wilson? Not yet. Showing promise but they've had their fare share of "bad" losses.

Michigan: Brady Hoke? Not sure if coaching at Michigan is a rebuilding project, albeit Hoke has brought back Wolverines football to where it should be, but even this year Michigan has taken a step back in Hoke's 3rd year

Ohio State: Urban Meyer? No

Wisconsin: Gary Anderson? No

Purdue: Darrel Hazell? Unlikely but too early to tell. Not off to a good start.

Bo Pelini: not even close

Iowa: Kirk Farentz? Has had plenty of ups and downs but followed Iowa's version of Vince Lombardi. So not really a rebuilding project.

Michigan State: Mark Dantonio: Yes he did rebuild Michigan State after John Smith went to one bowl in 4 years.

Illinois: Tim Beckman: No. However Ron Zook put Illinois football back on the map.. Briefly.

Penn State: Bill O'Brien: Not yet but shows promise.

The point is that there are two current coaches (Dantonio and Fitzgerald) that are consisting Re-builders in the conference. Honorable mention: Hoke I guess.

Fitzgerald has done well in Evanston but it's taken him several years to do so. Dantonio did it in a relatively short amount of time. It also depends on how rebuilding a program is defined.

Give Kill time. A revolving door isn't the answer. Out of all the coaches in the B1G, there are a select few who've pulled it off in last decade. And here we are second guessing Kill in his third year, not to mention what Kill was left with. Give it time and don't let one game throw the rebuilding project off-track especially considering the recent history of rebuilding in the conference. Deep breath... Beat Michigan!!
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Have no idea what this is all about. Didn't say Kill should be fire. Didn't compare to any other coach in the conference. All I was referring to was that Kill didn't build Northern Illinois as some here want to believe.
 

scools12 said:
Have no idea what this is all about. Didn't say Kill should be fire. Didn't compare to any other coach in the conference. All I was referring to was that Kill didn't build Northern Illinois as some here want to believe.
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I'm trying to figure out what your definition of rebuilding a program is? Some would argue that taking over a team that was 9-16 during the two previous seasons and also taking over a program that just had their head coach of 11 years retire has the makeup of a "rebuilding" coaching job. In two years, Kill brought Northern Illinois to a level that was never experienced at NIU. When Kill took over the program, ESPN rated Northern Illinois in the bottom 10 College Football programs.

Link: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?page=bottom100710

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can argue that Coach Kill didn't rebuild the NIU program. Saying he didn't rebuild it at all is simply preposterous.

Comparing Kill to his peers in the B1G adds insight on how rare it is to have a coach rebuild a program in 3 years; much less 5 years. Similar to many other posts on this board, a response to an individual thread addresses the op but also addresses other feedback on the thread.

Now tell me, how did Kill not rebuild NIU to some capacity??
 


savagerube said:
I'm trying to figure out what your definition of rebuilding a program is? Some would argue that taking over a team that was 9-16 during the two previous seasons and also taking over a program that just had their head coach of 11 years retire has the makeup of a "rebuilding" coaching job. In two years, Kill brought Northern Illinois to a level that was never experienced at NIU. When Kill took over the program, ESPN rated Northern Illinois in the bottom 10 College Football programs.

Link: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?page=bottom100710

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can argue that Coach Kill didn't rebuild the NIU program. Saying he didn't rebuild it at all is simply preposterous.

Comparing Kill to his peers in the B1G adds insight on how rare it is to have a coach rebuild a program in 3 years; much less 5 years. Similar to many other posts on this board, a response to an individual thread addresses the op but also addresses other feedback on the thread.

Now tell me, how did Kill not rebuild NIU to some capacity??
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without looking up the NIU roster kill won with, i think its a relatively safe assumption that kill won with the previous coaches roster. not sure if that means "rebuilding?" kill is a good coach and can win if the talent is there, tough thing right now is, it doesnt appear he is bringing in the top end talent to change things at minnesota
 

The Gophs were 1 bad Interference call on E Murray and 1 Engel TD from being in the game. It's pretty simple, you doom and gloom wieners would be crowing Natl Championship if the gophs had eeked out a win.
 

lakesgopher said:
without looking up the NIU roster kill won with, i think its a relatively safe assumption that kill won with the previous coaches roster. not sure if that means "rebuilding?" kill is a good coach and can win if the talent is there, tough thing right now is, it doesnt appear he is bringing in the top end talent to change things at minnesota
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So that must mean that Dave Doeren went to the Orange Bowl with Kill's players then.. It can't go both ways. If Doeren went to the Orange Bowl (based on your theory) two years after Kill left, then Kill actually rebuilt the program to a higher level than first perceived. This whole argument about Kill having success with Novak's players but Doeren led NIU to the Orange Bowl without anything to do with Kill is completely flawed. Which one is it? Whichever one it is, Kill rebuilt the program. Plain and Simple.
 

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