Vikings' deal to play at U was a tough bargain

[Fuzzy Rumpton]

It was my quote, yes.

I still think MLS is, for now, a long way off for several reasons.
I did say that the sports market is fairly saturated for a market our size. There is only so much discretionary entertainment spending to go around and with four major league teams, Big Ten Football and Basketball, Gopher Hockey, and even the Lynx, that's spread pretty thin.

The argument that soccer is popular with kids has been around since the old NASL days, and it didn't hold water then, and it doesn't now. Playing the game doesn't translate into following the sport as an adult. The Gophers don't even have a men's team.

Also 8000 fans would put them rock bottom in attendance in the MLS. 10,000 would be second to last. I would think MLS would want at least league average of 18,000 - more than the Wolves, and about what the Wild draw. I don't see it.

Finally, MLS teams are legally owned by the league, though are transitioning to more of an investor model. Hard to say if they would want the Wilfs in the club.

The current stadium in Blaine is a pain in the ass to get to, especially for those in the south metro. The U doesn't have a men's team most likely due to Title 9 restrictions. They'd probably only need a 15,000 seat stadium, I could see it happening before 2020.

 

[jovs]

That's what, 2-3 times a year. So we're building a billion dollar stadium for 13 days a year instead of 10. Okay.

If you are going to play the 10 times a year game, what exactly did the 300 mil for TCF get you, students are not that much more involved, a few more people feel good about it, but really, you are selling the community as a whole and the stadiums are a big part of it, even if the actual experience isn't really that much different, is it worth the price, hard to quantify it.

 

[disco]

If you are going to play the 10 times a year game, what exactly did the 300 mil for TCF get you, students are not that much more involved, a few more people feel good about it, but really, you are selling the community as a whole and the stadiums are a big part of it, even if the actual experience isn't really that much different, is it worth the price, hard to quantify it.

I honestly think building facilities for colleges is different. They aren't owned by someone, and they can't threaten to leave. You could make the argument that the Gophers and Vikings should have worked together on a solution, but clearly the two parties wanted different things, and the U wasn't going to turn down a chance to move back to campus.

Now what SHOULD have happened is that the Gophers and Saints should have built a joint new stadium on the current site of Midway stadium, rather than rebuilding Siebert field (which is hard to get to and poorly attended), and building a Saints stadium in Lowertown (which defeats much of the purpose of Saints games, which is to get drunk tailgating, and will likely prevent concerts from being held there).

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

If you are going to play the 10 times a year game, what exactly did the 300 mil for TCF get you, students are not that much more involved, a few more people feel good about it, but really, you are selling the community as a whole and the stadiums are a big part of it, even if the actual experience isn't really that much different, is it worth the price, hard to quantify it.

TCF was different for me as it brought the experience back on campus and outdoors. The Vikings are rebuilding in the same area (which is fine) and building another indoor stadium. Not much different from a fan perspective (certainly not 1 Billion different) but it's a lot different from a revenue perspective for the ownership.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

Now what SHOULD have happened is that the Gophers and Saints should have built a joint new stadium on the current site of Midway stadium, rather than rebuilding Siebert field (which is hard to get to and poorly attended), and building a Saints stadium in Lowertown (which defeats much of the purpose of Saints games, which is to get drunk tailgating, and will likely prevent concerts from being held there).

The Saints stadium will be interesting. Do you think it will breath some additional life into Lowertown as Target Field did for the North Loop?

 

[Gopherguy0723]

It was my quote, yes.

I still think MLS is, for now, a long way off for several reasons.
I did say that the sports market is fairly saturated for a market our size. There is only so much discretionary entertainment spending to go around and with four major league teams, Big Ten Football and Basketball, Gopher Hockey, and even the Lynx, that's spread pretty thin.

The argument that soccer is popular with kids has been around since the old NASL days, and it didn't hold water then, and it doesn't now. Playing the game doesn't translate into following the sport as an adult. The Gophers don't even have a men's team.

Also 8000 fans would put them rock bottom in attendance in the MLS. 10,000 would be second to last. I would think MLS would want at least league average of 18,000 - more than the Wolves, and about what the Wild draw. I don't see it.

Finally, MLS teams are legally owned by the league, though are transitioning to more of an investor model. Hard to say if they would want the Wilfs in the club.

Spot on. We actually need hundreds of thousands of more residents to fully support our existing teams. The Wolves and Wild operate a zero sum game. Both teams cannot currently sellout, even if they're good, due to the finite amount of entertainment dollars. We need more people to increase that amount to support both of them. Plus, with HD tv, more people aren't even attending games. It's a lot easier to watch high quality sports at home on a weeknight than to drive to one of the downtown's and spend a lot of money.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Has anyone mentioned concussions in the discussion regarding the Vikings stadium?

Young parents aren't allowing their children to play football due to head trauma. If less kids play the talent pool for college and the NFL will definitely shrink. That will lead to a worse product. Moreover, insurance for schools due to football head trauma is increasing. It won't be far off until schools drop football due to the prohibitive cost. This will further damage the talent pool and lead to an inferior product. It also seems likely that if less children participate in the sport then less people will watch the sport. If children don't play the game, then those children are less likely to be fans of the gaming, further eroding the game.

This lack of participation will really start to show in 15-20 years. That means the Vikings will play half the expected lifetime of their stadium before a dearth of talent arrives. Ratings may or may not drop by then.

This is fairly speculative, but it's definitely within the realm of possibility. The NFL could easily lose popularity; thus, the stadium may not ever live up to current expectations.

I really don't see anything positive about the stadium deal at all other than that I like the design. I'd much rather have the Vikings leave than build this monstrosity. Besides, the Vikings never would have left. They had no where to go. That L.A. stadium failed and it was known that it was going to fail. The politicians could have driven a Wilf-esque bargain. The Wilfs either say yes and the stadium gets built with hundreds of millions less in tax dollars (I could support a percentage somewhere around 20% of the total), or they say no and the Vikings are forced to stay in the Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome (not Mall of America Field).

The politicians bargained against themselves.

 

[UpnorthGo4]

Now what SHOULD have happened is that the Gophers and Saints should have built a joint new stadium on the current site of Midway stadium, rather than rebuilding Siebert field (which is hard to get to and poorly attended), and building a Saints stadium in Lowertown (which defeats much of the purpose of Saints games, which is to get drunk tailgating, and will likely prevent concerts from being held there).

Gopher sporting events belong on campus. That it is how it is supposed to be. And I thought the purpose of St. Paul Saints games is to bring your family to watch baseball at a reasonably affordable price, give your children the opportunity to get their faces painted and chase pigs and foul balls, and offer your wife the chance to get a back message from a nun. I guess I was doing it wrong. However, the one thing I didn't enjoy about the Saints games were the crummy seats in an ugly ballpark situated in an industrial park near a railroad yard. The new Saints downtown ballpark is going to be great for both the Saints and Lowertown. In addition to baseball games, it is going to host a large variety of community events in the summer including concerts. And you will be able to get to it by jumping on the LRT which will now be a part of the our local culture just like trains in New York and Chicago. Here is a partial list of Twin Cities sports and entertainment venues located within a reasonable walking distance of an LRT station (it's all coming together quite nicely for the Met Council and its anti-automobile supporters):

- Vikings Stadium

- Target Field

- Target Center

- Orchestra Hall

- Minneapolis Convention Center

- Hennepin Avenue Theaters

- Guthrie Theater

- TCF Stadium

- Williams Arena

- Mariucci Arena

- Gopher Ballpark

- Northrup Auditorium

- Xcel Energy Center

- St. Paul River Center

- Ordway Hall

- Minnesota Science Museum

- Minnesota Children's Museum

- Minnesota History Museum

- St. Paul Saints Ballpark

- Mall of America

 

[station19]

Has anyone mentioned concussions in the discussion regarding the Vikings stadium?

Young parents aren't allowing their children to play football due to head trauma. If less kids play the talent pool for college and the NFL will definitely shrink. That will lead to a worse product. Moreover, insurance for schools due to football head trauma is increasing. It won't be far off until schools drop football due to the prohibitive cost. This will further damage the talent pool and lead to an inferior product. It also seems likely that if less children participate in the sport then less people will watch the sport. If children don't play the game, then those children are less likely to be fans of the gaming, further eroding the game.

This lack of participation will really start to show in 15-20 years. That means the Vikings will play half the expected lifetime of their stadium before a dearth of talent arrives. Ratings may or may not drop by then.

This is fairly speculative, but it's definitely within the realm of possibility. The NFL could easily lose popularity; thus, the stadium may not ever live up to current expectations.

I really don't see anything positive about the stadium deal at all other than that I like the design. I'd much rather have the Vikings leave than build this monstrosity. Besides, the Vikings never would have left. They had no where to go. That L.A. stadium failed and it was known that it was going to fail. The politicians could have driven a Wilf-esque bargain. The Wilfs either say yes and the stadium gets built with hundreds of millions less in tax dollars (I could support a percentage somewhere around 20% of the total), or they say no and the Vikings are forced to stay in the Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome (not Mall of America Field).

The politicians bargained against themselves.

They currently play in/on both.

I do agree the future of football will be something to keep an eye on and the 20% sounds about right.

Just think of all the stadiums that were built with the threat of 'or else we will move to L A'. Makes you wonder how all those stadiums would be able to survive in L A.

 

[disco]

Gopher sporting events belong on campus. That it is how it is supposed to be. And I thought the purpose of St. Paul Saints games is to bring your family to watch baseball at a reasonably affordable price, give your children the opportunity to get their faces painted and chase pigs and foul balls, and offer your wife the chance to get a back message from a nun. I guess I was doing it wrong. However, the one thing I didn't enjoy about the Saints games were the crummy seats in an ugly ballpark situated in an industrial park near a railroad yard. The new Saints downtown ballpark is going to be great for both the Saints and Lowertown. In addition to baseball games, it is going to host a large variety of community events in the summer including concerts.

The current site of Midway stadium is nearly on the St. Paul Campus. The Women's Soccer stadium is in St. Paul - no reason baseball can't be either.

Building a ballpark for an unaffiliated minor league team makes no sense. The Saints are an excuse to drink outside in the summer - I can do that on my deck. I sincerely doubt that even a large minority of the people at those games care who wins or loses - the games don't matter. The railroad and the rundown nature of the park adds to the charm of watching nobodies play meaningless baseball.

With no tailgating, and a likely extremely strict curfew for concerts (If they're even allowed at all - I have my doubts - isn't that Dave Thune's ward? He's against everything.) that takes away two of the cool things about the current minor league park. This thing will fail - mark my words.

 

[Sports_Realist]

MLS at the Vikings stadium on any sort of long term basis is a pipe dream. MLS has four teams in football stadiums. A compromise was made for the Seattle Sounders playing Century Link Field in order to get Paul Allen in as an owner and Microsoft as a sponsor. Then the team achieved support that exceeded all expectations and likely won't occur elsewhere. The Vancouver Whitecaps' home, BC Place has a unique interior roof that completely hides the unused upper deck in a fashion not possible here. The New England Revolution at Gillette Stadium and DC United at RFK Memorial Stadium are both desperately trying to get new soccer only stadiums in the 20,000 to 25,000 capacity range. So why is MLS going to go against its otherwise clearly stated stadium model to play in the new Vikings stadium? Even if the upper decks are closed, the ticket buying public will know about the unused 40,000 or so seats, a psychological barrier to making the seats a commodity. You also have the issue of trying to get fans indoors on summer nights. I just don't see it at all.

 

[Gopher Placenta]

MLS at the Vikings stadium on any sort of long term basis is a pipe dream. MLS has four teams in football stadiums. A compromise was made for the Seattle Sounders playing Century Link Field in order to get Paul Allen in as an owner and Microsoft as a sponsor. Then the team achieved support that exceeded all expectations and likely won't occur elsewhere. The Vancouver Whitecaps' home, BC Place has a unique interior roof that completely hides the unused upper deck in a fashion not possible here. The New England Revolution at Gillette Stadium and DC United at RFK Memorial Stadium are both desperately trying to get new soccer only stadiums in the 20,000 to 25,000 capacity range. So why is MLS going to go against its otherwise clearly stated stadium model to play in the new Vikings stadium? Even if the upper decks are closed, the ticket buying public will know about the unused 40,000 or so seats, a psychological barrier to making the seats a commodity. You also have the issue of trying to get fans indoors on summer nights. I just don't see it at all.

Yep.

The state would want to push any MLS team into the new stadium for obvious reasons, but in addition to the size, I can't see MLS wanting an indoor team or, for that matter, fans wanting to watch indoor soccer during the summer.

The Wilf's were also supposed to have first right to lure an MLS team, although I don't know if that made it into the final agreement or not. Regardless, I can't see MLS wanting to bring in the Wilf's. They've been badly exposed (see the New York Observer piece) and would bring terrible publicity. This whole affair has embarrassed the state.

And, as pointed out by previous posters, the Twin Cities market is/will be overbuilt by a couple stadiums and at least one major league sports franchise (and that's not accounting for Gopher football, men's basketball or men's hockey). Our population simply isn't big enough for 4 (7 counting the Gopher squads) professional/DI teams, never mind a 5th.

 

[disco]

MLS at the Vikings stadium on any sort of long term basis is a pipe dream. MLS has four teams in football stadiums. A compromise was made for the Seattle Sounders playing Century Link Field in order to get Paul Allen in as an owner and Microsoft as a sponsor. Then the team achieved support that exceeded all expectations and likely won't occur elsewhere. The Vancouver Whitecaps' home, BC Place has a unique interior roof that completely hides the unused upper deck in a fashion not possible here. The New England Revolution at Gillette Stadium and DC United at RFK Memorial Stadium are both desperately trying to get new soccer only stadiums in the 20,000 to 25,000 capacity range. So why is MLS going to go against its otherwise clearly stated stadium model to play in the new Vikings stadium? Even if the upper decks are closed, the ticket buying public will know about the unused 40,000 or so seats, a psychological barrier to making the seats a commodity. You also have the issue of trying to get fans indoors on summer nights. I just don't see it at all.

I can always count on you to be the voice of reason, here and elsewhere…

One interesting addition to what you wrote, is that BC place was originally a near twin to the Metrodome and the Hoosier Dome. It underwent extensive renovation for the Olympics in Vancouver, basically making it a new stadium. Some have asked why we couldn't have done that - because it reduced capacity considerably, making it too small for an NFL stadium in its new configuration.

 

[UpnorthGo4]

The current site of Midway stadium is nearly on the St. Paul Campus. The Women's Soccer stadium is in St. Paul - no reason baseball can't be either.

Building a ballpark for an unaffiliated minor league team makes no sense. The Saints are an excuse to drink outside in the summer - I can do that on my deck. I sincerely doubt that even a large minority of the people at those games care who wins or loses - the games don't matter. The railroad and the rundown nature of the park adds to the charm of watching nobodies play meaningless baseball.

With no tailgating, and a likely extremely strict curfew for concerts (If they're even allowed at all - I have my doubts - isn't that Dave Thune's ward? He's against everything.) that takes away two of the cool things about the current minor league park. This thing will fail - mark my words.

Dave Thune is retiring at the end of his current term. When that happens everyone who lives, works, or visits in St. Paul will start having more fun. The new Saints ballpark is going to work - see you there.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Dave Thune is retiring at the end of his current term. When that happens everyone who lives, works, or visits in St. Paul will start having more fun. The new Saints ballpark is going to work - see you there.

Yeah. As with the Vikings stadium, I'm not wild that they just marched on without a real revenue stream or anything approaching math showing a decent return on public $investment. However, it's a great spot for a small stadium that brings in a couple thousand people many times a year and can host all sorts of other cultural activities. Also, I was unaware that people can have a great time pre-gaming for a baseball game without a big parking lot to tailgate in. I guess people will just have to settle for Barrio, The Bulldog, Kelly's Depot, Faces, Black Dog, Gopher Bar, and anything else that may crop up as a stadium and more development replaces surface parking lots. Similar to the Vikings Stadium proposed park deal, Mears Park should be made available for an outdoor tailgate party on gamedays. Food trucks, allowed open containers, etc mixed in with kid activities could make it a really great destination.

Back to the Vikings Stadium.. this picture could not be more perfect.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Yeah. As with the Vikings stadium, I'm not wild that they just marched on without a real revenue stream or anything approaching math showing a decent return on public $investment. However, it's a great spot for a small stadium that brings in a couple thousand people many times a year and can host all sorts of other cultural activities. Also, I was unaware that people can have a great time pre-gaming for a baseball game without a big parking lot to tailgate in. I guess people will just have to settle for Barrio, The Bulldog, Kelly's Depot, Faces, Black Dog, Gopher Bar, and anything else that may crop up as a stadium and more development replaces surface parking lots. Similar to the Vikings Stadium proposed park deal, Mears Park should be made available for an outdoor tailgate party on gamedays. Food trucks, allowed open containers, etc mixed in with kid activities could make it a really great destination.

Back to the Vikings Stadium.. this picture could not be more perfect.

Is it me, or does Zygi look like Wario? Zygi knows he pulled a fast one on the state. He cannot contain himself.

 

[4four4]

The current stadium in Blaine is a pain in the ass to get to, especially for those in the south metro. The U doesn't have a men's team most likely due to Title 9 restrictions. They'd probably only need a 15,000 seat stadium, I could see it happening before 2020.

Yesterday commissioner Garber discussed expansion and if we look at the map there is an arrow directly pointed at Mpls/St. Paul.

The following quotes are from www.mlssoccer.com today.

"Although Garber refrained from providing a firm timeline on either of the two expansion bids, he did reveal some of the cities that could be next in line for consideration, singling out Minneapolis, San Antonio, Austin and St. Louis.

But for any of those cities to have a realistic shot, they'll need a plan for a downtown stadium.

"The downtown formula has been working for us and it’s hard to imagine that we would go into a market where we don’t have that scenario," Garber said. "It’s not an absolute, but whether it’s Minneapolis, or St. Louis, or Austin or San Antonio."

It might be a pipe dream but we surely will know within four to five years if MLS decides to add the Twin Cities to their mix. Who knows maybe Dr. McGuire and Nick Rogers of Minnesota United FC may have a say if they want to be in the mix.

 

[station19]

Yesterday commissioner Garber discussed expansion and if we look at the map there is an arrow directly pointed at Mpls/St. Paul.

The following quotes are from www.mlssoccer.com today.



It might be a pipe dream but we surely will know within four to five years if MLS decides to add the Twin Cities to their mix. Who knows maybe Dr. McGuire and Nick Rogers of Minnesota United FC may have a say if they want to be in the mix.

Looks more like Duluth or Grand Marais to me.

 

[positively4thstreet]

Is it me, or does Zygi look like Wario?

I'd say so:

 

[FireDaveLee]

Those two couldn't have posed for a more appropriate picture if they were told what to do and 100 shots were taken....

 

[UpnorthGo4]

And, as pointed out by previous posters, the Twin Cities market is/will be overbuilt by a couple stadiums and at least one major league sports franchise (and that's not accounting for Gopher football, men's basketball or men's hockey). Our population simply isn't big enough for 4 (7 counting the Gopher squads) professional/DI teams, never mind a 5th.

It won't be long before the Twin Cities is home to a large enough immigrant community along with an ever-growing population of home grown soccer fans to fill an MLS-size soccer stadium. The Twin Cities is a very attractive market for MLS. Soccer is one of the few team sports played in every country in the world. We need to have an MLS team. Sooner or later, I believe we are going to get one.

 

[Ski U Master]

Is it me, or does Zygi look like Wario? Zygi knows he pulled a fast one on the state. He cannot contain himself.

 

[MRJ]

Yeah. As with the Vikings stadium, I'm not wild that they just marched on without a real revenue stream or anything approaching math showing a decent return on public $investment. However, it's a great spot for a small stadium that brings in a couple thousand people many times a year and can host all sorts of other cultural activities. Also, I was unaware that people can have a great time pre-gaming for a baseball game without a big parking lot to tailgate in. I guess people will just have to settle for Barrio, The Bulldog, Kelly's Depot, Faces, Black Dog, Gopher Bar, and anything else that may crop up as a stadium and more development replaces surface parking lots. Similar to the Vikings Stadium proposed park deal, Mears Park should be made available for an outdoor tailgate party on gamedays. Food trucks, allowed open containers, etc mixed in with kid activities could make it a really great destination.

Back to the Vikings Stadium.. this picture could not be more perfect.

Have to laugh. Hopefully, this image sticks around forever when we look back at how a greedy and convicted defrauder joined forces with an incompetent buffoon to collectively screw the state of Minnesota.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Close, that is Waluigi!

 

[Gopherguy0723]

This is Zygi...er...Wario.

 

[Ski U Master]

Close, that is Waluigi!

I think he kind of looks more like Waluigi

 

[disco]

It won't be long before the Twin Cities is home to a large enough immigrant community along with an ever-growing population of home grown soccer fans to fill an MLS-size soccer stadium. The Twin Cities is a very attractive market for MLS. Soccer is one of the few team sports played in every country in the world. We need to have an MLS team. Sooner or later, I believe we are going to get one.

Then someone is going to have to build yet another stadium here. The Vikings stadium isn't going to be attractive to MLS.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Then someone is going to have to build yet another stadium here. The Vikings stadium isn't going to be attractive to MLS.

That stadium is not going to happen; thus, we're not getting a team. Play at TCF, play at the Vikings stadium, or don't play here at all.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

The city is also not a tough negotiator. A one-time, $1m donation gets you quite a bit, apparently.
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@clerk/documents/webcontent/wcms1p-117738.pdf

The MSFA will have use of the easterly block for up to forty days per year. The Vikings will have use of the entire park during Vikings games days and up to ten additional days per year. The MSFA and the Vikings can restrict access to certain specific areas of the park on their specified event days; nevertheless, the general public will have access to the balance of the park during these events. The MSFA and the Vikings will be responsible for all event day expenses attributable to their events

20 days a year exclusivity (for eternity?) for the entirety of a 2-block park. Pretty sweet deal.

 

[4four4]

That stadium is not going to happen; thus, we're not getting a team. Play at TCF, play at the Vikings stadium, or don't play here at all.

In the words of AM 1500 Garage Logic, "We don't know that". Not that I am disagreeing with you but we will not know until MLS makes their decision on the 24th and likely not last expansion club.