Vikings' deal to play at U was a tough bargain

[Iceland12]

Ah yes that reminds me....During those discussions Good Ol Sid made the comment, "I was just out there the other day to look it over and had no problem getting in or out of there."

Okay Sid.

In the midst of his dozens of comments saying "What a joke. It's never leaving Downtown".

Say, anybody remember the mega-deal that the Wilfs were proposing for Anoka County?

 

[station19]

In the midst of his dozens of comments saying "What a joke. It's never leaving Downtown".

Say, anybody remember the mega-deal that the Wilfs were proposing for Anoka County?

Sid likes to cover all the bases.

 

[AF_Howie_2180]

In the midst of his dozens of comments saying "What a joke. It's never leaving Downtown".

Say, anybody remember the mega-deal that the Wilfs were proposing for Anoka County?

That deal was a go until Anoka County discovered the Wilfs (surprise surprise) were trying to back door a deal in Minneapolis. Over 150 million was on the table from Anoka County.

 

[disco]

Of all the sites that were considered Arden Hills was the absolute worst. It was NEVER going to happen. Everybody knew it except the clowns who are in charge of Ramsey County. The cost to finish cleaning up the contamination at Arden Hills and build the infrastructure to get people to and from games was going to make the taxpayer cost for the Dome site look look like tinker toys. Plus the taxpayers just spent a couple of billion dollars on light rail and not one Viking fan would be able to use it to get to the games in Arden Hills.

I disagree. Building a stadium on the ammo dump site would have been by far the best option. An NFL stadium is completely different than an arena or a ballpark, which draw fans 80-200 days a year and result in surrounding bars, restaurants etc. Most NFL stadiums are used 10 times a year for games, and a few other large events that draw significant attendance.

Putting the stadium in a large empty area with acres of parking (that the team would no doubt get revenue from) and tailgating makes sense. Not to mention that the Arden Hills site isn't ideal for much else because of the clean up - it's not like they can build housing there - who would knowingly trust living on a superfund site? (and shouldn't the Federal government be the ones footing the bill for the cleanup regardless of what is to go there - it was their facility).

The infrastructure argument is silly. That site is basically at the intersection of two major highways - 35W and 10. LRT is a recent development in the Twin Cities. Before a few years ago, the dome was served only by city streets - same as TCF. How is the Arden Hills site worse than that?

 

[skauma]

I don't mind them negotiating either, but it seems as though the Wilfs are snake oil salesmen. From issues with some previous partners to the new stadium deal looking less and less fair for the state. They really don't have the leverage yet they act as though they hold the cards.

I am hoping that in the end, things work out for the betterment of both teams/programs, and however shady dealings have been regarding the two, in the end, the Vikings will have a brand new stadium, and the Gophers will have some stadium/facilities improvements, and some added revenue.

 

[makemyday]

Took my grandson to the Vikings Packers game at the dome. At halftime the Vikings inducted Joey Browner into their "hall". Absolutely loved it when the ceremony started and Ziggy stepped up to the podium to get the thing started. He was met by loud and very long boos. It was great. I even joined in. It felt good to let him know what a shyster he is.

 

[UpnorthGo4]

I disagree. Building a stadium on the ammo dump site would have been by far the best option. An NFL stadium is completely different than an arena or a ballpark, which draw fans 80-200 days a year and result in surrounding bars, restaurants etc. Most NFL stadiums are used 10 times a year for games, and a few other large events that draw significant attendance.

Putting the stadium in a large empty area with acres of parking (that the team would no doubt get revenue from) and tailgating makes sense. Not to mention that the Arden Hills site isn't ideal for much else because of the clean up - it's not like they can build housing there - who would knowingly trust living on a superfund site? (and shouldn't the Federal government be the ones footing the bill for the cleanup regardless of what is to go there - it was their facility).

The infrastructure argument is silly. That site is basically at the intersection of two major highways - 35W and 10. LRT is a recent development in the Twin Cities. Before a few years ago, the dome was served only by city streets - same as TCF. How is the Arden Hills site worse than that?

It was going to be incredibly expensive to construct the additional freeway lanes, on and off ramps, and access roads necessary to get 60,000 to 70,000 people in an out of the Arden Hills site without creating huge traffic jams in that part of the metro area. Taxpayers have already invested two or three billion to build LRT in order to accommodate the movement of large numbers of people. Minneapolis already has the infrastructure to handle the Viking crowds. Count me among those who believe that government should do what it can to save the taxpayers money by using what already exists.

The primary purpose of a public sports facility should be to enhance the local community rather than to line the pockets of the team owners. For decades cities all over America (large and small) have been spending huge amounts of money on their existing downtowns in order to make them attractive places to live, work, and do business. Sports and entertainment facilities located in the downtown area are a significant piece of the puzzle needed to achieve those goals.

The benefits for building the new Vikings Stadium in downtown Minneapolis are far greater than anything the Arden Hills site would do for the metro area. It is not even a close call. The primary beneficiaries of the Arden Hills site (other than Viking tailgaters) were going to be Ziggy and everyone else with land available for spin-off development that would further decentralize office and commercial development in the Twin Cities and make it more difficult for the central business districts in Minneapolis and St. Paul to grow and prosper. If downtowns aren't growing - then they are dying. Count me among those who don't want to live in a community with dead downtowns.

 

[DLguy]

^^^ +100

 

[AF_Howie_2180]

It was going to be incredibly expensive to construct the additional freeway lanes, on and off ramps, and access roads necessary to get 60,000 to 70,000 people in an out of the Arden Hills site without creating huge traffic jams in that part of the metro area. Taxpayers have already invested two or three billion to build LRT in order to accommodate the movement of large numbers of people. Minneapolis already has the infrastructure to handle the Viking crowds. Count me among those who believe that government should do what it can to save the taxpayers money by using what already exists.

The primary purpose of a public sports facility should be to enhance the local community rather than to line the pockets of the team owners. For decades cities all over America (large and small) have been spending huge amounts of money on their existing downtowns in order to make them attractive places to live, work, and do business. Sports and entertainment facilities located in the downtown area are a significant piece of the puzzle needed to achieve those goals.

The benefits for building the new Vikings Stadium in downtown Minneapolis are far greater than anything the Arden Hills site would do for the metro area. It is not even a close call. The primary beneficiaries of the Arden Hills site (other than Viking tailgaters) were going to be Ziggy and everyone else with land available for spin-off development that would further decentralize office and commercial development in the Twin Cities and make it more difficult for the central business districts in Minneapolis and St. Paul to grow and prosper. If downtowns aren't growing - then they are dying. Count me among those who don't want to live in a community with dead downtowns.

Funny you'd say that. They just completed an expansion project on highway 10 & 694 that improved access to that whole area. 35w is already at 3 lanes north and south through there, game day traffic would not even be close to what is typical for normal rush hour.

On top of that, all the beautiful people could come over via 610/highway and not even need to use the route from MLPS. They could have arrived to the site from the north, the south metro fans could have come up 35w and the east metro could have come down from 694/10. Other than possibly adding an additional flyover from 35w south to access the northern part of the site or using the county road that buffers the northern side of the development, the need for road improvements was greatly over played for the site.

Building away from the core downtowns, with development such as this stadium would have been, is not a new idea, see Dallas, new Braves ball park, new Niners park. It's all of a 15 min shot up 35 from DT, so it's not like is across the state. It would have a positive influence for everyone.

 

[station19]

It was going to be incredibly expensive to construct the additional freeway lanes, on and off ramps, and access roads necessary to get 60,000 to 70,000 people in an out of the Arden Hills site without creating huge traffic jams in that part of the metro area. Taxpayers have already invested two or three billion to build LRT in order to accommodate the movement of large numbers of people. Minneapolis already has the infrastructure to handle the Viking crowds. Count me among those who believe that government should do what it can to save the taxpayers money by using what already exists.

The primary purpose of a public sports facility should be to enhance the local community rather than to line the pockets of the team owners. For decades cities all over America (large and small) have been spending huge amounts of money on their existing downtowns in order to make them attractive places to live, work, and do business. Sports and entertainment facilities located in the downtown area are a significant piece of the puzzle needed to achieve those goals.

The benefits for building the new Vikings Stadium in downtown Minneapolis are far greater than anything the Arden Hills site would do for the metro area. It is not even a close call. The primary beneficiaries of the Arden Hills site (other than Viking tailgaters) were going to be Ziggy and everyone else with land available for spin-off development that would further decentralize office and commercial development in the Twin Cities and make it more difficult for the central business districts in Minneapolis and St. Paul to grow and prosper. If downtowns aren't growing - then they are dying. Count me among those who don't want to live in a community with dead downtowns.

So you're saying Met Stadium destroyed downtown Mpls?

 

[DLguy]

If the stadium were to have been built in Arden Hills, we would not be able to host any NCAA bball tourney games, and it would be unlikely of us hosting B1G football and NCG games. Events like those do not want their events way out in the suburbs. They want them near or in a downtown so the visitors have ample lodging and entertainment near the event.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Funny you'd say that. They just completed an expansion project on highway 10 & 694 that improved access to that whole area. 35w is already at 3 lanes north and south through there, game day traffic would not even be close to what is typical for normal rush hour.

On top of that, all the beautiful people could come over via 610/highway and not even need to use the route from MLPS. They could have arrived to the site from the north, the south metro fans could have come up 35w and the east metro could have come down from 694/10. Other than possibly adding an additional flyover from 35w south to access the northern part of the site or using the county road that buffers the northern side of the development, the need for road improvements was greatly over played for the site.

Building away from the core downtowns, with development such as this stadium would have been, is not a new idea, see Dallas, new Braves ball park, new Niners park. It's all of a 15 min shot up 35 from DT, so it's not like is across the state. It would have a positive influence for everyone.

Unless you count the environment, more wasteful/unproductive road building, or any other negative associated with our current pattern of development. I've got my criticisms of how the Vikings Stadium as designed for downtown interacts with the neighborhood (not to mention the $45m car-storage structure and skyway the public is building to further subsidize driving as a mode choice), but downtown is a much better location. Even with professional sporting events only taking place 10-12x a year. Any other activities it can hold (MSHSL, conventions, baseball games for local colleges like... you know.. the U, NCAA basketball games, concerts, potentially an MLS team, etc) are more centrally located and are better fits for an urban environment. There are plenty of NFL stadiums located in or near downtown cores: Cleveland, New Orleans, Charlotte, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Nashville, Atlanta, and Cleveland all have stadiums within miles (or directly inside) urban cores. While many of them may be just across a river or freeway, or have "bad urban design," the point that locating them where more people can easily access them still stands.

So you're saying Met Stadium destroyed downtown Mpls?

Not by itself. But the pattern of development that supported Met Stadium (roads roads roads), the fact that one could only (reasonably) access baseball and football games if they owned a car, and the other ancillary development (offices/restaurants/housing) around it that could have been incrementally added to downtown and surrounding neighborhoods all aided the decline of downtown Minneapolis.

I think in the end we can all agree that the way the Wilfs & Co have treated the U is indicative of the way they likely negotiated behind closed doors (and, well, out in the open) regarding their new stadium in general. Completely abhorrent. The Falcons are managing to pay for a new stadium with far, far less public money. We should have been able to secure at least the same deal.

 

[DLguy]

So you're saying Met Stadium destroyed downtown Mpls?

Completely diffferent. That was built at a time when everyone was moving out of the main cities and into suburbs. The opposite is happening now.

 

[UpnorthGo4]

So you're saying Met Stadium destroyed downtown Mpls?

No. I am saying the new Vikings Stadium and related development will be a significant asset to downtown Minneapolis just like all the other publicly subsidized entertainment venues such as Target Field, Target Center, Orchestra Hall, Walker Art Center, Guthrie Theater, Mpls Convention Center, and the Hennepin Avenue theaters. They bring people downtown which is a primary goal of every central city in America. Other than in New York and Chicago (and maybe a few others) very few people go downtown to shop anymore. That is why sports and entertainment venues have become so attractive as downtown development projects. But I understand. If you live in the suburbs or out-state you probably don't give a rip what happens to downtown Minneapolis. Fortunately, plenty of people do and that is why the new Vikings Stadium was NEVER going to Arden Hills. Among other interested parties, the corporations and other businesses with huge investments in downtown Minneapolis (e.g. Target Corporation) were just NOT going to let it happen.

 

[station19]

No. I am saying the new Vikings Stadium and related development will be a significant asset to downtown Minneapolis just like all the other publicly subsidized entertainment venues such as Target Field, Target Center, Orchestra Hall, Walker Art Center, Guthrie Theater, Mpls Convention Center, and the Hennepin Avenue theaters. They bring people downtown which is a primary goal of every central city in America. Other than in New York and Chicago (and maybe a few others) very few people go downtown to shop anymore. That is why sports and entertainment venues have become so attractive as downtown development projects. But I understand. If you live in the suburbs or out-state you probably don't give a rip what happens to downtown Minneapolis. Fortunately, plenty of people do and that is why the new Vikings Stadium was NEVER going to Arden Hills. The business community with huge investment in downtown Minneapolis (e.g. Target Corporation) was just NOT going to let it happen.

I wonder how all the smokers outside of Mpls feel about that.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

I wonder how all the smokers outside of Mpls feel about that.

The fact that the state had to find ludicrous means to fund the damn thing is an indictment of 1) public involvement in the first place, 2) over-stretched bonding capacity/existing general fund revenue streams in both the city and state, forcing them to find other means.

I disagree that any and all entertainment options should be viewed as a public asset and thus on the hands of the public to help fund. The NFL is a very, VERY successful private enterprise (which the main organization wrongnfully enjoys non-profit status). Same with the MLB, NHL, etc and all their individual teams. Many theater venues as they exist in non-profit status are successful on their own as well. There are some venues or entertainment options that are worthy of public support as the art/craft they do may never support itself on the open market but are worth having in our culture just the same (though one could easily make the case that these entertainment options face unfair competition from heavily subsidized professional sports, etc). I also don't think the answer is to "get people downtown" since they don't go there to shop anymore. They don't go downtown anymore because miles of freeways and acres of parking were provided by code in suburban areas, masking the true cost of making journeys by car. The answer is to encourage development of residential, commercial, and even more office spaces downtown by better property tax codes, use of public spaces (streets, parks), and transit investments. If people live (and likely work) downtown, shopping and entertainment will follow.

(btw, if Target really cared about downtown(s across the country), they wouldn't just be fighting for a stadium in Minneapolis, they'd stop building subsidized big box stores in exurbs)

 

[husker70]

When negotiating we had what they wanted. What they needed. The only thing standing between us was public opinion. Please tell me 3 million was not our initial offer. Whomever was negotiating with the Wilf's should have let them state what they wanted and for how long, and responded with we don't think we can do that. Wait......... Unless you are will to pay $10 million per year paid in advance, submit a $5 million damage deposit, and we retain control over any changes to our stadium, all concession revenue, all box, club seat sales, parking. We were not tough enough. When a party cannot make a meeting, they are not serious and disrespectful. The first meeting they missed, should have had a penalty built in of say 2 million. I would bet they wouldn't shuffle off to Buffalo. I hate to say it but the negotiators at the U were had.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

When negotiating we had what they wanted. What they needed. The only thing standing between us was public opinion. Please tell me 3 million was not our initial offer. Whomever was negotiating with the Wilf's should have let them state what they wanted and for how long, and responded with we don't think we can do that. Wait......... Unless you are will to pay $10 million per year paid in advance, submit a $5 million damage deposit, and we retain control over any changes to our stadium, all concession revenue, all box, club seat sales, parking. We were not tough enough. When a party cannot make a meeting, they are not serious and disrespectful. The first meeting they missed, should have had a penalty built in of say 2 million. I would bet they wouldn't shuffle off to Buffalo. I hate to say it but the negotiators at the U were had.

This is the key. The U wants to be seen as good stewards to state businesses. They also know that the majority of Gophers fans are probably also Vikings fans, and most other people in the state are only Vikings fans. Many ardent/vocal Vikings fans could crucify the U, a public enterprise, for screwing over the Vikings or being seen to "maximize profit" using a stadium built largely with public dollars in the first place. I don't think the negotiators at the U were incapable of coming up with the best deal possible for them. They worked within a very unfair set of expectations, particularly given the fact that those sitting across the table didn't feel the same need to be respectful, courteous, and fair (given the massive amount of public dollars they're already receiving).

 

[dpodoll68]

If the stadium were to have been built in Arden Hills, we would not be able to host any NCAA bball tourney games, and it would be unlikely of us hosting B1G football and NCG games. Events like those do not want their events way out in the suburbs. They want them near or in a downtown so the visitors have ample lodging and entertainment near the event.

Yeah, it's not like Jerryworld hosts any big events.

 

[dpodoll68]

RBY, are you a lobbyist for a transit group? An inordinate number of your posts are spent bashing cars and the people who use them.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

Would this tactic work?

Norwood: So Zigi, how long do you expect to use your new stadium?
Zigi: 50 years
Norwood: so $1 billion divided by 50 = 20million per year. How about we cut you a deal and you can play at TCF for 10 million per year?

 

[DLguy]

Yeah, it's not like Jerryworld hosts any big events.

Thanks for finding the one example at a stadium which is a completely different animal.

 

[DLguy]

Why in the world would you build a stadium out in the suburbs, when you have all the infrastructure already in place at the current location. Doesnt make any sense.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

I like neighborhoods (where you can walk to stuff), but for an NFL stadium I could see putting it in the burbs with large parking lots for tailgating. Would anyone agree that the Twins are more of an urban fan base than the Vikings?

 

[disco]

I like neighborhoods (where you can walk to stuff), but for an NFL stadium I could see putting it in the burbs with large parking lots for tailgating. Would anyone agree that the Twins are more of an urban fan base than the Vikings?

Absolutely. The Twins draw a lot from people who live downtown, or work downtown and attend games after work.
Plus Target Field (and Target Center) are basically attached to the huge parking ramps that feed directly from 394.

And as far as Target goes - they're doubling the size of the northern campus in Brooklyn Park. I expect a lot of those jobs will be moving from the more expensive real estate downtown.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

RBY, are you a lobbyist for a transit group? An inordinate number of your posts are spent bashing cars and the people who use them.

? What % of my last 100 posts even have the words 'car' or 'transit' in them? I don't bash cars, just the massive subsidies in land-use, housing, and transportation that shifted market preferences, leave lower-income people stranded for transportation (or forced into expensive car-ownership), and have huge unintended environmental consequences. Anything and everything is related to it, particularly when discussing major investments like stadia. Therefore it's a good opportunity to bring it up to people who may not even think about how the decisions they make on a daily basis, not to mention beliefs they've held for many years, ought to be at least somewhat challenged.

 

[dpodoll68]

? What % of my last 100 posts even have the words 'car' or 'transit' in them? I don't bash cars, just the massive subsidies in land-use, housing, and transportation that shifted market preferences, leave lower-income people stranded for transportation (or forced into expensive car-ownership), and have huge unintended environmental consequences. Anything and everything is related to it, particularly when discussing major investments like stadia. Therefore it's a good opportunity to bring it up to people who may not even think about how the decisions they make on a daily basis, not to mention beliefs they've held for many years, ought to be at least somewhat challenged.

I don't have a % for you, but you've been doing it for quite some time, and it's obvious to anyone paying attention. It's an odd thing to be fixated on, especially on a Gopher football message board.

The fact that you didn't answer the question leads me to believe that I'm pretty close if not dead on.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

I don't have a % for you, but you've been doing it for quite some time, and it's obvious to anyone paying attention. It's an odd thing to be fixated on, especially on a Gopher football message board.

The fact that you didn't answer the question leads me to believe that I'm pretty close if not dead on.

I work for Emerson Process Management, who sells Temp/Level/Flow devices to power plants, refineries, and municipal/university systems. Nothing related to transit/transportation whatsoever. Thanks for playing. I love that on message boards or comments sections of articles people just assume anyone with an opinion outside the 'norm' must work for XXX developer, YYY transit lobbying firm, etc. Even if that were true (it isn't), would it matter? Did any of my posts ever shill out for a particular firm, job, company, etc? Is it any more obnoxious than your internet tough guy act you put on, having multi-post side arguments with people just to make sure everyone knows how smart you are?

If I'm so fixated on it, I'm sure you can go find a %, or number of times it comes up in football-related threads or topics to prove it. (and not things like gameday operations/logistics, off-topic threads like this one related to Vikings stadium talk, general university infrastructure discussions, etc). The fact that you didn't leads me to believe that you've just got a personal bone to pick with my opinions.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

I didn't notice any fixation on transit, but I think it is a very relevant question to urban planning/stadium discussions.

Can you guys believe that the stadium price is $1billion for 10 game a year?? That is what stands out the most to me.

 

[Iceland12]

I didn't notice any fixation on transit, but I think it is a very relevant question to urban planning/stadium discussions.

Can you guys believe that the stadium price is $1billion for 10 game a year?? That is what stands out the most to me.

The HHH Dome was used for over 300+ events nearly every year, at least that's the number that was thrown out there. Now how many of them brought in revenue? Throw-in 2 or 3 Monster truck and a handful of Corporate events and you've got a very good point.