UNI and Wisconsin Rosters

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HOOP DREAMS said:
What is your recruiting source? Link? Cuz lots of three and even 2 star guys.

Wisco is not made up of 4 and 5 star guys
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Not saying they're made up four or five star guys, I am just saying Rivals, scout, 247 all put a helluva lot more effort into work than ESPN does and thus it's a better product. Take a guy like Devoe Joeseph he was I believe a four star on Rivals, not even ranked on ESPN. ESPN is always the last person to the party when it comes to scouting these guys. Personally I like Rivals the best, 247 not bad, the crystal ball annoys me, but they make a composite ranking for recruits that takes their rankings from all the sights. Anyways here's 247 link eight three stars, two four stars, one two star, looks like they didn't rank the walkons http://wisconsin.247sports.com/Team/Wisconsin-Badgers-86/Roster
As for rivals Brown, Hayes, Happ, Ilk, Iverson, Thomas are three stars, Koening and Pritzel are four stars. They have plenty of talent https://wisconsin.n.rivals.com/commitments/basketball/2015
 

bemidjigopher said:
Not saying they're made up four or five star guys, I am just saying Rivals, scout, 247 all put a helluva lot more effort into work than ESPN does and thus it's a better product.
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I could care less what you think of ESPN's rankings, point is (your good buddy) Scher215 is wrong about Wisco being made up of 4 and 5 star guys.

scher215 said:
They are signing one or two 4 and 5 star recruits nearly every year supplemented with high 3 star guys.
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2010
(1) 4 star
(3) 3 star
2011
(2) 4 star
(2) 2 star
(1) 1 star
2012
(1) 5 star
(1) NR
2013
(1) 4 star
(2) 3 star
(2) 2 star
2014
(1) 3 star
(1) 2 star
2015
(2) 4 star
(1) 3 star
(1) 2 star
(1) NR
 

Bad Gopher said:
He did, however, say that he brought in Bakary and Gaston because he wasn't going to be able to recruit comparable bigs domestically. To me, that's laughable. He can find two-star players superior to them within driving distance.
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Yeah? I'll give you Gas but Konate was the 24th rated center in his class(247 comp.). In late feb to April where were we going to find players of his similar rating/abilities. Has he grown as much as we would like? nope but he was a decent recruit for the spring.

I interpreted his quote as saying he got those guys for that recruiting cycle and wasn't going to be able to find them near mn that late in the cycle. maybe I was wrong and he thought that for every year he wouldn't get tall players...
 

HOOP DREAMS said:
I could care less what you think of ESPN's rankings, point is (your good buddy) Scher215 is wrong about Wisco being made up of 4 and 5 star guys.
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Sam dekker was a 5 star recruit in 2012. this years wisc. team is not as good as other year wisconsin teams... Koening was a 4 star in 2013. in 2014 they only got happ as a recruit and in 2015 Pritzel was 4 stars... thats roughly 1 4 or 5 star per year... Not sure how you though scher215 was wrong... "They are signing one or two 4 and 5 star recruits nearly every year supplemented with high 3 star guys."
 


Tim1406 said:
Sam dekker was a 5 star recruit in 2012. this years wisc. team is not as good as other year wisconsin teams... Koening was a 4 star in 2013. in 2014 they only got happ as a recruit and in 2015 Pritzel was 4 stars... thats roughly 1 4 or 5 star per year... Not sure how you though scher215 was wrong... "They are signing one or two 4 and 5 star recruits nearly every year supplemented with high 3 star guys."
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Exactly, thanks. I didn't intend to insinuate every class was entirely 4 and 5 star guys like UK. But they get their fair share mixed in with 3 star players.

The way some in this board tell it, Bo goes on expeditions to the country side hiking through forests and cutting down trees to find and sign the biggest, whitest, slowest, giant of a man he can. Then using his magical Bo Ryan powers, hands him a glowing basketball filled with magical wonderment that makes him a talented basketball player.

Bo is a good coach with a good system and continuity who is also a good recruiter who signs good players.

Nearly every year when Tubby was here, Bo was trotting out a more highly rated group of recruits than Tubby was and yet people still proclaimed he was just signing any tall guy he saw at McDonalds. People still think Berggren was just some random guy Bo saw pumping gas and decided to ask if he wanted to try playing college basketball.
 

scher215 said:
Exactly, thanks. I didn't intend to insinuate every class was entirely 4 and 5 star guys like UK. But they get their fair share mixed in with 3 star players.
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I misread your post, thinking that is what you were saying... looking up the classes though I was surprised how many 3 star and below 3 star guys they have signed since 2010.
 

Tim1406 said:
Yeah? I'll give you Gas but Konate was the 24th rated center in his class(247 comp.). In late feb to April where were we going to find players of his similar rating/abilities. Has he grown as much as we would like? nope but he was a decent recruit for the spring.

I interpreted his quote as saying he got those guys for that recruiting cycle and wasn't going to be able to find them near mn that late in the cycle. maybe I was wrong and he thought that for every year he wouldn't get tall players...
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That's great and all, but it sort of reinforces the premise of the OP. He was rated that high due to his "athleticism" and "upside." The point is that there are other things to base a recruiting strategy on.

But it's true what you say about it being late in the recruiting cycle.
 

ATTENTION: Minnesota doesn't just have white players.:clap:

Race has very little to do with it. Should we have gone harder after J.P instead of putting all the effort into the big three? Hell yes. But please, don't think the coaches don't want to get the top Minny players.
 



The proof of the pudding is the eating thereof.
Whatever the composite, mean, median, bell shaped curve, etc for stars WI BB players have made the big dance for I believe 18 years in a row and for a very long time never finished below 4th in the BIG.
It is my perception from a distance that player development played a major role in that record no matter what the stars prophesied or predicted.
Continuity in the coaching staff and a minimum of off the court bad behavior causing distractions are also good reasons for that record.
 

People get all bent out of shape the second the race card is brought into the equation and for good reason but I agree with the idea. The types of players the Gophers seem to recruit base their game on athleticism and physical skills.

Dorsey -- lightning quick, bulldog defender.
Dupree -- long, good defender, creative ball handler
Murphy -- long, explosive, strong
Konate/Diedou -- long-term upside tied to their length/frames

None of these guys are known for their high levels of "skill"...it's based on physical tools because the style they want to play is that Louisville/Florida up and down pressing, mixing defenses, overwhelming teams with athleticism.

It's been proven that the midwest area is littered with kids that lack that ideal "athleticism and physical profile" but have plenty of skill and potential. It doesn't produce a lot of the really athletic kids.

Pitino shouldn't close off recruiting all over the country, but it feels like he is almost discounting some of the different skill sets the local kids bring to the table, or at least did. He may be coming around to it, seeing as how he's offered Reuvers and signed Hurt. Those are the types of guys Wisconsin gets and when they are juniors and seniors they kick our arse.
 


Biggsohnasty said:
People get all bent out of shape the second the race card is brought into the equation and for good reason but I agree with the idea. The types of players the Gophers seem to recruit base their game on athleticism and physical skills.

Dorsey -- lightning quick, bulldog defender.
Dupree -- long, good defender, creative ball handler
Murphy -- long, explosive, strong
Konate/Diedou -- long-term upside tied to their length/frames

None of these guys are known for their high levels of "skill"...it's based on physical tools because the style they want to play is that Louisville/Florida up and down pressing, mixing defenses, overwhelming teams with athleticism.

It's been proven that the midwest area is littered with kids that lack that ideal "athleticism and physical profile" but have plenty of skill and potential. It doesn't produce a lot of the really athletic kids.

Pitino shouldn't close off recruiting all over the country, but it feels like he is almost discounting some of the different skill sets the local kids bring to the table, or at least did. He may be coming around to it, seeing as how he's offered Reuvers and signed Hurt. Those are the types of guys Wisconsin gets and when they are juniors and seniors they kick our arse.
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Based on what? not offering Macura until late? who else has he discounted due to their lack of athleticism? Joey King? Reggie Lynch? Alex Illikainen? I'm pretty sure he recruited him hard until Alex wouldn't commit and the gophers had someone who wanted to commit.
 



Biggsohnasty said:
People get all bent out of shape the second the race card is brought into the equation and for good reason but I agree with the idea. The types of players the Gophers seem to recruit base their game on athleticism and physical skills. Dorsey -- lightning quick, bulldog defender. Dupree -- long, good defender, creative ball handler Murphy -- long, explosive, strong Konate/Diedou -- long-term upside tied to their length/frames None of these guys are known for their high levels of "skill"...it's based on physical tools because the style they want to play is that Louisville/Florida up and down pressing, mixing defenses, overwhelming teams with athleticism. It's been proven that the midwest area is littered with kids that lack that ideal "athleticism and physical profile" but have plenty of skill and potential. It doesn't produce a lot of the really athletic kids. Pitino shouldn't close off recruiting all over the country, but it feels like he is almost discounting some of the different skill sets the local kids bring to the table, or at least did. He may be coming around to it, seeing as how he's offered Reuvers and signed Hurt. Those are the types of guys Wisconsin gets and when they are juniors and seniors they kick our arse.
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Please, tell me, who are these MN kids who are so highly skilled and highly rated that Pitino ignored? Or even that Tubby ignored? Or heck, let's do this, name all of the MN kids who had a HM offer without a MN offer? People love to through out these ambiguous claims of recruits we didn't sign and I'm really not sure they exist.

Or should Pitino be signing MN kids with nothing but mid major and D2 offers and, fingers crossed, a few work out? Is that what we are arguing for? A Gophers line up made up of D2 white kids because they are from MN?

Pitino and Tubby offered nearly every MN kid deserving of a HM offer and even has signed a few via transfer who had none.
 



GoodasGold said:
I'll stand with you on that assessment. And certainly not faster between the ears!
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Dorsey didn't have a kid while he was in college....

Not sure what I would be more disappointed with if my son did one of those two things. Obviously creation of life is always a great thing, timing however, could have been better.
 

Biggsohnasty said:
People get all bent out of shape the second the race card is brought into the equation and for good reason but I agree with the idea. The types of players the Gophers seem to recruit base their game on athleticism and physical skills. Dorsey -- lightning quick, bulldog defender. Dupree -- long, good defender, creative ball handler Murphy -- long, explosive, strong Konate/Diedou -- long-term upside tied to their length/frames None of these guys are known for their high levels of "skill"...it's based on physical tools because the style they want to play is that Louisville/Florida up and down pressing, mixing defenses, overwhelming teams with athleticism. It's been proven that the midwest area is littered with kids that lack that ideal "athleticism and physical profile" but have plenty of skill and potential. It doesn't produce a lot of the really athletic kids. Pitino shouldn't close off recruiting all over the country, but it feels like he is almost discounting some of the different skill sets the local kids bring to the table, or at least did. He may be coming around to it, seeing as how he's offered Reuvers and signed Hurt. Those are the types of guys Wisconsin gets and when they are juniors and seniors they kick our arse.
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Maybe we should see how our freshman develop before labeling them skilled or unskilled. Let's see what happens when they're juniors and seniors and then judge them. It's unfair to compare Wisconsin's juniors and seniors to freshman who haven't even been on campus a full year.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
Dorsey didn't have a kid while he was in college....

Not sure what I would be more disappointed with if my son did one of those two things. Obviously creation of life is always a great thing, timing however, could have been better.
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i understand he's giving it his best shot.
 

For the record here, I'm not advocating the Gophers to just recruit Minnesota or only focus on recruiting "skill" over "physical skills". Just what I've seen here, it seems like the coaching staff has to this point placed a higher emphasis on finding the athletic guys and banking on their ability to coach their skills.

That makes sense, as you can only get a kid to a certain point in terms of quickness or explosiveness.

I'm also not saying the guys we've recruited aren't skilled...but if you look at them and how they play, it doesn't take a genius to see that they aren't the most skilled. I hope people don't see that as some sort of a shot at the guys, its just how I see them.

I'll compare them to Wisconsin's guys because that's the basis of this topic.

At this point, Ethan Happ is a heck of a lot more skilled as a redshirt freshman than any big we've had in the program in years. Nigel Hayes came in as an energy big man and has developed into a legitimate hybrid forward with guard skills.

They do this consistently. These two guys aren't the first who have shown greater skill than Gopher players.

Maybe that's something that comes along as Pitino grows as a coach, again, I'm just going off what my eyes tell me.
 

Rivals goes back to 2003 with their commitment lists. The names that stick out over that time (covering 3 coaches): Kerry Woolridge, Kevin Payton, Brandon Smith, Engen Nurumbi, Limar Wilson, Maverick Ahanmisi, Chip Armelin, Andre Ingram, Julian Welch, Gaston Diedhiou, Ahmad Gilbert.

Of this group of players, only Welch (and he was pretty borderline) has turned out to be a positive on the court contributor to a successful team. This is the group of players who committed to Minnesota without other good offers (I believe Smith and Gilbert actually had another good offer or two , but they are not listed so I put them on this list). So we've essentially whiffed 9 of 11 (not counting Gilbert yet). This list doesn't account for Wally Ellenson, Charles Buggs( got late fall offers in a supply/demand issue ), Bryce Webster, or Oto Osenieks who didn't have much on court success but did have other good options coming out of school. For the most part though, Minnesota has done pretty well in the last dozen years or so with guys who have made it to campus with other nice offers. The program (spanning 3 coaches) just hasn't done much at all with the lightly recruited kids. As mentioned in this thread schools like Wisconsin and Iowa have had much more success with lighter recruited kids.

I see the issue as breaking down in to 4 parts: Player Evaluation, System and Scheme fit, Player Development, and good old fashioned Luck

Player Evaluation: Obviously this is the first place to look. Guys like Gaston, Maverick, and Engen are examples of players that simply looked over matched at this level and call in to question what the coaches saw in these individual players. When people talk about taking chances on local kids, I wonder if the local angle has actually worked against kids getting Gopher offers. The coaches are going to be aware of the limitations and flaws of the local kids they've seen more often and might have just caught a Kerry Woolridge, Kevin Payton, or whomever on a good day. I think there is also a natural inclination of most coaches to take the player who they perceive as having the highest upside because they believe in their ability to help that player reach that ceiling.

System and scheme fit: I think guys like Oto Osenieks, Joey King, and Carlos Morris could have been useful rotation pieces in a different environment. The Gophers haven't had an elite player in a long time and if they had a player who other teams were forced to double a ton, then keeping a Joey King in the corner becomes a much more effective weapon. It's not hard to imagine Carlos Morris as an instant offense contributor off the bench who spells Star A and plays as much as his performance in that particular game dictates. Beyond specific examples though, Pitino in particular has not developed Offensive and Defensive schemes that his teams play consistently all the time. For a Bo Ryan/Greg Gard Wisconsin team they have the advantage of knowing what traits are mandatory for their system and just as importantly what traits they don't need. So watching Wisconsin, we know that their guards have never had to be especially quick, but they are usually strong. In the post, they usually are not overwhelmingly physical but have C's and PF's who can hit perimeter shots. So when Gard is out on the recruiting trail, he can target a lightly recruited guy who has traits that have proven to be successful in the Wisconsin system. It also helps that they usually don't need their lightly recruited guys to come in and contribute immediately where at Minnesota we seem to perpetually need our next class of recruits to come in and contribute immediately if we are going to have a successful season.

Player Development: This speaks for itself, but you've got to get kids to improve. It's rare that we've seen anyone improve significantly in their Gopher career post Clem. Their have certainly been a few (Damian Johnson and Mo Walker come to mind), but it's far easier to point to guys who somehow became less effective as Seniors than they were at other points in their careers (Grier, Mathieu, Eliason, Sampson III, etc, etc) . If our starters and key contributors are not improving, it's hard to see the 9/10/11 guys on the roster making leaps. This is why I am interested to see what we see from players like McBrayer, Murphy, and Dorsey (assuming he's back) next year. All 3 players have very clear strengths, but also some glaring weaknesses. As an example: will we see McBrayer with an improved jump shot and/or stronger body?

Luck: Obviously when you get lightly recruited guys like Aaron White and Roy Marble Jr to turn in to NBA draft picks, you've had a stroke of good fortune. Some guys just have a lot more potential and make leaps that nobody expects them to make. Frank Kaminsky had offers from virtually every school in Illinois...except for the Illini and his best offer outside of Wisconsin was Northwestern (and he had the benefit of being 6'10), so him becoming unguardable for two years certainly exceeded Wisconsin's wildest dreams.
 

EG#9 said:
Rivals goes back to 2003 with their commitment lists. The names that stick out over that time (covering 3 coaches): Kerry Woolridge, Kevin Payton, Brandon Smith, Engen Nurumbi, Limar Wilson, Maverick Ahanmisi, Chip Armelin, Andre Ingram, Julian Welch, Gaston Diedhiou, Ahmad Gilbert.

Of this group of players, only Welch (and he was pretty borderline) has turned out to be a positive on the court contributor to a successful team. This is the group of players who committed to Minnesota without other good offers (I believe Smith and Gilbert actually had another good offer or two , but they are not listed so I put them on this list). So we've essentially whiffed 9 of 11 (not counting Gilbert yet). This list doesn't account for Wally Ellenson, Charles Buggs( got late fall offers in a supply/demand issue ), Bryce Webster, or Oto Osenieks who didn't have much on court success but did have other good options coming out of school. For the most part though, Minnesota has done pretty well in the last dozen years or so with guys who have made it to campus with other nice offers. The program (spanning 3 coaches) just hasn't done much at all with the lightly recruited kids. As mentioned in this thread schools like Wisconsin and Iowa have had much more success with lighter recruited kids.

I see the issue as breaking down in to 4 parts: Player Evaluation, System and Scheme fit, Player Development, and good old fashioned Luck

Player Evaluation: Obviously this is the first place to look. Guys like Gaston, Maverick, and Engen are examples of players that simply looked over matched at this level and call in to question what the coaches saw in these individual players. When people talk about taking chances on local kids, I wonder if the local angle has actually worked against kids getting Gopher offers. The coaches are going to be aware of the limitations and flaws of the local kids they've seen more often and might have just caught a Kerry Woolridge, Kevin Payton, or whomever on a good day. I think there is also a natural inclination of most coaches to take the player who they perceive as having the highest upside because they believe in their ability to help that player reach that ceiling.

System and scheme fit: I think guys like Oto Osenieks, Joey King, and Carlos Morris could have been useful rotation pieces in a different environment. The Gophers haven't had an elite player in a long time and if they had a player who other teams were forced to double a ton, then keeping a Joey King in the corner becomes a much more effective weapon. It's not hard to imagine Carlos Morris as an instant offense contributor off the bench who spells Star A and plays as much as his performance in that particular game dictates. Beyond specific examples though, Pitino in particular has not developed Offensive and Defensive schemes that his teams play consistently all the time. For a Bo Ryan/Greg Gard Wisconsin team they have the advantage of knowing what traits are mandatory for their system and just as importantly what traits they don't need. So watching Wisconsin, we know that their guards have never had to be especially quick, but they are usually strong. In the post, they usually are not overwhelmingly physical but have C's and PF's who can hit perimeter shots. So when Gard is out on the recruiting trail, he can target a lightly recruited guy who has traits that have proven to be successful in the Wisconsin system. It also helps that they usually don't need their lightly recruited guys to come in and contribute immediately where at Minnesota we seem to perpetually need our next class of recruits to come in and contribute immediately if we are going to have a successful season.

Player Development: This speaks for itself, but you've got to get kids to improve. It's rare that we've seen anyone improve significantly in their Gopher career post Clem. Their have certainly been a few (Damian Johnson and Mo Walker come to mind), but it's far easier to point to guys who somehow became less effective as Seniors than they were at other points in their careers (Grier, Mathieu, Eliason, Sampson III, etc, etc) . If our starters and key contributors are not improving, it's hard to see the 9/10/11 guys on the roster making leaps. This is why I am interested to see what we see from players like McBrayer, Murphy, and Dorsey (assuming he's back) next year. All 3 players have very clear strengths, but also some glaring weaknesses. As an example: will we see McBrayer with an improved jump shot and/or stronger body?

Luck: Obviously when you get lightly recruited guys like Aaron White and Roy Marble Jr to turn in to NBA draft picks, you've had a stroke of good fortune. Some guys just have a lot more potential and make leaps that nobody expects them to make. Frank Kaminsky had offers from virtually every school in Illinois...except for the Illini and his best offer outside of Wisconsin was Northwestern (and he had the benefit of being 6'10), so him becoming unguardable for two years certainly exceeded Wisconsin's wildest dreams.
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Great post. Frustrating to see it laid out like this.
 

Biggsohnasty said:
For the record here, I'm not advocating the Gophers to just recruit Minnesota or only focus on recruiting "skill" over "physical skills". Just what I've seen here, it seems like the coaching staff has to this point placed a higher emphasis on finding the athletic guys and banking on their ability to coach their skills. That makes sense, as you can only get a kid to a certain point in terms of quickness or explosiveness. I'm also not saying the guys we've recruited aren't skilled...but if you look at them and how they play, it doesn't take a genius to see that they aren't the most skilled. I hope people don't see that as some sort of a shot at the guys, its just how I see them. I'll compare them to Wisconsin's guys because that's the basis of this topic. At this point, Ethan Happ is a heck of a lot more skilled as a redshirt freshman than any big we've had in the program in years. Nigel Hayes came in as an energy big man and has developed into a legitimate hybrid forward with guard skills. They do this consistently. These two guys aren't the first who have shown greater skill than Gopher players. Maybe that's something that comes along as Pitino grows as a coach, again, I'm just going off what my eyes tell me.
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1) The Gophers/Tubby offered Nigel Hayes (I believe he also visited?) He wasn't ignored. He just chose Wisconsin. Should Tubby have tied him up and dragged him to MN?

2) Happ and Murphy statistically are pretty similar and Murphy is a true freshman compared to the RS freshman. (per 40, Happ:17.6 points, 1.8 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.3 blocks, 11.2 rebounds, 56.8% TS%. Murphy: 17.6 points, 1.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 1.6 blocks, 12 rebounds, 50.6% TS%.)
 

EG#9 said:
Rivals goes back to 2003 with their commitment lists. The names that stick out over that time (covering 3 coaches): Kerry Woolridge, Kevin Payton, Brandon Smith, Engen Nurumbi, Limar Wilson, Maverick Ahanmisi, Chip Armelin, Andre Ingram, Julian Welch, Gaston Diedhiou, Ahmad Gilbert.
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Smith and Ingram were decent. Smith left with Tubby came to Mn (not sure why) and Ingram was stuck picking up scrap mins behind Mbakwe and Rodney.

http://basketball.eurobasket.com/player/Kevin_Payton/Austria/Klosterneuburg/77280 - Hard to believe KP is getting paid to play basketball.
 

scher215 said:
1) The Gophers/Tubby offered Nigel Hayes (I believe he also visited?) He wasn't ignored. He just chose Wisconsin. Should Tubby have tied him up and dragged him to MN?

2) Happ and Murphy statistically are pretty similar and Murphy is a true freshman compared to the RS freshman. (per 40, Happ:17.6 points, 1.8 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.3 blocks, 11.2 rebounds, 56.8% TS%. Murphy: 17.6 points, 1.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 1.6 blocks, 12 rebounds, 50.6% TS%.)
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Thanks for pointing that out about Hayes. He was a top 150 player with offers from a handful of power conference teams and good mid-majors, including Ohio State, Xavier, Butler, and the Gophers. He wasn't just some nobody scrub who blossomed into a star at Wisconsin. Granted I probably wouldn't expect most 3-star players to be all-conference caliber.
 


This thread seems to have gone off the topic of the OP, which if I read it correctly, was making the point that UNI and WI have mainly been recruiting local in-state and nearby-state players. To me the main reason for devoting extra time to recruiting this bunch, especially the in-state players, is the hope that they grew up wanting to play for the state university. I believe this played a big role in Dekker's successful recruitment as he seems to bleed Badger red. Coffey seems like another example. But it is certainly not the case that WI has been super successful in this phase of recruiting battles, despite all of its recent success, back to back FF and all. Diamond Stone is a good example of a local kid (Milwaukee) who everyone saw as a savior for the Badgers as a big who opted to go out of state. However, academics was also a big part of his issue on the UW side (I don't think they actually offered, and were waiting for his grades to improve). VanderBlue is another similar example of a local player (Madison!) who went to Marq, but again academics were an issue there too. In any case one reason to recruit locally is that the odds of landing a local kid are higher than some kid in FL who is considering all of the blue blood schools.
 

scher215 said:
1) The Gophers/Tubby offered Nigel Hayes (I believe he also visited?) He wasn't ignored. He just chose Wisconsin. Should Tubby have tied him up and dragged him to MN?

2) Happ and Murphy statistically are pretty similar and Murphy is a true freshman compared to the RS freshman. (per 40, Happ:17.6 points, 1.8 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.3 blocks, 11.2 rebounds, 56.8% TS%. Murphy: 17.6 points, 1.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 1.6 blocks, 12 rebounds, 50.6% TS%.)
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It seems like you are missing the forest through the trees here. I'm giving examples. If we are going to go through every good player Wisconsin got that the Gophers tried and didn't get, it's going to be a long day. At this point, that school has proven it can find good players and develop them far better than the Gophers have. A lot of it probably has to do with finding the right types of players for each school's system. The Gophers' system seems to place a higher emphasis on recruiting athletes while Wisconsin seems to find the guys with higher skills.

Is this really that complicated? It sure seems simple to me, maybe I'm just bad at typing out what my eyes tell me :)
 

Biggsohnasty said:
It seems like you are missing the forest through the trees here. I'm giving examples. If we are going to go through every good player Wisconsin got that the Gophers tried and didn't get, it's going to be a long day. At this point, that school has proven it can find good players and develop them far better than the Gophers have. A lot of it probably has to do with finding the right types of players for each school's system. The Gophers' system seems to place a higher emphasis on recruiting athletes while Wisconsin seems to find the guys with higher skills. Is this really that complicated? It sure seems simple to me, maybe I'm just bad at typing out what my eyes tell me :)
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I just disagree with your premise. I think it's absolutely true Wisconsin has gotten great players and developed them better than the U. I don't think that is an indictment on Pitino or Tubby though. Wisconsin isn't better at identifying talent, for the most part Pitino and Tubby went after the players Wisconsin got, they are better at signing said players. In part because their final four run wasn't bathed in scandal, they've had continuity at HC, and they've had prolonged success.

So I disagree the Gophers are recruiting different players or worse players or anything like that. We just can't sign them up against Wisconsin. And I think that's a credit to Bo Ryan and that school more so than it is an indictment of Tubby Smith or Richard Pitino.
 

wisbadger303 said:
This thread seems to have gone off the topic of the OP, which if I read it correctly, was making the point that UNI and WI have mainly been recruiting local in-state and nearby-state players. To me the main reason for devoting extra time to recruiting this bunch, especially the in-state players, is the hope that they grew up wanting to play for the state university. I believe this played a big role in Dekker's successful recruitment as he seems to bleed Badger red. Coffey seems like another example. But it is certainly not the case that WI has been super successful in this phase of recruiting battles, despite all of its recent success, back to back FF and all. Diamond Stone is a good example of a local kid (Milwaukee) who everyone saw as a savior for the Badgers as a big who opted to go out of state. However, academics was also a big part of his issue on the UW side (I don't think they actually offered, and were waiting for his grades to improve). VanderBlue is another similar example of a local player (Madison!) who went to Marq, but again academics were an issue there too. In any case one reason to recruit locally is that the odds of landing a local kid are higher than some kid in FL who is considering all of the blue blood schools.
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Fully agree with this. And the main reason MN has struggled as well is kids don't grow up Gopher fans. Many grow up fans of Wisconsin, ISU, or Iowa. Because the Gophers have stunk or cheated most of these kids lives. Until the U starts winning and keeping fans and being a desirable place to go, we will lose out on players we want to other schools. Frankly the job both Tubby and Richard have done so far in state is remarkable all things considered.

The east coast has worked because for a lot of them we aren't competing with their dream schools.

If the U can get that continuity and keep players here and develop them, the roster will look a heck of a lot more skilled.

My point being, Wisconsin hasn't done anything ground breaking. They've found good coaches and they've had a system and athletic department that works. That kids want to be a part of. The U will get there, but it takes time. It's not signing 1 star players and turning them into MJ and the U is just blindly missing on players.
 

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