Ubben: There is one clear way to stop the chaotic roster turnover taking over college football

[State of Football]

I’d like to blame lawyers but law is based on interpretation. Interpretation is desensitizing society of common sense.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

I think some employment law attorneys need to chime on on how equal pay for equal work, Title IX, hourly versus salary would apply to such a scenario. I cannot imagine a scenario at a University of the football team getting paid while, for example, women’s volleyball is not without demonstrations, acrimony, and gender warfare. Production/economic value has little meaning to some people. If, for example, every student athlete were paid minimum wage scale + standard 30-40% in benefits that would be what 20M or so in MN? Add in scholarship costs, attorney fees….and PJF and Coyle might have to take a haircut to keep the lights on. Might have to shake down Huntington for a few more quarters.

Would people donate money to such an entity?

If a player is getting royalty payments in return for giving a non-University third party the commercial right to exploit the player’s name, image and likeness, the player is not an “employee” of that third party (or the University or anybody else). If you were to sell a photo of yourself playing golf at your country club to Newsweek for $100,000, you are not thereby an employee of Newsweek (and certainly not, by virtual if the photo sale, now an employee of your country club). You are simply a non-employee seller of an “intellectual property” item—your image.

If you have to make a few appearances, as well—like the author of a book might at the behest of her publisher—you are going to be an “independent contractor,” not an employee. As an adjunct of her royalty arrangement, an author normally makes appearances at book signings arranged by her publisher; this does not make the author an employee of her book publisher.

Here’s what you need to understand: the whole point of NIL is to give third parties (boosters) the right to dump piles of cash on college football players without those players becoming the boosters’ (or anyone else’s) employees. And this sanitized form of booster cash bribes eliminates entirely the prospect of football players becoming University employees, as the Universities themselves aren’t paying a single penny of salary or compensation to the players. Under no logical scenario would students who receive third party, non-University royalty payments be considered University employees.

It is clear now that NIL, at least as far as the big money is concerned, isn’t about Fortune 500 companies buying up college football players’ brands. It is simply a way for boosters to legally launder millions of dollars in formerly secret bribes to top rated players. (And, possibly, to allow those boosters to deduct these bribes as business expenses).

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I’d like to blame lawyers but law is based on interpretation. Interpretation is desensitizing society of common sense.

It doesn't help that "common sense" for many people is just "do I like this or not?".

 

[Gophers_4life]

If a player is getting royalty payments in return for giving a non-University third party the commercial right to exploit the player’s name, image and likeness, the player is not an “employee” of that third party (or the University or anybody else). If you were to sell a photo of yourself playing golf at your country club to Newsweek for $100,000, you are not thereby an employee of Newsweek (and certainly not, by virtual if the photo sale, now an employee of your country club). You are simply a non-employee seller of an “intellectual property” item—your image.

If you have make a few appearances, as well—like the author of a book might at the behest of her publisher—you are going to be an “independent contractor,” not an employee. As an adjunct of her royalty arrangement, an author normally makes appearances at book signings arranged by her publisher; this does not make the author an employee of her book publisher.

Here’s what you need to understand: the whole point of NIL is to give third parties (boosters) the right to dump piles of cash on college football players without those players becoming the boosters’ (or anyone else’s) employees. And this sanitized form of booster cash bribes eliminates entirely the prospect of football players becoming University employees, as the Universities themselves aren’t paying a single penny of salary or compensation to the players. Under no logical scenario would students who receive third party, non-University royalty payments be considered University employees.

It is clear now that NIL, at least as far as the big money is concerned, isn’t about Fortune 500 companies buying up college football players’ brands. It is simply a way for boosters to legally launder millions of dollars in formerly secret bribes to top rated players. (And, possibly, to allow those boosters to deduct these bribes as business expenses).

I buy this, mostly.

Granted, the Tweet I posted about fans being able to buy college jerseys with players' names on the back and those players then getting a cut, is not this. And as someone else commented, this was the actual "vision" of NIL.

But yes, what you say here, either was the true "under the table" motivation, or was quickly taken over for that.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

I buy this, mostly.

Granted, the Tweet I posted about fans being able to buy college jerseys with players' names on the back and those players then getting a cut, is not this. And as someone else commented, this was the actual "vision" of NIL.

But yes, what you say here, either was the true "under the table" motivation, or was quickly taken over for that.

Agree totally with your last sentence. NIL might well originally (and naively) have been intended as a small marketplace for small payments to a few popular players. Because of it’s simplistic design (with no guardrails), however, it was almost immediately co-opted by big time boosters as a way to legitimize, and ramp up, formerly prohibited player bribes.

I sometimes wonder if the big bribes might backfire. How do you coach a kid who is getting a couple of million dollars from persons outside your program? Or maintain discipline on a team that has a cadre of such players? The best rated team money can buy might not be the best team in the end, because that money that big and uneven might undermine team unity and discipline. Just another soap opera to watch over the next few years.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Agree totally with your last sentence. NIL might well originally (and naively) have been intended as a small marketplace for small payments to a few popular players. Because of it’s simplistic design (with no guardrails), however, it was almost immediately co-opted by big time boosters as a way to legitimize, and ramp up, formerly prohibited player bribes.

I sometimes wonder if the big bribes might backfire. How do you coach a kid who is getting a couple of million dollars from persons outside your program? Or maintain discipline on a team that has a cadre of such players? The best rated team money can buy might not be the best team in the end, because that money that big and uneven might undermine team unity and discipline. Just another soap opera to watch over the next few years.

And how do you know who to "bribe" in the first place? Basically, who the coaching staff tells you to, since they want those players.

But you have no way of knowing if your "bribe" will end up paying off in any meaningful way. Just like recruiting services get it wrong all the time.


I imagine all it will take for some millionaire is to get burned one time. "I spent $200k on this kid, and he barely played and is in the portal now! I want something for my money!"

 

[upnorthkid]

it would be interesting if NIL money ever became "public". I'm sure that it will as an expose in the future, but based on comments by guys like Kiffin, would be intriguing to hear just how much money is truly being splashed across the board.

 

[Gophers_4life]

it would be interesting if NIL money ever became "public". I'm sure that it will as an expose in the future, but based on comments by guys like Kiffin, would be intriguing to hear just how much money is truly being splashed across the board.

I bet in the SEC, Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Texas, OU, Okla St, USC, Notre Dame ....... we might be shocked and/or saddened.

Well, we know T Boone Pickens spent like nine figures on Okla St, didn't he? Never got to see them play for a natty in his lifetime. They did come close that one year.

 

[#2Gopher]

I imagine all it will take for some millionaire is to get burned one time. "I spent $200k on this kid, and he barely played and is in the portal now! I want something for my money!"

Hadn't thought about this one.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

And how do you know who to "bribe" in the first place? Basically, who the coaching staff tells you to, since they want those players.

But you have no way of knowing if your "bribe" will end up paying off in any meaningful way. Just like recruiting services get it wrong all the time.


I imagine all it will take for some millionaire is to get burned one time. "I spent $200k on this kid, and he barely played and is in the portal now! I want something for my money!"

Certain college coaches, like at Texas A$M, are going to end up fighting a war on two fronts. Answering to ADs and season ticket holders, on one hand, and answering to big boosters who want return-on-investment on the other hand. Will the biggest boosters or money assemblers become behind-the-scene factors in deciding who starts, or in making playing time decisions? Will big boosters attempt to influence offensive and defensive schemes to better showcase their favorites? Will big boosters secure for their team a 5* prima donna that maybe the coach didn't actually want … a player who could be a locker room cancer? Seriously, it could be a soap opera at places like A$M that are the zenith of NIL bribe money.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Agree totally with your last sentence. NIL might well originally (and naively) have been intended as a small marketplace for small payments to a few popular players. Because of it’s simplistic design (with no guardrails), however, it was almost immediately co-opted by big time boosters as a way to legitimize, and ramp up, formerly prohibited player bribes.

I sometimes wonder if the big bribes might backfire. How do you coach a kid who is getting a couple of million dollars from persons outside your program? Or maintain discipline on a team that has a cadre of such players? The best rated team money can buy might not be the best team in the end, because that money that big and uneven might undermine team unity and discipline. Just another soap opera to watch over the next few years.

NIL will work as intended with the other sports, just not with the high profile ones like Football and Basketball where rampant cheating was already going on and there are boosters out there willing to shell out insane sums of money to secure players.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

If a player is getting royalty payments in return for giving a non-University third party the commercial right to exploit the player’s name, image and likeness, the player is not an “employee” of that third party (or the University or anybody else). If you were to sell a photo of yourself playing golf at your country club to Newsweek for $100,000, you are not thereby an employee of Newsweek (and certainly not, by virtual if the photo sale, now an employee of your country club). You are simply a non-employee seller of an “intellectual property” item—your image.

If you have make a few appearances, as well—like the author of a book might at the behest of her publisher—you are going to be an “independent contractor,” not an employee. As an adjunct of her royalty arrangement, an author normally makes appearances at book signings arranged by her publisher; this does not make the author an employee of her book publisher.

Here’s what you need to understand: the whole point of NIL is to give third parties (boosters) the right to dump piles of cash on college football players without those players becoming the boosters’ (or anyone else’s) employees. And this sanitized form of booster cash bribes eliminates entirely the prospect of football players becoming University employees, as the Universities themselves aren’t paying a single penny of salary or compensation to the players. Under no logical scenario would students who receive third party, non-University royalty payments be considered University employees.

It is clear now that NIL, at least as far as the big money is concerned, isn’t about Fortune 500 companies buying up college football players’ brands. It is simply a way for boosters to legally launder millions of dollars in formerly secret bribes to top rated players. (And, possibly, to allow those boosters to deduct these bribes as business expenses).

The original story post in this thread by “Ubbens” was discussing paying players directly, via contracts and so on. It was only tangential to player NIL, which I agree is totally different in legal terms and university ramifications more significantly.

The players aren’t going to to be happy with “only” scholarship, living costs, and NIL. The big pot of money is TV and gate revenue, merchandising. So, I predict this NIL “victory” will waterfall into more proposals to pay players and make them employees. Once granted employee status that opens up Pandora’s box even more.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

NIL will work as intended with the other sports, just not with the high profile ones like Football and Basketball where rampant cheating was already going on and there are boosters out there willing to shell out insane sums of money to secure players.

I‘ve still never seen proof of huge inducements outside of a few caught up in the basketball FBI sting and various anonymous statements. I think if something is decriminalized that generally leads to more of that activity. The problem in my mind regarding NCAA was poor enforcement, or spotty enforcement.

Without Biden administration-level proposals (since squashed) to see all inflows and outflows from bank accounts over $600 and an investigatory big brother apparatus set up to enforce sure, it would be tough to eliminate cheating and bribery in college football. It’s going to happen. It happens.

Perhaps a better route for compliance is the “snitch” route - tips leading to enforcement and convictions garner big rewards. For example, Medicare fraud whistleblowers garner 15% of the amount swindled which can be millions. That helps keep people in line.

 

[Dakota2]

No one is crying that the head coach is making 4-5 million or the assistant coaches are making considerable salaries. Place in a fund for each team and let the players split equally. The schools are making millions off TV contracts and games. What are most of the football players making after their college career? I have heard 2/3 of the professional players are bankrupt 3 years after their career is over. Coaches are suing the NFL for not having enough black coaches, you could make the same case saying there are not enough white players. It is all relative.

Students go to college to prepare themselves to earn a living. A tiny handful do it in professional sports, the rest in everyday life. Keep it that way.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Certain college coaches, like at Texas A$M, are going to end up fighting a war on two fronts. Answering to ADs and season ticket holders, on one hand, and answering to big boosters who want return-on-investment on the other hand. Will the biggest boosters or money assemblers become behind-the-scene factors in deciding who starts, or in making playing time decisions? Will big boosters attempt to influence offensive and defensive schemes to better showcase their favorites? Will big boosters secure for their team a 5* prima donna that maybe the coach didn't actually want … a player who could be a locker room cancer? Seriously, it could be a soap opera at places like A$M that are the zenith of NIL bribe money.

This makes me wonder a bit. Granted, not a perfect comparison by any means. But ...

why isn't the following a thing. As least, I've never heard of any such attempts.

Why aren't there deep-pockted fans of NFL teams that approach all-star free agents and say to them something like "if you sign small contracts to play for my team, I'll make up the difference for what you want personally"? If done with enough boosters, to enough players, you could basically bypass the salary cap to sign an all-star team.

But I've never heard of this even been attempted. Costs too much? Or are there rules forbidding the types of income that players can receive? But even still, why couldn't the fans just offer the very same NIL deals that we're talking about here for college, as a way around that?


It just boggles my mind a bit that we're talking about big schools with rich boosters spending probably millions of dollars to "buy" players via NIL deals, but that's not a thing in the NFL.


I guess the simple answer must be that $1M to a college kid makes his eye pop out of his head, but to an all-pro free-agent in the league that's peanuts.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

This makes me wonder a bit. Granted, not a perfect comparison by any means. But ...

why isn't the following a thing. As least, I've never heard of any such attempts.

Why aren't there deep-pockted fans of NFL teams that approach all-star free agents and say to them something like "if you sign small contracts to play for my team, I'll make up the difference for what you want personally"? If done with enough boosters, to enough players, you could basically bypass the salary cap to sign an all-star team.

But I've never heard of this even been attempted. Costs too much? Or are there rules forbidding the types of income that players can receive? But even still, why couldn't the fans just offer the very same NIL deals that we're talking about here for college, as a way around that?


It just boggles my mind a bit that we're talking about big schools with rich boosters spending probably millions of dollars to "buy" players via NIL deals, but that's not a thing in the NFL.


I guess the simple answer must be that $1M to a college kid makes his eye pop out of his head, but to an all-pro free-agent in the league that's peanuts.

Really good question. Wonder if such outside money in the NFL, if tied to signing or playing for a team (rather than just free money), would have to be disclosed and the money counted toward the salary cap. Could get the team in trouble for exceeding the salary cap. Otherwise, this would be a very easy way for teams in the largest, most prosperous markets (or in markets with a crazy, super rich fan) to evade the salary cap. Somehow I suspect the league has a way to ensure that such cap-busting side deals don't happen. There are some guardrails in place in the NFL to prevent salary cap evasion; no guardrails at this time in NIL payments.

 

[Some guy]

This makes me wonder a bit. Granted, not a perfect comparison by any means. But ...

why isn't the following a thing. As least, I've never heard of any such attempts.

Why aren't there deep-pockted fans of NFL teams that approach all-star free agents and say to them something like "if you sign small contracts to play for my team, I'll make up the difference for what you want personally"? If done with enough boosters, to enough players, you could basically bypass the salary cap to sign an all-star team.

But I've never heard of this even been attempted. Costs too much? Or are there rules forbidding the types of income that players can receive? But even still, why couldn't the fans just offer the very same NIL deals that we're talking about here for college, as a way around that?


It just boggles my mind a bit that we're talking about big schools with rich boosters spending probably millions of dollars to "buy" players via NIL deals, but that's not a thing in the NFL.


I guess the simple answer must be that $1M to a college kid makes his eye pop out of his head, but to an all-pro free-agent in the league that's peanuts.

This is definitely a thing indirectly and part of why Minnesota isn’t a huge free agent destination in any sport other than hockey. It’s also why a lot of guys try to get to large markets on the coasts

not a lot of examples of quid pro quo I could bring up. But when people talk about wanting to go to LA it isn’t because they love the traffic.