Twins/Vikings/Wild/Wolves Championship appearance drought tracker

tmvander

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Cleveland and Washington were the only ones in our vicinity. Cleveland broke it with LaBron back in 2015-16 or whenever it was. Washington broke it last year. We're #1 now by a lot as far as I know.
Good call on those 2 wouldn't have thought about them. Outside of Lebron didn't the Indians make the world series back in the mid 90's and lose once or twice? Also, I don't feel too bad for anyone in Ohio because they all have Ohio St to cheer for.
 

forever a gopher

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I'd say all of those places have had more success right? Just off the top of my head without research or hockey knowledge or checking for appearances...

Chicago - White Sox and Cubs world series, Blackhawks cup, Bulls 6 times
NYC - Yankees, Giants, Rangers cup
LA - Lakers, Kings cup?
Dallas - Cowboys (not super recent), Rangers WS losers twice I think, Stars (ouch)
Houston - Astros even with the *, Rockets in the 90s
Atlanta - Braves, Falcons SB losers
Philly - Phillies, Eagles
Boston - Tons
Phoenix - Suns lost to Bulls, Diamondbacks

Some aren't super recent as far as success but certainly more recent than us. Plus, all of these areas have a college team that has had WAY more success than the Gophers right in their backyard.
From this list of cities with all four major leagues, it seems Atlanta is the closest to us. Last title was the Braves in 1995. So that is roughly 100 combined seasons. At least the Falcons made the SB, which counts for something. Phoenix is next closest, with the Diamondbacks winning it in 2001, for roughly 76 combined seasons.

Left off the list that has all 4 majors:
DC
Detroit
Denver
Miami
SF/Bay Area

All have had semi-recent success.
 
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MplsGopher

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Thanks! I did indeed miss DC as a 4 pro sport market.

EDIT: jeez and in your own post I still missed that I had also missed Denver, Miami, and Bay Area (thought of the A's but somehow didn't think of the Sharks). Denver is probably about the same size market as Mpls, but definitely more success. Bay Area is obviously massive. Miami might be about the same size, but but probably a bit unique with all the Latin Americans and retirees. I did get Detroit in my original post though.
 
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MplsGopher

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From this list of cities with all four major leagues, it seems Atlanta is the closest to us. Last title was the Braves in 1995. So that is roughly 100 combined seasons. At least the Falcons made the SB, which counts for something. Phoenix is next closest, with the Diamondbacks winning it in 2001, for roughly 76 combined seasons.

DC is another city that has all 4 that was left out. Of course, they don't qualify with their success with the Caps and Nats.
The thread is even just considering making the championship game/series.
- Atlanta Falcons made Super Bowl LI in Feb2017.
- Arizona Cardinals made Super Bowl XLIII in Feb 2009.
 

howeda7

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Good call on those 2 wouldn't have thought about them. Outside of Lebron didn't the Indians make the world series back in the mid 90's and lose once or twice? Also, I don't feel too bad for anyone in Ohio because they all have Ohio St to cheer for.
I've always taken this thread to be the championship drought, not just appearances. I guess it's a distinction without a difference for our sad franchises. The Indians have made the World Series 3 times since 1995 but never won.
 


howeda7

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Cincinnati is far behind us because they have only two sports, but their last title was the Reds World Series win in 1990, and their last play-off round win was the Reds in 1995. The Bengals haven't won a play-off game since 1991. However, at least the Reds have won a play-off GAME since 2004.
 

coolhandgopher

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Maybe with exception of Detroit, Phx, and Boston, I think all of those markets are much larger than Mpls. And those three are probably still at least a bit larger than us.

We should really be more of a 2 or 3 pro sports town. We just happen to be a hockey state and so it makes perfect sense that we'd have an NHL team. Should probably be closer to a Pittsburgh or Cleveland, though.


The only one that would be realistic to "lose" would be the TWolves. And would losing them realistically help the other three win more? I guess I don't see how. Plus seems like fairly recent, major facility investments for all of them. Is what it is.
So, this piqued my curiosity and I did a very cursory search on where the Minneapolis/St. Paul market falls into place amongst its brethren of Big 4 sports towns. There are 13 metro areas that have pro teams in the four major sports (if you include Major League Soccer, there are 11, including Mpls/St. Paul).

The Twin Cities has the 15th largest media market in the U.S., with the following Big 4 cities are in the same neighborhood: Phoenix (13), Miami (16), and Denver (17). Boston and Detroit are #10 and 11, the rest are all in single digits.

Now, you could make strong arguments for why Phoenix and Miami have great advantages (weather, Florida's lack of income tax), although what's fascinating about comparing these cities with Minnesota is that three of the four teams have been consistently average to strong in the regular season over the last 20 years. (the T-Wolves are. . .well, let's avoid talk of them for now). To whit, here are the top 3 performing teams in the four markets since 2000-01, when the Wild debuted (MN, Phoenix, Miami, Denver) over the last twenty years:

MN
Wild: 3 seasons under .500; 10 playoff appearances, 4 series wins, one Conference Final appearance in '02-03)
Twins: 8 seasons under .500; 9 playoff appearances, 1 series win)
Vikings: 7 seasons under .500; 8 playoff appearances, 5 wins)
The T-Wolves have had 14 losing seasons in this time span, with 5 playoff appearances and 2 series wins, 1 Conference Final in '03-04

Arizona/Phoenix
Coyotes: 9 seasons under .500; 5 playoff appearances, one Conf. Final appearance, 2011-12)
Diamondbacks: 9 seasons under .500; 5 playoff appearances; WS win-2011, 5 series won)
Suns: 11 seasons under .500; 7 playoff appearances; 7 series won, 3 Conf. Finals)
* while the Cardinals were excluded because they were under .500 for 12 seasons, they have a Super Bowl appearance, and 5 wins over 4 seasons of playoff appearances in this time period

Miami
Heat: 5 seasons under .500; 13 playoff appearances; 6 championship appearances, 3 championships (assuming they lose against the Lakers)
Panthers: 9 seasons under .500; 3 playoff appearances
Dolphins: 11 seasons under .500; 3 playoff appearances
* while the Marlins were excluded because they under .500 for 15 seasons, they won the World Series in 2003 and have advanced further in this year's playoffs than the Twins

Denver
Broncos: 5 seasons under .500; 9 playoff appearances; 7 wins, 2 Super Bowls-win in '15, loss in '13
Avalanche: 4 seasons under .500; 11 playoff appearances; 11 series wins; won Stanley Cup in 2000
Nuggets: 7 seasons under .500; 12 playoff appearances; 5 series wins
* the Rockies have had 14 losing seasons, with 4 playoff appearances, including a World Series loss in 2007

So, what's the takeaway? Every one of our "peer cities" has hosted at least one parade in the last twenty years. If the name of the game is to put winning teams on the field/arena/rink, the MN teams outperform these cities overall, with the exception of Denver, a smaller metroplex without the benefit of year round summer. The Minnesota teams have not been able to push themselves to a championship round. Dumb luck? Mismanagement in the playoffs? Unwillingness to take risks that could pay off in a championship? Whatever the case, I don't think it can be blamed upon our market size. It can be done, as every peer city on this list has demonstrated.

(on a side note, I don't follow the Wild, but seeing the criticism that the Twins have deservedly garnered for playoff impotence, I have to imagine that fan base is similarly dissatisfied if not more so)
 

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@coolhandgopher Awesome. Post. !! Thank you for your research and sharing.

Several comments.

- according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_television_markets PHX is #11, Seattle #13, Mpls is #15, Miami #16, and Denver #17. Not sure if you used raw metro population numbers instead? Not a big deal.
- Denver and Seattle I think are the two best comparisons of markets in the "West". Mpls is west of the Mississippi, anyway. Seattle has a new expansion NHL team starting in 2021 to get back to 3 pro sports, and I would not be surprised if the Sonics return sooner than later. They're basically building Key Arena back from scratch -- interesting project in its own right. They kept the iconic roof, and ripped everything under it out. https://climatepledgearena.com/news-archive/re-connecting-and-rising-up
All three are medium-large, cold-weather markets, with a major university flagship in the market (though Colorado's is not right near downtown, as Seattle's and Mpls's are).

- I dare say that a Super Bowl championship is "worth more" than championships in the other three. In which case, the Broncos' success more than makes up for what you consider their relatively poorer (regular season) performance compared to our teams. Even before the recent SB appearance/win, they had the two SB wins in the late 90's, and had their own set of 4 SB appearances (with no wins) in the 70's/80's.
 

coolhandgopher

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@coolhandgopher Awesome. Post. !! Thank you for your research and sharing.

Several comments.

- according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_television_markets PHX is #11, Seattle #13, Mpls is #15, Miami #16, and Denver #17. Not sure if you used raw metro population numbers instead? Not a big deal.
- Denver and Seattle I think are the two best comparisons of markets in the "West". Mpls is west of the Mississippi, anyway. Seattle has a new expansion NHL team starting in 2021 to get back to 3 pro sports, and I would not be surprised if the Sonics return sooner than later. They're basically building Key Arena back from scratch -- interesting project in its own right. They kept the iconic roof, and ripped everything under it out. https://climatepledgearena.com/news-archive/re-connecting-and-rising-up
All three are medium-large, cold-weather markets, with a major university flagship in the market (though Colorado's is not right near downtown, as Seattle's and Mpls's are).

- I dare say that a Super Bowl championship is "worth more" than championships in the other three. In which case, the Broncos' success more than makes up for what you consider their relatively poorer (regular season) performance compared to our teams. Even before the recent SB appearance/win, they had the two SB wins in the late 90's, and had their own set of 4 SB appearances (with no wins) in the 70's/80's.
I went to Wikipedia as well, but searched "cities with 4 pro sports teams" and those numbers were presented.

As with you,I think Denver and Seattle are very apt comparisons with Detroit also in the ballpark. And I wasn't stating that Denver performed worse in regular seasons-I wanted to convey that they were the gold standard for overall sports excellence for mid-size cities. I really can't speak to any knowledge of Denver 's demographics and how they may contrast to the Twin Cities,but when you look at how the Broncos traditionally have been run and the management in place for the Nuggets, that seems the major influence to a franchise's chances for post-season success. Obvious statement,I know :).
 



MplsGopher

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I went to Wikipedia as well, but searched "cities with 4 pro sports teams" and those numbers were presented.

As with you,I think Denver and Seattle are very apt comparisons with Detroit also in the ballpark. And I wasn't stating that Denver performed worse in regular seasons-I wanted to convey that they were the gold standard for overall sports excellence for mid-size cities. I really can't speak to any knowledge of Denver 's demographics and how they may contrast to the Twin Cities,but when you look at how the Broncos traditionally have been run and the management in place for the Nuggets, that seems the major influence to a franchise's chances for post-season success. Obvious statement,I know :).
Ah, yes upon re-reading your post I think I misunderstood what you were saying about Denver.

Regardless, fun stuff to research, for me. 🤓


Detroit is a good comparison for another mid-large, cold weather market with the 4 major pro sports, certainly. And UMichigan is much closer to Detroit than I was thinking, only 40-ish miles or so. Not much farther than Boulder from Denver. They're the #14 media market according to the link I pasted above, right between Mpls and Seattle. Main difference is they're in the East.

Obviously the Lions are awful. Not sure on the Tigers, but I think the Pistons and especially Red Wings have had fairly consistent success.
 
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tmvander

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Ah, yes upon re-reading your post I think I misunderstood what you were saying about Denver.

Regardless, fun stuff to research, for me. 🤓


Detroit is a good comparison for another mid-large, cold weather market with the 4 major pro sports, certainly. And UMichigan is much closer to Detroit than I was thinking, only 40-ish miles or so. Not much farther than Boulder from Denver. They're the #14 media market according to the link I pasted above, right between Mpls and Seattle. Main difference is they're in the East.

Obviously the Lions are awful. Not sure on the Tigers, but I think the Pistons and especially Red Wings have had fairly consistent success.
Tigers have at least been to the World Series twice in the last decade or so but lost. Can't remember the last time they won though.
 


Ope3

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Cleveland and Washington were the only ones in our vicinity. Cleveland broke it with LaBron back in 2015-16 or whenever it was. Washington broke it last year. We're #1 now by a lot as far as I know.

Actually Washington's streak was barely a year old when the Nat's won last year. Ovechkin lead the Caps to the Stanley Cup over Vegas in 2018.
 
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Ope3

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I think it's 108.

Vikings 29 {1992 Super Bowl- 2020 Super Bowl}
Wolves 29 {1992-2020)
Twins 28 {1992-2019}
Wild 20 {2001-2020}
North Stars 2 {1992-93)

Total 108

Does 1994 count for the Twins? No World Series due to lock out, though there was a season played. Also 2005 shouldn't count for the Wild. No games played at all that year also due to labor strife.
 

howeda7

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Does 1994 count for the Twins? No World Series due to lock out, though there was a season played. Also 2005 shouldn't count for the Wild. No games played at all that year also due to labor strife.
hmm. Good point. Not that the 1994 Twins had any chance of winning a WS...
 

howeda7

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Actually Washington's streak was barely a year old when the Nat's won last year. Ovechkin has lead the Caps to the Stanley Cup over Vegas in 2018.
Ah, I forgot that.
 

Ope3

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The Tampa-St Pete/Orlando area has ended their Championship Series appearance drought at 1. It's been a long 19 days for those fans.
 

MplsGopher

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The Tampa-St Pete/Orlando area has ended their Championship Series appearance drought at 1. It's been a long 19 days for those fans.
No doubt.

When I think of Tampa/Orlando Florida, I think about ice hockey. And playing indoor baseball in the only domed stadium in MLB that has a fixed roof.

Figures.
 

Ope3

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No doubt.

When I think of Tampa/Orlando Florida, I think about ice hockey. And playing indoor baseball in the only domed stadium in MLB that has a fixed roof.

Figures.

Adding to that, perhaps the greatest QB in NFL history falls in their lap.
 

MplsGopher

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I guess if allowing to combine Tampa and Orlando, which is reasonable-ish to me, then that is another 4 pro sports "town", with the Magic.


Interesting how the NBA is in some markets that no other major pro sports are in. Not counting the NHL in Canadian markets in the same sense.
 

Ope3

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The Dodgers ended the Los Angeles Championship Series drought streak before it can even get started, going back-to-back with the Lakers.

It's been a long 168 hours for LA sports fans to endure.
 

tmvander

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I've mentioned this before (maybe earlier in this thread) but I truly wonder if i would be as devoted and hardcore about my sports teams if my teams constantly were winning championships. I feel like I'm always rooting for an underdog and therefore its like there is something to be gained.

If I was an LA fan, Boston fan, etc. would sports somehow get boring to watch? I'm sure there is less of a "feel good" when you have so much to celebrate. I don't know maybe I'm wrong and luckily will never ever ever know the answer to this.
 

MplsGopher

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I've mentioned this before (maybe earlier in this thread) but I truly wonder if i would be as devoted and hardcore about my sports teams if my teams constantly were winning championships. I feel like I'm always rooting for an underdog and therefore its like there is something to be gained.

If I was an LA fan, Boston fan, etc. would sports somehow get boring to watch? I'm sure there is less of a "feel good" when you have so much to celebrate. I don't know maybe I'm wrong and luckily will never ever ever know the answer to this.
Think about how NDSU football fans must feel. Or for that matter, Alabama or Clemson football fans.

There is no intrigue, nothing to risk. There is almost no chance that you'll ever lose a game.
 

tmvander

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Think about how NDSU football fans must feel. Or for that matter, Alabama or Clemson football fans.

There is no intrigue, nothing to risk. There is almost no chance that you'll ever lose a game.
I live in Fargo so I see the NDSU fans in full force. A lot of them enjoy that ride so I guess I can see fans of a successful team handle it. At the same time a lot of people leave the games at half time because its already 35-0.

Their situation is somewhat different too though because they have the crazies that can still look upward and say "man we could take on Alabama any year." So in a way they still have something to shoot for.
 

MplsGopher

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The Dodgers ended the Los Angeles Championship Series drought streak before it can even get started, going back-to-back with the Lakers.

It's been a long 168 hours for LA sports fans to endure.
LA has 7 pro sports teams (assuming you count the Angels, which now brand themselves as LA).

That isn't a fair comparison to a 4 pro sports team market.
 

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I live in Fargo so I see the NDSU fans in full force. A lot of them enjoy that ride so I guess I can see fans of a successful team handle it. At the same time a lot of people leave the games at half time because its already 35-0.

Their situation is somewhat different too though because they have the crazies that can still look upward and say "man we could take on Alabama any year." So in a way they still have something to shoot for.
There's also a very robust tailgating scene at the Fargodome. The games are an important social event in a small market with not much else going on.
 

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LA has 7 pro sports teams (assuming you count the Angels, which now brand themselves as LA).

That isn't a fair comparison to a 4 pro sports team market.

They actually have 8 now if you include the Anaheim franchises.

- Chargers
- Rams
- Dodgers
- Angels
- Clippers
- Lakers
- KIngs
- Ducks
 
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MplsGopher

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They actually have 8 now if you include the Anaheim franchises.

- Chargers
- Rams
- Dodgers
- Angles
- Clippers
- Lakers
- KIngs
- Ducks
Doh, I wrote 8 originally, but couldn't think of the Ducks. Maybe you can say the Angels and Ducks don't count for LA ... but still.

Although I think the methodology was to accumulate all the seasons of all the teams, so maybe it is fair.
 

Ope3

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Doh, I wrote 8 originally, but couldn't think of the Ducks. Maybe you can say the Angels and Ducks don't count for LA ... but still.

Although I think the methodology was to accumulate all the seasons of all the teams, so maybe it is fair.

True, the number of seasons would be the equalizer though they should happen twice as often in terms in calendar years.

Of course there is never a completely level playing field, ie Dodgers with a payroll north of $200 million and the Lakers being able to recruit LeBron and Davis.
 

MplsGopher

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Right, the value of endorsements in the LA/NYC markets should be much higher than in smaller markets.

Though a fair number of the NYC teams kinda suck right now. Some are good though.

But the thread methodology doesn't do any kind of running averaging over the teams in real time. Rather, it just lets each market off the hook as soon as any of their teams reaches the championship. That's fine.
 




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