Time to be honest with ourselves...

[Panthadad2]

Let's face it, this game (and Northwestern) are clear wins if not for lack of execution on seemingly innocuous plays in key moments. Winning football teams make the simple plays.

The IL game is iced if AK hits #87 on a short throw on 3rd down on the 2nd to last possession (people complaining about PJ going turtle late in the game should STFU because this was a great play that didn't work and stopped the clock) or runs north/south on 2nd down. Tyler's opening fumble (you literally couldn't pay the kid to fumble more), Crooms dropped TD and a couple other drops, missed blocks on a key 3rd and 1 late, and on. I won't comment on the secondary because I couldn't figure out WTF was going on there. There was just lack of execution in key moments.

This team is what it is. It has decent players, but routine plays often aren't made.

 

[BilldGopher]

Picking up from an earlier theme in the season I guess this is it from here...

 

[Panthadad2]

Picking up from an earlier theme in the season I guess this is it from here...

View attachment 28042

I think the theme will trend more towards apathy.

 

[BilldGopher]

I think the theme will trend more towards apathy.

Unfortunately I agree with you...

Still possible for a turnaround on the field but time is running out.

 

[Some guy]

Let's face it, this game (and Northwestern) are clear wins if not for lack of execution on seemingly innocuous plays in key moments. Winning football teams make the simple plays.

The IL game is iced if AK hits #87 on a short throw on 3rd down on the 2nd to last possession (people complaining about PJ going turtle late in the game should STFU because this was a great play that didn't work and stopped the clock) or runs north/south on 2nd down. Tyler's opening fumble (you literally couldn't pay the kid to fumble more), Crooms dropped TD and a couple other drops, missed blocks on a key 3rd and 1 late, and on. I won't comment on the secondary because I couldn't figure out WTF was going on there. There was just lack of execution in key moments.

This team is what it is. It has decent players, but routine plays often aren't made.

Yup. The issue today and against northwestern is that the team isn’t good enough.

 

[1983]

So after paying Fleck’s buyout who is the upgrade you’re planning to hire?

Exactly. It has been the questions every year it becomes apparent the the coach is not going to get us to a championship....at any level. We have set a precedent now with Flecks salary and should be able to attract a coach with potential the next go around. This off season needs to see some change lead by Fleck. Might be time to maybe come up with something other than "Row the boat", upgrade some assistants and maybe quit blaming the lack of NIL money. A reinvention which we all need at times. Those who Google the record and compare unfairly to pervious regimes need to get more honest with themselves concerning this program. Not much has changed in the 41 years I have had tickets, just the look of it.

 

[Some guy]

Exactly. It has been the questions every year it becomes apparent the the coach is not going to get us to a championship....at any level. We have set a precedent now with Flecks salary and should be able to attract a coach with potential the next go around. This off season needs to see some change lead by Fleck. Might be time to maybe come up with something other than "Row the boat", upgrade some assistants and maybe quit blaming the lack of NIL money. A reinvention which we all need at times. Those who Google the record and compare unfairly to pervious regimes need to get more honest with themselves concerning this program. Not much has changed in the 41 years I have had tickets, just the look of it.

Strongly disagree with this analysis

This is the healthiest the program has been since the 70s and it’s pretty obvious. Fleck has something to do with that.

Fleck may never get the team over the top to where people want to go. True.

If team got rid of fleck right now, the chances of an upgrade are probably less than 50% but more than 0%. It is a legitimate position to say we should risk it to try to get that upgrade. I’m not there yet. A couple of 6-6 or 7-5 seasons (one being this year) and I think he’s coaching for his job in 2025 though.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Let's be honest with ourselves, the offense looked good when AK was completing passes in the 1st half. The offense looked bad when he was missing easy throws in the 2nd half.

The problem is the QB. You can keep changing coordinators every year, but if you don't have a QB who can complete a pass at least 60% of the time, then not much is going to change.

 

[Some guy]

Let's be honest with ourselves, the offense looked good when AK was completing passes in the 1st half. The offense looked bad when he was missing easy throws in the 2nd half.

The problem is the QB. You can keep changing coordinators every year, but if you don't have a QB who can complete a pass at least 60% of the time, then not much is going to change.

There are losses I would put on coaches and scheme the last 7 years.
Yesterday was on execution.

Long term that’s on the coaches too. Need to have safeties that don’t blow coverages and miss tackles. Need QBs to hit the throws. Need WRs to catch touchdowns so you don’t settle for field goals. Need kick returners not to fumble. So this is also indirectly coaching because our guys didn’t make plays and we need to have better guys.

 

[Dakota2]

As most of us know, and as has often been observed here on Gopherhole, the U isn't going to fire Fleck for a (probable) 6-6 season after 11, 9, and 9 wins in three of the last four years.

I find Coach tiresome and disingenuous, and I get sick of his verbal self-flagellation after losses, but I wouldn't fire him either. One season of regression after several years of success isn't the basis for upending the program. For goodness sake, reading the comments on this board you would think we're Alabama or Ohio State. We aren't!

I'm persuaded that with a year of development the O-line will be far better next year, and despite criticism in the OP, Kaliakmanis will also be improved (or replaced) next year.

2023 isn't our year. Maybe 2024 will be.

This is not a season of regression. The team is fine. The head coach gave away two Big Ten wins changing the record from 7-2 to 5-4 at this moment.

 

[Some guy]

This is not a season of regression. The team is fine. The head coach gave away two Big Ten wins changing the record from 7-2 to 5-4 at this moment.

Replacing one of the top 5 all time QBs and all time top 5 RBs and the entire front end of the defense pretty much. Team should be 7-2 but is 5-4

That doesn’t get you fired anywhere except maybe 7-10 programs in the country

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Exactly. It has been the questions every year it becomes apparent the the coach is not going to get us to a championship....at any level. We have set a precedent now with Flecks salary and should be able to attract a coach with potential the next go around. This off season needs to see some change lead by Fleck. Might be time to maybe come up with something other than "Row the boat", upgrade some assistants and maybe quit blaming the lack of NIL money. A reinvention which we all need at times. Those who Google the record and compare unfairly to pervious regimes need to get more honest with themselves concerning this program. Not much has changed in the 41 years I have had tickets, just the look of it.

Agreed with most of this.

I dont think the buyout is the ONLY issue. I just want to know who others would want to hire. Top tier coaches aren’t leaving P5 jobs to come here. Is there an assistant at _______ who would? What about other P5 coaches from “less desirable” jobs? Or a G6 HC that would be a good get? I don’t know. But I don’t move on from PJ at this moment to go get the head coach from Utah Southern University of Provo or wherever. You need a better, can get, will commit candidate.

 

[Some guy]

Agreed with most of this.

I dont think the buyout is the ONLY issue. I just want to know who others would want to hire. Top tier coaches aren’t leaving P5 jobs to come here. Is there an assistant at _______ who would? What about other P5 coaches from “less desirable” jobs? Or a G6 HC that would be a good get? I don’t know. But I don’t move on from PJ at this moment to go get the head coach from Utah Southern University of Provo or wherever. You need a better, can get, will commit candidate.

PS

You would also be trying to bring in a coach to Minnesota with the candidates knowing you fired Fleck for going
11-2
3-4
9-4
9-4
Somewhere between 5-7 and 8-5 (9-4 if you upset Ohio state)

 

[DanvilleGopher]

I have to wonder if this ever gets asked by someone in the room during the weekly film/game planning staff meeting.

"Hey PJ, do you think we should be a little more aggressive in this spot? Would it help us be more successful within the structure of the game?"

The assistants must see these things over and over again and wonder.

That is truly a great question. Do the assistants and Fleck, truly dissect the game film (I hope to god they do and I'm pretty sure they do) with absolute detail? Do the assistants give Fleck their honest opinions about what should have been done? Did we do the right thing? What can be done in the future in this same situation? Perhaps Kirk C. wanted to be more aggressive and Fleck said no, we want the points, which he felt this time around would change. Who knows but this might be a reason we'll never get a strong OC, certainly an established OC. I have to think when Kirk C. decided to move on again, Fleck must have wanted to find an experienced OC? Maybe he did but just couldn't get someone who wanted to work with him, so he did what he did.

Seems like an obvious discussion to have while watching film with these before half situations, but they do the same thing at the end of each half where they could get a TD (at least in games that matter). They truly seem to be happy with points and taking the conservative route and not introducing risk and maximizing the situation.

He needs an established strong minded OC to lead this team as offensively, they have zero creativity and it seems like our development of offensive players (outside of lineman and RB's) is non-existent.

 

[Jack jones]

Agreed. Free Matt Simon. Or bring in somebody else. Maybe the OC at Montana or Kansas? Something needs to change.

One at Kansas is very impressive.

 

[rugger14]

I feel like we did in 2006. We were upset that Mase could not take us to the next level. Mase got fired and we brought in Brew. I am in PJ's corner. Not blindly.
Next year is going to get a lot harder. Have people seen our schedule? Bowl eligibility will be success and that might be where we are in the new B1G. Fringe bowl team. Are we seriously going to be better than Michigan, tOSU, PSU, USC, Oregon, and Washington in any given season? Even in our best year the odds of being better than all those teams is basically slim or none.

 

[Some guy]

I feel like we did in 2006. We were upset that Mase could not take us to the next level. Mase got fired and we brought in Brew. I am in PJ's corner. Not blindly.
Next year is going to get a lot harder. Have people seen our schedule? Bowl eligibility will be success and that might be where we are in the new B1G. Fringe bowl team. Are we seriously going to be better than Michigan, tOSU, PSU, USC, Oregon, and Washington in any given season? Even in our best year the odds of being better than all those teams is basically slim or none.

To me this feels more like 2004 or 2005 than it does 2006

2004-2005 I thought the team could win 9-10 games and compete for a title.
Went 7-5 and 7-5

2006 we pulled a bowl game out our ass by blocking a field goal to beat NDSU then going on a little tear rattling off wins over Indiana, Michigan state, and Iowa (who combined to go 6-18 in conference). Mason was going to get fired in the regular season. Then saved his job. And then reminded everyone why he was going to get fired in the regular season in the bowl game.

They shouldn’t have made the move. They should’ve waited another year when the decided not to pull the trigger in the regular season.


The next two years we will learn a lot.
Is 11-2, 9-4, 9-4 the norm. Or is the second recruiting cycle going to settle into 6-7 win seasons (or worse).

 

[rugger14]

To me this feels more like 2004 or 2005 than it does 2006

2004-2005 I thought the team could win 9-10 games and compete for a title.
Went 7-5 and 7-5

2006 we pulled a bowl game out our ass by blocking a field goal to beat NDSU then going on a little tear rattling off wins over Indiana, Michigan state, and Iowa (who combined to go 6-18 in conference). Mason was going to get fired in the regular season. Then saved his job. And then reminded everyone why he was going to get fired in the regular season in the bowl game.

They shouldn’t have made the move. They should’ve waited another year when the decided not to pull the trigger in the regular season.


The next two years we will learn a lot.
Is 11-2, 9-4, 9-4 the norm. Or is the second recruiting cycle going to settle into 6-7 win seasons (or worse).

I didn't have very high hopes for this team so I see it more like 2006. Either way, moving forward in the new B1G, 9 win seasons just got a lot more difficult.

 

[disco]

Open the pocketbook for Urban Meyer and let him do whatever he wants to put a winning team on the field.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

BTW - speaking of coaches willing to make changes (or getting desperate)

USC just canned its Defensive Coordinator.

 

[Some guy]

I didn't have very high hopes for this team so I see it more like 2006. Either way, moving forward in the new B1G, 9 win seasons just got a lot more difficult.

I don’t think it got a lot more difficult to win 9
I think it got a little more difficult.

At the end of the day to win 9 games in a regular season you have to not drop any games to bad or average teams. If you do, you have to make up for it by beating a good team.

Right now the gophers have dropped 2 games to average teams and have 0 wins against good teams.

Next year the team plays
North Carolina - I think average next year
Rhode Island - FCS
Nevada - bad
Iowa - average
Michigan - good
USC - good
UCLA - average
Maryland - average
Illinois - average
Rutgers - average
Penn state - good
Wisconsin - average


Maybe I’m wrong and people are better than I think.
It’s a little harder than this year, but not a ton harder.

 

[Some guy]

BTW - speaking of coaches willing to make changes (or getting desperate)

USC just canned its Defensive Coordinator.

Rumor is Michigan’s punishment from the ncaa is going to have Grinch and Brian Ferentz for the next 4 years as their two coordinators (I stole this from somewhere on the internet)

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

Honestly, many of us expected there would be seasons like this and accept it as a trade off for occasional 10-11 win seasons or possibly more sprinkled in. Let's see how the program responds the next couple of seasons before calling for the coaches head on a spike!

 

[kg21]

Let's be honest with ourselves, the offense looked good when AK was completing passes in the 1st half. The offense looked bad when he was missing easy throws in the 2nd half.

The problem is the QB. You can keep changing coordinators every year, but if you don't have a QB who can complete a pass at least 60% of the time, then not much is going to change.

PFF grades all of the players who play in the game. 14 players were graded in this game on offense. AK was number 1 and Daniel Jackson was number 2. The offensive line graded out last. Greg Johnson was 14 of the 14 graded. The offensive line blew for a good share of the game. We just don't have the talent on offense. And yes, AK missing that throw and not running for the first down was brutal.

 

[rugger14]

I don’t think it got a lot more difficult to win 9
I think it got a little more difficult.

At the end of the day to win 9 games in a regular season you have to not drop any games to bad or average teams. If you do, you have to make up for it by beating a good team.

Right now the gophers have dropped 2 games to average teams and have 0 wins against good teams.

Next year the team plays
North Carolina - I think average next year
Rhode Island - FCS
Nevada - bad
Iowa - average
Michigan - good
USC - good
UCLA - average
Maryland - average
Illinois - average
Rutgers - average
Penn state - good
Wisconsin - average


Maybe I’m wrong and people are better than I think.
It’s a little harder than this year, but not a ton harder.

We are an average team so we are likely to split with the other average teams. That puts us at 6-6 next year as a starting point if we go 4-3 against average teams based off your ratings of the teams. That is if we beat the bad teams and lose to the good teams.

 

[MplsGopher]

Yes, SG. People are better than you think.

You drastically underestimate teams -- I think dishonestly, if I'm being honest, and you do it for the effect of provoking arguments.

You didn't think NW would win a game before we played them. Then when I brought up "why do people think this team is so bad" and laid out the facts, you were like "oh well gosh, yeah maybe they are better than I thought and everyone in the West is mediocre". Which is correct

 

[Gold Rush]

I agree with many on here that say PJ Fleck will remain here as long as he wants - he has a pretty good thing going here. A few things really bother me:

- Returning punts and kickoffs is a very basic play in football. They can really change the game or electrify the entire team when someone has a great return. Minnesota has the absolute worst return I have ever seen - anywhere. They don't even bother to return most punts even if no one is within 10 yards and you get the fair catch. This is ridiculous. Then when you finally decide to return a kick, the guy who has fumbled like 15 times botches yet another one. This is not a difficult play for most teams but for some reason, we are REALLY bad at this.

- Tyler should not see the field the rest of the year unless there are injuries.
- Fleck needs to get at least one QB in the transfer portal. I bet most fans do not realize last year there were 6 former 5 stars, 14 former top 100 recruits and a whopping 39 QB's in the portal. I am not saying AK needs to be replaced, but he needs some competition and we need an alternative in case he is not playing well. I feel this is crucial for next year.

- This year will go down as a promising year that was thrown away by not one but two losses that should not have happened. Inexcusable.

- The Gopher offense needs a lot of work. This is not even close to the 2019 version.

- Purdue becomes the most important game on the schedule. If the Gophers can win that one, they can make a bowl game, but it will be a minor one and deservedly so.

- It only gets tougher next year. The Gophers should not schedule anymore tough non conference teams as their conference schedule is now going to be one land mine after another.

 

[MplsGopher]

@GopherWeatherGuy then how do you square that with Morgan's drop off from 2019 to 2021 (I don't count covid ... but we saw the train coming that year as well) ???

Oh wait, I know how the story goes: we lost Tyler Johnson after 2019, and he was the sole reason Bateman ever did anything that year, then lost Batemen for 2021 and Morgan had no one to throw to.

Of course. I recall these round-n-round arguments from back then.

Always can find something else to blame.

 

[Some guy]

We are an average team so we are likely to split with the other average teams. That puts us at 6-6 next year as a starting point if we go 4-3 against average teams based off your ratings of the teams. That is if we beat the bad teams and lose to the good teams.

And that’s not that different than this year. Is the point

 

[Some guy]

Yes, SG. People are better than you think.

You drastically underestimate teams -- I think dishonestly, if I'm being honest, and you do it for the effect of provoking arguments.

You didn't think NW would win a game before we played them. Then when I brought up "why do people think this team is so bad" and laid out the facts, you were like "oh well gosh, yeah maybe they are better than I thought and everyone in the West is mediocre". Which is correct

Northwestern is way better than I thought this year, yes. Which also lends itself to the argument that next year isn’t that different than this year


There are more easy wins on the schedule next year (2 - Rhode Island and Nevada) than there are this year (0, I think eastern Mich finishes 6-6 in a bowl and Louisiana is a bowl team…Purdue is a 6-6 kind of team with certain schedules but plays one of the more insane schedules I’ve ever seen)