Time to be honest with ourselves...

[Donovan]

I like the Kansas coach - Just to fuel the fire here.

I wish. Unfortunately, he is going to be taking a better job than ours if he leaves Kansas. I’m sure there are good current coaches out there to look at, however, a former coach that I would find interesting is Dan Mullen.

But knowing PJ isn’t going anywhere, the idea of spending the money for a good OC is appealing. I understand the fact of PJ’s meddling would be a negative to a prospect. Maybe they give PJ one veto per half on the OC’s play calling. You’d think enough games like today, PJ would finally say, “okay, I get it, I have to make a change on my game management.”

 

[GoGophersUMN]

If I’m Coyle and I like what Fleck does for the program and University, I sit him down and say you’re done with any significant raises and we’re investing in an OC and his offense.

Fleck is a CEO and needs to change his best. Time for him to get someone to lead the offense. Fleck can still have a great culture and recruit the hell out if it.

Completely agree. Fleck is making 30% more this year than 2020, not counting his pay reduction due to the pandemic. Is he doing is job 30% better? By pretty much every metric 2019 was better than 2022, and 2023 doesn't look any better. Obviously the record was much better in 2019. Attendance was better in 2019. The fan base was much more energized in 2019. Recruiting improved slightly from 46th to 45th. 19 players transfered out between 2022 and 2023 and 11 did between 2019 and 2020.

To give him some credit alumni seem to be more involved, although that's not surprising as the alumni start becoming his recruits. He also has the potential to take a big step forward in rivalry trophies with a win in 3 weeks.

Raises should be tied to improvements in those or other key areas. More money should be invested into assistant coaches so we can afford to hire top talent. Fleck needs to learn to trust that top talent and not push them to play so conservatively.

 

[skiumah1]

I wish. Unfortunately, he is going to be taking a better job than ours if he leaves Kansas. I’m sure there are good current coaches out there to look at, however, a former coach that I would find interesting is Dan Mullen.

But knowing PJ isn’t going anywhere, the idea of spending the money for a good OC is appealing. I understand the fact of PJ’s meddling would be a negative to a prospect. Maybe they give PJ one veto per half on the OC’s play calling. You’d think enough games like today, PJ would finally say, “okay, I get it, I have to make a change on my game management.”

Just seems like a conversation we’ve had over and over. I don’t see him changing. He went back to an old OC who chose to leave the program and then that OC went ahead and left the program again.

PJ needs to change, I just don’t see it happening.

 

[Some guy]

Just seems like a conversation we’ve had over and over. I don’t see him changing. He went back to an old OC who chose to leave the program and then that OC went ahead and left the program again.

PJ needs to change, I just don’t see it happening.

I think this is correct.

And so the question is do you fire him or ride with him and hope for another run

I’m giving him through 2025

 

[PMWinSTP]

Fleck has taken us to another level. Our recruiting has dramatically improved and winning 9 games a season would have been a dream to us back in 2009. However, today was another example of how we have platued as a program. I am not saying that we are ever going to be a national championship contender, but I do believe that we can be a consistant top 25 team with the occasional NY6 bowl game berth, similar to what Wisconsin and Iowa have been the last 15 years. Fleck continues to blow winnable games with his overly conservative play calling and lack of development of offensive players. How many offensive skill players have actually progressed during their time as a Gopher under Fleck? Tanner regressed, CRAB regressed, BSF regressed, Athan has regressed, just to name a few. Despite on paper having the most talented offense we have ever had (6 4-stars who start) our offense does not even rank within the top 100 scoring or total offense in the entire NCAA. With the new Big Ten coming we need a change to be able to compete. But what is that change? Personally I think it is time to move on from Fleck. I am not a Fleck hater, I have defended him the past couple years, but he has not learned or progessed himself the past few years. He continues to make the same mistakes he always has and is stuck in his ways. It would be different if he learned from his mistakes, but that hasn't happened yet. I do think Fleck has all the potential in the world, but I doubt he'll ever realize that potential at Minnesota.

*edited to fix grammatical error*

Has he?

 

[Donovan]

Just seems like a conversation we’ve had over and over. I don’t see him changing. He went back to an old OC who chose to leave the program and then that OC went ahead and left the program again.

PJ needs to change, I just don’t see it happening.

We need Jim Tressel to call him and say, “PJ, I really am honored that you are trying to emulate my coaching style, but I’m going to recommend that you move on from this. If you had the talent I had at Ohio State you could probably make it work. You are never going to have that talent level.”

 

[PMWinSTP]

I think this is correct.

And so the question is do you fire him or ride with him and hope for another run

I’m giving him through 2025

I think he needs to have a pretty good 2024 to be here in 2025.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Completely agree. Fleck is making 30% more this year than 2020, not counting his pay reduction due to the pandemic. Is he doing is job 30% better? By pretty much every metric 2019 was better than 2022, and 2023 doesn't look any better. Obviously the record was much better in 2019. Attendance was better in 2019. The fan base was much more energized in 2019. Recruiting improved slightly from 46th to 45th. 19 players transfered out between 2022 and 2023 and 11 did between 2019 and 2020.

To give him some credit alumni seem to be more involved, although that's not surprising as the alumni start becoming his recruits. He also has the potential to take a big step forward in rivalry trophies with a win in 3 weeks.

Raises should be tied to improvements in those or other key areas. More money should be invested into assistant coaches so we can afford to hire top talent. Fleck needs to learn to trust that top talent and not push them to play so conservatively.

I believe he is the 15th highest paid HC in college football.

 

[btowngopher]

I would argue that without Fleck we’d be ranked even worse than 12th. Regardless, I also know that Fleck isn’t going anywhere for the next year, but the point of the post was that we have plateaued as a program and we won’t take the next step until we move on from Fleck.

9-4 pretty regularly with an occasional 11 win season is a pretty damn good plateau for this program. Better than anyone else has done, yet we’re eager to move on? Do people really think someone can consistently win like 10+ games a year here?

 

[Roland Brooks]

Win the West outright!

 

[Gopherchase]

Here is my belief with this thought process AND a reason it has NOT happened, the hiring of a solid OC.

Fleck has said this many times and I firmly believe it, but people think it's only for players wanting to play for him, but I think it's for coaches as well.

FLECK IS NOT FOR EVERYONE

I don't think a big time coach wants to coach under Fleck due to his control of not only their play calling, but their philosophies and how aggressive they can be. I don't think these guys have FULL control of what they do. Fleck is a CEO but he's a hands on CEO.

I don't think Fleck is able to hire a solid OC just because of the way he is. Obviously just my opinion but what the guy demands of his players, you can bet he's demanding much of the same from his staff. Why do you think Kirk C. left, came back, and then left again after a year.

I wanted to yell at the TV today when they played for the FG right before half again versus trying to get a TD. I thought at the time, here we go again and they will more than likely need these points later...

I’m not gonna take the time to count it all up but in the seven years I think Fleck has had something like 25 coaching changes on his staff. I could be off a little but it’s something like that. Our current staff, especially the OC is a joke. He was an analyst three years ago.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

1st - Fleck will coach at MN as long as he wants - or as long as Coyle is the AD. Coyle will never fire Fleck unless the Gophers have a Michigan or Michigan State-level scandal.

2nd - I'm 68 years old. I remember Gopher teams that were competitive under other coaches. Fleck is not the only coach in the world who can be successful at MN. for all the complaining people did about Glen Mason, the Gophers were competitive under Mason and had really good offenses.

3rd - in the era of the Portal and NIL, IF you want Fleck gone, the #1 requirement for a new coach should be someone who can bring in big-buck donors to fund NIL at a higher level. You want better athletes - well, they cost money. Money that MN is not currently able to provide.

 

[haef7]

Losing because you get outmanned, or just outplayed by a better team is fine with me.

Losing because of your coaching style drives me fucking insane. Especially when it's over and over and over to average to awful teams.

This entire staff is pathetic.

I'll say it, when you spend more time coming up with acronyms rather than a good gameplan, this is the result.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I’m not sure PJ will ever change, but if he ever does the only way he’ll modify his approach is after sufficient criticism. Same as any of us.

This is a rough year. But, it feels like real success isn’t that far away. The offense…maybe needs a consultant or two. Maybe Coyle needs to sit down with PJ. Division of powers and responsibilities. Let coordinators coordinate.

 

[everybody knows my name]

Fleck has taken us to another level. Our recruiting has dramatically improved and winning 9 games a season would have been a dream to us back in 2009. However, today was another example of how we have platued as a program. I am not saying that we are ever going to be a national championship contender, but I do believe that we can be a consistant top 25 team with the occasional NY6 bowl game berth, similar to what Wisconsin and Iowa have been the last 15 years. Fleck continues to blow winnable games with his overly conservative play calling and lack of development of offensive players. How many offensive skill players have actually progressed during their time as a Gopher under Fleck? Tanner regressed, CRAB regressed, BSF regressed, Athan has regressed, just to name a few. Despite on paper having the most talented offense we have ever had (6 4-stars who start) our offense does not even rank within the top 100 scoring or total offense in the entire NCAA. With the new Big Ten coming we need a change to be able to compete. But what is that change? Personally I think it is time to move on from Fleck. I am not a Fleck hater, I have defended him the past couple years, but he has not learned or progessed himself the past few years. He continues to make the same mistakes he always has and is stuck in his ways. It would be different if he learned from his mistakes, but that hasn't happened yet. I do think Fleck has all the potential in the world, but I doubt he'll ever realize that potential at Minnesota.

*edited to fix grammatical error*

As most of us know, and as has often been observed here on Gopherhole, the U isn't going to fire Fleck for a (probable) 6-6 season after 11, 9, and 9 wins in three of the last four years.

I find Coach tiresome and disingenuous, and I get sick of his verbal self-flagellation after losses, but I wouldn't fire him either. One season of regression after several years of success isn't the basis for upending the program. For goodness sake, reading the comments on this board you would think we're Alabama or Ohio State. We aren't!

I'm persuaded that with a year of development the O-line will be far better next year, and despite criticism in the OP, Kaliakmanis will also be improved (or replaced) next year.

2023 isn't our year. Maybe 2024 will be.

 

[Stan]

You should go to literally any message board of a team that is perceived higher in the national pecking order than us. People have no idea how tame our fan base is compared to most.

Go Gophers!!

100% this.

 

[Unregistered User]

Has he?

Don’t be willfully obtuse.

 

[Nax5]

9-4 pretty regularly with an occasional 11 win season is a pretty damn good plateau for this program. Better than anyone else has done, yet we’re eager to move on? Do people really think someone can consistently win like 10+ games a year here?

The wins have become a vanity metric now. He wins more but not when it counts. Let's the West slip away year after year.

I'm personally not ready to move on. But it's sure damn tough to be so close and never get the job done.

 

[Some guy]

I think he needs to have a pretty good 2024 to be here in 2025.

What does that mean?
He is gone if they go 7-5 next year?

 

[MplsGopher]

Are there people here who actually think the Kansas coach would come here? Just because he's from Wisc?

I mean, I guess Mason did. So that is similar, even though it's 30 years apart.

Leipold has KU football on a very upward trajectory. 2-10, 6-7, now 7-2 after beating OU. Sure, it could easily fizzle out, like the hype cycle for Campbell at Iowa State. We'll see. But for now it's just tough to think he'd be interested in coming here.

 

[btowngopher]

The wins have become a vanity metric now. He wins more but not when it counts. Let's the West slip away year after year.

I'm personally not ready to move on. But it's sure damn tough to be so close and never get the job done.

It’s a lot more tough to never be close. What’s the goal going to be going forward with the West gone after this year?

 

[btowngopher]

Are there people here who actually think the Kansas coach would come here? Just because he's from Wisc?

I mean, I guess Mason did. So that is similar, even though it's 30 years apart.

Leipold has KU football on a very upward trajectory. 2-10, 6-7, now 7-2 after beating OU. Sure, it could easily fizzle out, like the hype cycle for Campbell at Iowa State. We'll see. But for now it's just tough to think he'd be interested in coming here.

KU looks like a hell of a job. Big12 is getting easier, low expectations, should have plenty of money.

 

[MplsGopher]

Yeah .. that's the problem.

This year, for example, everyone had shall we say "very darkly penciled" losses for the Gophers to Mich and Ohio State the moment the schedule came out. But that's still a very reasonable 7-2 ceiling on conf record, and with a division championship still attainable.

In the new Big Ten, that could easily jump up to 4-5 games per year! Against teams that will be preseason top 15 and could easily stay there all year.

That's a 5-4 or 4-5 ceiling on conf record. And that's before you talk about blowing games against NW, Illinois, ...

Let alone having "nothing to play for", conference wise. Other than beating Iowa and Wisc, of course.

 

[FanSinceTheFifties]

Only two problems with your assessment:

The program talent level in 2023 has the Gophers at 12th in the Big 10 the same as it was in 2017.

Fleck isn't going anywhere unless Coyle pulls the coils out from under the turf and takes his "talents" elsewhere OR a real scandal comes to light.

Fleck is the same coach today he was 7 years ago, and that is not a very good coach.

He seems to be a good person. He seems to have a strong belief in his philosophy and getting kids to buy into it.

2019 was a mirage, but that doesn't change the fact it happened. He had one of the best records a Minnesota coach has ever had.

If you look at what happened to get him there, the current results aren't a surprise except this time the back-up QB carried the other team forward vs cratered.

"The program talent level in 2023 has the Gophers at 12th in the Big 10 the same as it was in 2017." Right, and no one wants to recognize why that's true and has been generally since the 60s.

 

[leib0039]

We have absolutely plateuaed, and I don't think our offensive play calling is great. BUT much like the Vikings, I believe our issue is essentially tied to QB. In 2023 you can't be great unless your QB is a difference maker. A few examples, Belicheck might go down as the best coach ever, loses Brady turns out his team's are bad. Dabo Swinney has top 5 picks wins titles, doesn't he's 4-4.

If PJ refuses to go to the portal for a QB and won't admit that he whiffed on AK then we are cooked. Plain and simple. Other things like play calling are minor to having that guy at QB. It's the most important position in sports and it's not close.

 

[WHB Brewer]

Fleck has taken us to another level. Our recruiting has dramatically improved and winning 9 games a season would have been a dream to us back in 2009. However, today was another example of how we have platued as a program. I am not saying that we are ever going to be a national championship contender, but I do believe that we can be a consistant top 25 team with the occasional NY6 bowl game berth, similar to what Wisconsin and Iowa have been the last 15 years. Fleck continues to blow winnable games with his overly conservative play calling and lack of development of offensive players. How many offensive skill players have actually progressed during their time as a Gopher under Fleck? Tanner regressed, CRAB regressed, BSF regressed, Athan has regressed, just to name a few. Despite on paper having the most talented offense we have ever had (6 4-stars who start) our offense does not even rank within the top 100 scoring or total offense in the entire NCAA. With the new Big Ten coming we need a change to be able to compete. But what is that change? Personally I think it is time to move on from Fleck. I am not a Fleck hater, I have defended him the past couple years, but he has not learned or progessed himself the past few years. He continues to make the same mistakes he always has and is stuck in his ways. It would be different if he learned from his mistakes, but that hasn't happened yet. I do think Fleck has all the potential in the world, but I doubt he'll ever realize that potential at Minnesota.

*edited to fix grammatical error*

While I have gotten over my disdain for fleck-ball, my issue continues to see us get beat by plays that we can not-execute.
example 1 the swing pas 50yd TD. we never run anything simple like an RB must be run into the grounduntil broken down
example 2 we got beat by a BACKUP! QB throwing to WIDE OPEN receivers. our passi consists of 50/50 balls that we breathe a sigh of relief when caught. I watch a lot of college football and rarely see teams struggle with the forward pass like we do.

 

[BilldGopher]

Are there people here who actually think the Kansas coach would come here? Just because he's from Wisc?

I mean, I guess Mason did. So that is similar, even though it's 30 years apart.

Leipold has KU football on a very upward trajectory. 2-10, 6-7, now 7-2 after beating OU. Sure, it could easily fizzle out, like the hype cycle for Campbell at Iowa State. We'll see. But for now it's just tough to think he'd be interested in coming here.

Recall the year before he came here that Mason was Georgia's new coach for one week then backed out. This was after a national search that landed on him.

Certainly might be on his list of "what would you do different?" decisions over this life as a coach. If successful, he might have finally gotten his coveted OH-IO State gig.

 

[MplsGopher]

I think he wants to see what he can do at KU.

With no Texas and OU next year, if they can keep getting more talent to come in ... it's not crazy to think that they can be like this year's Washington, last year's TCU.

 

[Some guy]

Yeah .. that's the problem.

This year, for example, everyone had shall we say "very darkly penciled" losses for the Gophers to Mich and Ohio State the moment the schedule came out. But that's still a very reasonable 7-2 ceiling on conf record, and with a division championship still attainable.

In the new Big Ten, that could easily jump up to 4-5 games per year! Against teams that will be preseason top 15 and could easily stay there all year.

That's a 5-4 or 4-5 ceiling on conf record. And that's before you talk about blowing games against NW, Illinois, ...

Let alone having "nothing to play for", conference wise. Other than beating Iowa and Wisc, of course.

It’s true. If you pencil in losses to UCLA, Michigan state, wisconsin, Iowa, illinois, penn state, Michigan, Ohio state, UsC

All of a sudden the ceiling is 0-9!

 

[MplsGopher]

2024 it's 3 losses, USC, Mich, and Penn State. So 6-3 ceiling.

Correct