beavergopher
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Well said. Now watch Joel sign him to an extension so we can pay him even more when we can him.
Time for Tubby to Go
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Well said. Now watch Joel sign him to an extension so we can pay him even more when we can him.
Well, how is this for an example. I head over to the MSU board and decide I am going to start bashing Tom Izzo for never signing a 4 or 5 star recruit. And I think he is a terrible recruiter because of it and he should be fired.
Think anyone would point out that Izzo has, in fact, signed multiple 4 or 5 star recruits? Sorry if you don't think facts should get in the way of hyperbole and unreasonable hatred. Maybe I'll start saying gopheraschells should be banned because he steals from Target daily and eats kittens ... and now, don't you dare question the merit of that statement!
ruppertflywheel
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That is probably one of the most thoughtless reponses on the basketball board this year. Maturi made a mistake, and Williams walked away with a million plus.
Jeez, open mouth and insert foot. I would suggest son you check Eric's background.
It has nothing to do with his background. But Maturi and the higher-ups are clearly still very paranoid about any whiff of scandal. Hiring the son of the coach who was the center of one is bad enough optics when you're that gun shy.
I personally could care less about that fact, but I don't see the U going there. I'm not big on Mussleman as a hire because of his lack of college coaching experience.
The kentucky program has only gotten better since Tubby left. They were 9-7 in the SEC his last two years without a top 150 recruit the last year. When was KY 9-7 in the SEC prior to Tubby getting there? Spend more of your time knocking Wolters and talking about Nolen like he was an all-american. Even those takes were better than this one.
ruppertflywheel
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gopheraschells
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What did that have anything to do with my previous statement? Tom Izzo is successful with his team, Tom Izzo teams are good shooting teams and are a good free-throw shooting team. Their half court offense also has motion in it, and doesn't wait for the final seconds of the shot clock to actually make a move to the hoop. None of that has anything at all to do with recruiting 4 and 5 *. You can recruit shooters and good free-throw shooters anywhere, you can coach any team to move without the ball. Tubby somehow has managed to do none of this at Minnesota , but yet somehow he is still regarded as a good coach.
bleedsmaroonandgold
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My initial point was going to be that Kentucky got worse after Tubby got his recruits in place. I was pissed about the loss, and you are right, he still had a comparable but worse record after Pitino's recruits were gone. But isn't that a big problem? Coach's should do much better once they have players they picked to match their system rather than trying to fit players picked for a different system into their system.
gopheraschells said:
My point is when someone makes a claim that is clearly not factual I will look to correct it. In a different thread, someone said the difference between tubby and pitino is that ricks team are elite three point shooting teams while tubbys are awful from 3. That is not a factual statement as both have pretty much the exact 3 point percentage for their teams over the past 10 years, and over the past 4 tubbys teams are actually better.
Someone can have any opinion they want, but to claim something as fact that isn't, I'm going to try and correct.
If someone came in and said tubby is the greatest ever because he has a better big 10 winning percentage than izzo, well feel free to think tubby is the greatest ever, but the fact behind it isn't true.
Normally that might be true. But the 1996 Kentucky team was the best college basketball team in the last 25 years, IMO and 1997 was great too. That Tubby won a title with that group and then declined slightly is hardly a shock or a mark on his coaching ability.
Hard to believe the excuses made for Tubby on this thread. Larry Coker went undefeated with another coaches team and won a National Championship. So what? Miami won, but not at the same pace. He was fired and nobody wants him. Dennis Erickson won a National Championship. He was fired. Just look at this roster after almost 5 years and you tell me this man has helped this program? Out recruited by Bo Ryan, Buzz Willimas, Fran McCaffery and Fred Hoiberg.
matt
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Now for a rational thought... What I think will happen:
The Gophers will hire a competent AD this summer who has better (read: any) vision than Joel and will hopefully get the ball rolling on the practice facility. Tubby finishes his contract in 2013-2014, so he will have two seasons after this year. Barring an exceptional season or Tubby landing Tyus Jones and Rashad Vaughn, I think Tubby announces his retirement with the understanding that Minnesota does not want to extend him. This will allow Minnesota to begin looking for a new coach while Tubby is still with us and HOPEFULLY we will have a practice facility by that time. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a practice facility within 2 and a half years. This would allow a new coach to walk in to a better situation here at Minnesota.
Currently, Minnesota isn't in any position to fire a mediocre coach after only 5 years. Dan Monson gave us 8 years of poor-mediocre basketball and we fired him. Why in the HELL would we fire Tubby Smith after 5 years of mediocre basketball? We would not be able to land any decent coach if they thought they would get fired after 5 years of mediocre basketball at a school that will pay them a normal salary without quality facilities. The best Minnesota fans could hope for is Tubby to coach out the rest of his contract. I think that the timing of Joel leaving and Tubby's contract is pretty good in that it will allow a new AD to come in and hopefully get the practice facility started before a new coach comes in. I have confidence in President Kaler to make a good hire at Athletic Director who will get the program moving in the right direction for the next head coach.
I have only recently come to realize how important the practice facility is for the program. As scher has said, the practice facility is a must when it comes to recruiting. Why would a recruit who has dreams of the NBA go to a college where he's only allowed to practice during business hours? Why would a recruit who eats, sleeps, and breathes basketball go to a school that isn't committed to helping him? Why would he go to that school when he's got 10-20 other schools that want him just as bad and have better facilities and have shown a stronger dedication to basketball? The practice facility is a must for recruiting, not to mention the fact that it will allow the players a place to practice 24/7.
The Gophers will hire a competent AD this summer who has better (read: any) vision than Joel and will hopefully get the ball rolling on the practice facility. Tubby finishes his contract in 2013-2014, so he will have two seasons after this year. Barring an exceptional season or Tubby landing Tyus Jones and Rashad Vaughn, I think Tubby announces his retirement with the understanding that Minnesota does not want to extend him. This will allow Minnesota to begin looking for a new coach while Tubby is still with us and HOPEFULLY we will have a practice facility by that time. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a practice facility within 2 and a half years. This would allow a new coach to walk in to a better situation here at Minnesota.
Currently, Minnesota isn't in any position to fire a mediocre coach after only 5 years. Dan Monson gave us 8 years of poor-mediocre basketball and we fired him. Why in the HELL would we fire Tubby Smith after 5 years of mediocre basketball? We would not be able to land any decent coach if they thought they would get fired after 5 years of mediocre basketball at a school that will pay them a normal salary without quality facilities. The best Minnesota fans could hope for is Tubby to coach out the rest of his contract. I think that the timing of Joel leaving and Tubby's contract is pretty good in that it will allow a new AD to come in and hopefully get the practice facility started before a new coach comes in. I have confidence in President Kaler to make a good hire at Athletic Director who will get the program moving in the right direction for the next head coach.
I have only recently come to realize how important the practice facility is for the program. As scher has said, the practice facility is a must when it comes to recruiting. Why would a recruit who has dreams of the NBA go to a college where he's only allowed to practice during business hours? Why would a recruit who eats, sleeps, and breathes basketball go to a school that isn't committed to helping him? Why would he go to that school when he's got 10-20 other schools that want him just as bad and have better facilities and have shown a stronger dedication to basketball? The practice facility is a must for recruiting, not to mention the fact that it will allow the players a place to practice 24/7.
Some good points for the long run, but you do not need a practice facility to recruit a better team than this one. You need a young coach with a passion. Minnesota has a lot of good basketball players locally. They will come to the U if we win. Do you think Butler has better facilities than MN? George Mason? VCU? I am sick of the excuses for not winning here in basketball. I do not see execution on the floor. This has nothing to do with a practice facility.
dpodoll68
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Exactly. The 1996 championship team had 9 (!) future NBA players. I'm not going to look it up, but that has to be some sort of record. I suppose one could think that Tubby would surpass those heights, but it is my contention that any coach, be it Wooden, Rupp, or Smith, would have some sort of let-down from one of the greatest teams in college basketball history.
BarnBurner
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dpodoll68
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It's not a "take". It's a statement of fact. Period. Tubby was, on average, more or less the same coach at Kentucky with his own recruits or Pitino's. Period. These statements of fact cannot be argued against. You can say that Kentucky was in decline before he left, but that is an entirely different argument and not at all germane to the (false) point that "Tubby couldn't win at Kentucky with his own recruits".
Oh, and to answer your idiotic and pointless question, Pitino went 14-14 (10-8) in 1989, his first year, and Sutton went 13-19 (8-10) in 1988, his last year. Yes, Tubby's last two seasons were the worst since the two previous coaches they had. Contrary to Kentucky fans' belief, their team is not automatically handed a minimum of 12 conference wins every season. Tubby was just so terrible at Kentucky that his successor was way worse.
This man has helped this program. You conveniently look at now, and 5 years ago, and ignore the years in-between, wherein Tubby has been more successful than any Gophers coach in over 20 years. How convenient for your argument.
Really? His Big Ten winning percentage is very close to Monson's. His NC winning percentage is terrific. Big F'n deal. He doesn't play anybody. He never schedule a tough road game. Never. I could care less about NC games. Let me know when he finishes in the top half of the Big Ten. Monson did. Clem did. This current team has skill level below what many of Monson's teams had. AND Monson wasn't paid $2 Million.
From the Barn
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VCU new practice facility farther along than ours. They already have a practice facility even though it doesn't seem that nice. http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...-new-basketball-training-facility-ar-1260656/
minngg said:
I agree that tubby should improve his big10 record. He has been to the tourney more than monson, though. Monson had 0 appearances in years 1-5 (his only came in year 6) and he has just as many wins as tubby.
We have never played a "tough" true road game (although I'd say none are particularly easy) but he did get Louisville and won and is slated for two pretty tough tournaments the next two years. Gophers have also beat UNC, Butler, and West Virginia. I will give it to Monson that he schedules tough games, as he continues to do at LBSU. However, if Tubby did the same and lost many (not saying you) would complain that his record was awful and they needed to do better in the NC.
Tubby is a slightly below average paid big 10 coach (saw that on twitter today) so I don't really focus on his salary. College coaches make good money, nothing anyone can do about it.
Remember that Monson had a few bubble teams that burst while Tubby was darned lucky to get in his first time. That's why NCAA appearance are only one measure. You have to look at Big Ten record, NCAA appearances and NCAA wins. Non-conference is too tough to measure because of scheduling disparity.
Atl Gopher
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+1,000,001; I love college basketball. In particular supporting Gopher BB. When Trevor went down, I had just back from a month long business trip outside of the US. I could not wait to watch a Gopher BB game. I got to watch 2 wins and then Trevor went down. It made me sick. Our best player, a dominant player went down for the season and I knew the season was lost. But, we won 6 games in a row without him. To spite all the complaints about our weak schedule we still had a strong RPI.
Then we lose our first 3 Big Ten games. Each one of those games we could have and should have won. They were fun to watch. I hate losing at anything, but still they were fun to watch. Ya'll, the season is still young. The players are giving everything they have.
I agree about Ralph falling asleep sometimes out there. I thought the first 18 minutes yesteray were amung his best and then he just seemed to lose it. I still think he will have a great year. I still think this team will be competitive and will make the NCAA's and win one or two games there. If they don't, then I will be upset, but I am not giving up on Tubby. The way this team has developed if we still had Trevor this would be one of the top teams in America. It still makes me sick, but I am proud to have Tubby as our coach.
Now if we wind up 0 and 18, then.............................
Then we lose our first 3 Big Ten games. Each one of those games we could have and should have won. They were fun to watch. I hate losing at anything, but still they were fun to watch. Ya'll, the season is still young. The players are giving everything they have.
I agree about Ralph falling asleep sometimes out there. I thought the first 18 minutes yesteray were amung his best and then he just seemed to lose it. I still think he will have a great year. I still think this team will be competitive and will make the NCAA's and win one or two games there. If they don't, then I will be upset, but I am not giving up on Tubby. The way this team has developed if we still had Trevor this would be one of the top teams in America. It still makes me sick, but I am proud to have Tubby as our coach.
Now if we wind up 0 and 18, then.............................
dpodoll68
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How many times did Monson go to the Dance in 8 years? How many times has Tubby gone in 4 years?
The gap between Tubby and Monson is not what we hoped. But part of that is that Monson was not nearly as awful for most of his tenure as he is generally remembered on here. And neither is Tubby. It can go downhill from Tubby. It could even go downhill from Monson. Be careful what you wish for.
The thing with Tubby is that you can make an argument either way for how good he is or isn't.
He gets enough wins in an easy pre conference schedule to make his win column look good.
Here is where it gets gray.
The "overall body of work"
When Tubby left UK he left it in decline. regardless of what he had done with Pitino's players or even some
of the recruits he got and worked with himself.
Nobody expected Tubby to have a 1996 team every year.
However, By his last 2 seasons UK wasn't a ranked team, was finishing in the middle of the SEC, not getting top players
and leaving the NCAA Tourn on the first weekend.
They were no longer and Elite team.
Every coach has a bad year but had he stayed at UK it didn't appear that the next year held any promise of a return to the top.
A bad year, OK two bad years people begin to wonder, more than that and it's a habit.
Fast forward to Minn.
Tubby took over a team that was at the bottom and he only had one way to go. He did inject some life into the Gophers but
I have to wonder if any mid level coach couldn't have improved on what Monson had done.
Now after 5 years at the helm where is Minn.? At the bottom of the Big Ten and looking for a fight to get into the NCAA
If Tubby was all he is cracked up to be, him getting into the NCAA should not be a fight, it should be automatic.
Yes he lost Trevor. Is he so great a coach that 1 player going down caused the whole ship to sink? He should have had more built into his recruiting but he doesn't recruit enough top players. He gets serviceable players that will try and do as he tells them but most of the players he gets for starters would be a sub on a top notch team if they even got recruited by said team.
Its not like Tubby is getting recruits over DUKE, UNC, UCONN etc.
As I said, the "overall body of work"
At the end of the day in a business you can split hairs over why business isn't good and the competition is ahead of you but the overall direction the company is going in is THE BOTTOM LINE
Year 5 of Tubby
Only has wins against soft teams.
No wins against Big Ten teams
Probably looking at a NIT at best, even with the NCAA expansion
Refuses to change his system even though it appears its going nowhere fast
Fans, this is not suppose to be a mid level coach were talking about but at one time had
many saying he was one of THE best.
This is NOT the results of one of THE best coaches in b-ball but the results of a mid level coach.
I for one think Tubby's better days are behind him. Not sure if he is tired or just doesn't care enough anymore
but if he hasn't done better than this by year 5 there is no reason to believe he will be any better by year 6, 7, etc.
He gets enough wins in an easy pre conference schedule to make his win column look good.
Here is where it gets gray.
The "overall body of work"
When Tubby left UK he left it in decline. regardless of what he had done with Pitino's players or even some
of the recruits he got and worked with himself.
Nobody expected Tubby to have a 1996 team every year.
However, By his last 2 seasons UK wasn't a ranked team, was finishing in the middle of the SEC, not getting top players
and leaving the NCAA Tourn on the first weekend.
They were no longer and Elite team.
Every coach has a bad year but had he stayed at UK it didn't appear that the next year held any promise of a return to the top.
A bad year, OK two bad years people begin to wonder, more than that and it's a habit.
Fast forward to Minn.
Tubby took over a team that was at the bottom and he only had one way to go. He did inject some life into the Gophers but
I have to wonder if any mid level coach couldn't have improved on what Monson had done.
Now after 5 years at the helm where is Minn.? At the bottom of the Big Ten and looking for a fight to get into the NCAA
If Tubby was all he is cracked up to be, him getting into the NCAA should not be a fight, it should be automatic.
Yes he lost Trevor. Is he so great a coach that 1 player going down caused the whole ship to sink? He should have had more built into his recruiting but he doesn't recruit enough top players. He gets serviceable players that will try and do as he tells them but most of the players he gets for starters would be a sub on a top notch team if they even got recruited by said team.
Its not like Tubby is getting recruits over DUKE, UNC, UCONN etc.
As I said, the "overall body of work"
At the end of the day in a business you can split hairs over why business isn't good and the competition is ahead of you but the overall direction the company is going in is THE BOTTOM LINE
Year 5 of Tubby
Only has wins against soft teams.
No wins against Big Ten teams
Probably looking at a NIT at best, even with the NCAA expansion
Refuses to change his system even though it appears its going nowhere fast
Fans, this is not suppose to be a mid level coach were talking about but at one time had
many saying he was one of THE best.
This is NOT the results of one of THE best coaches in b-ball but the results of a mid level coach.
I for one think Tubby's better days are behind him. Not sure if he is tired or just doesn't care enough anymore
but if he hasn't done better than this by year 5 there is no reason to believe he will be any better by year 6, 7, etc.
Although Smith compiled an impressive resume during his UK career, he came under considerable pressure from many UK fans, who believed that his failure to achieve even a single Final Four appearance in his last nine seasons was inadequate by UK standards. This drought is the longest of any coach in UK history,
We are sure spending a lot of money for one extra game in one year. I cannot believe the people that say we could be worse with a new coach. So what? We are 12th instead of 9th or 10th? I'll take my chances.
dpdoll- that's a closer analysis than you think. Here's the measure I think is better: Monson finished 6th or better 3 times. Once 4th. Tubby has two 6th place finishes. I'm not sure you can hold it against Monson or favor Tubby because Tubby got on the right side of the bubble once (fairly solidly in the other time) and Monson's bubble burst twice.
Then - as far as luck Monson had equally bad luck:
I think they were about 16-2 when Bickerstaff or Bauer (can't remember which) went down one year (so that's similar to last year for Tubby). That could have been a tourney year.
He had a squad ready to break through with a big win over Indiana and Pryz,the big star of the game quits school because he doesn't want to be told he has to attend class or whatever. That could have been a tourney year.
The of course there was the epic Burleson meltdown against Illinois that cost them the tourney.
The beat goes on.
Gold Vision
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The salary Tubby makes is a non issue on many levels. He's paid 5th in the conference with his original contract and is right at the average B1G coaching salary.
Portlandgopher
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Monson also faced major sanctions; five scholarship losses over three years, and recruiting limitations.
To compare where the program was when Monson and Tubby were hired is apples to oranges. Monson was recovering from a scandal, Smith was recovering from Monsons last two bad years.
If somebody can do a better job I'm all for Tubby to go.
It isn't a non-issue because we could get these results for a lot less money. Tubby should not be making what the average Big Ten coach makes. His results are not average in the Big Ten.