This Loss is On Tubby-More evidence that his best coaching days are behind him

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I get your point Cayman, but... other reasonable thoughts might include:

Cayman said:
At the beginning of the next season, the 2009-10 season, two newcomers, and probably the best players on the team, Royce White and Trevor Mbakwe, were suspended for the full season, and Al Nolen was ruled academically ineligible even after a waiver was applied for because he was reportedly experiencing family issues.
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"Suspended for the full season" isn't accurate and you're making excuses for Al. There were.. 'questions'.. surrounding both players that were suspended prior to their arrival on campus - that was a calculated risk the program took. When you accept risk and you have a junior in college failing to reach relatively easy minimal requirements, that's on the program including the coach and the school administrators.

In the 2010-11 season, Oto Osieniks did not pass through the NCAA clearinghouse, and Devoe Joseph was suspended for the first 6 games of the season
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Won't get into details, but you're off on the Osenieks comment (as to his status during the season, but also this was a calculated risk when bringing him into the program) and again with Joseph, behavior problems throughout your roster are on the coach.

There has been some tough luck on injuries, but at some point you become an apologist.

However... does him staying this next season provide the best hope for success? Maybe. No promise the grass is greener if the program went elsewhere with the head coaching position.
 

I think we can debate all day long how much blame Tubby deserves for the transfers/suspensions. I think the best way to find out if Tubby is the guy or not is to have a year with no significant injuries or transfers. Hopefully that is next year.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I think we can debate all day long how much blame Tubby deserves for the transfers/suspensions. I think the best way to find out if Tubby is the guy or not is to have a year with no significant injuries or transfers. Hopefully that is next year.
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Exactly. +1
 

A couple of thoughts -

On Andre Hollins: I think what some people are alluding to on the "is he a PG or not" argument is this: If Hollins is your most natural scoring threat, do you want to also hand him the burden/responsibility for setting up the offense, getting other players in position, and distributing the ball - or do you want to have someone else take on those duties, and leave Dre free to do what he does best - create and score. yes, he would be a (slightly) undersized SG, but the T-Wolves have shown with Ridnour and Rubio or Berrea that you can play two shorter guards and make it work. I'm not sure Dre is a "natural" PG or not - but I would vote for turning him loose to score, and finding another PG who is more of a distributor, as opposed to a "shoot first" PG.

As far as Tubby and injuries. Yes, the Gophs have had injuries - but, isn't every player on the team supposed to know how to run the offense? The individual skill levels of the players may change, but the offense is the offense no matter who's in the game. In theory, your reserves should know the offense as well as, or even better than the starters, because they practice against it when running on the scout team. So, when the subs are in, (or starters are lost to injury), there should not be a major drop-off in offensive execution.

Finally - I agree that next year is going to tell the tale. Assuming (always dangerous) that there are no significant injuries, transfers, suspensions, legal issues, etc., a lot of people believe that this team will be better next year - some feel significantly better. As Wren would say, it all comes down to Big 10 Wins! If the Gophs don't show measurable improvement, I think it's going to be very hard to justify keeping Tubby at his salary - especially if home attendance doesn't pick up.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
A couple of thoughts -

On Andre Hollins: I think what some people are alluding to on the "is he a PG or not" argument is this: If Hollins is your most natural scoring threat, do you want to also hand him the burden/responsibility for setting up the offense, getting other players in position, and distributing the ball - or do you want to have someone else take on those duties, and leave Dre free to do what he does best - create and score. yes, he would be a (slightly) undersized SG, but the T-Wolves have shown with Ridnour and Rubio or Berrea that you can play two shorter guards and make it work. I'm not sure Dre is a "natural" PG or not - but I would vote for turning him loose to score, and finding another PG who is more of a distributor, as opposed to a "shoot first" PG.

As far as Tubby and injuries. Yes, the Gophs have had injuries - but, isn't every player on the team supposed to know how to run the offense? The individual skill levels of the players may change, but the offense is the offense no matter who's in the game. In theory, your reserves should know the offense as well as, or even better than the starters, because they practice against it when running on the scout team. So, when the subs are in, (or starters are lost to injury), there should not be a major drop-off in offensive execution.

Finally - I agree that next year is going to tell the tale. Assuming (always dangerous) that there are no significant injuries, transfers, suspensions, legal issues, etc., a lot of people believe that this team will be better next year - some feel significantly better. As Wren would say, it all comes down to Big 10 Wins! If the Gophs don't show measurable improvement, I think it's going to be very hard to justify keeping Tubby at his salary - especially if home attendance doesn't pick up.
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In theory, your reserves should know the offense as well as, or even better than the starters, because they practice against it when running on the scout team.
--- Problem is with all the rotations in starting lineups game to game, this year we never really every knew who our "starters" actually were. I hope next year Tubby has an idea who the "starters" are for next year and defines them early and stays with them throughout the season... rather than shaking it up all the time. We need consistency in lineup to develop chemistry.
 


jamiche said:
Not idiotic at all. A team that is trying to get in the tourney has a helluva lot more to play for than a team that is playing for the difference between a 2 seed and a 3 seed, particularly when you are talking about a group of 18-21 yer olds. Toss in a half full neutral arena and a key player like Tim Hardaway Jr., who thinks he's much better than he is and doesn't always play hard, and you have the ingredients for a gopher upset.
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It's inarguable that Minnesota had a lot more at stake than Michigan. But there is a significant difference between "less to play for" and "nothing to play for", which is what you initially said.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
As far as Tubby and injuries. Yes, the Gophs have had injuries - but, isn't every player on the team supposed to know how to run the offense? The individual skill levels of the players may change, but the offense is the offense no matter who's in the game. In theory, your reserves should know the offense as well as, or even better than the starters, because they practice against it when running on the scout team. So, when the subs are in, (or starters are lost to injury), there should not be a major drop-off in offensive execution.
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Seriously? Um, most of them are subs because they're slower, weaker, poorer shooters, poorer ball handlers, weaker fundamentals, etc. The difference might not be much but there's usually going to be a drop off. Someone might get hot for a game or so but over the course of a season but the weaknesses are going to come out. You only have to look at Joe and Chip to see that. Totally convinced if Austin would not have fouled out, we would have won. Joe made the one nice basket in the clutch but he also made some mistakes that even I noticed.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I think we can debate all day long how much blame Tubby deserves for the transfers/suspensions. I think the best way to find out if Tubby is the guy or not is to have a year with no significant injuries or transfers. Hopefully that is next year.
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I would like to see what happens in a year with no significant injuries. If there are significant transfers this season, I am ready to blame it on something systemic. When should we know on whether or not anyone transfers? Does that happen right after the postseason?
 

dpodoll68 said:
It's inarguable that Minnesota had a lot more at stake than Michigan. But there is a significant difference between "less to play for" and "nothing to play for", which is what you initially said.
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OK, your honor, I'll amend "nothing to play for" (because you are correct that no team ever has absolutely nothing to play for because putting the ball in the basket is inherently a reward in and of itself) to "very little to play for," so that my point will have greater clarity and the discussion will be enhanced.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
On Andre Hollins: I think what some people are alluding to on the "is he a PG or not" argument is this: If Hollins is your most natural scoring threat, do you want to also hand him the burden/responsibility for setting up the offense, getting other players in position, and distributing the ball - or do you want to have someone else take on those duties, and leave Dre free to do what he does best - create and score. yes, he would be a (slightly) undersized SG, but the T-Wolves have shown with Ridnour and Rubio or Berrea that you can play two shorter guards and make it work. I'm not sure Dre is a "natural" PG or not - but I would vote for turning him loose to score, and finding another PG who is more of a distributor, as opposed to a "shoot first" PG.
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I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I want the best player handling the ball as much as possible.
 


jamiche said:
Not idiotic at all. A team that is trying to get in the tourney has a helluva lot more to play for than a team that is playing for the difference between a 2 seed and a 3 seed, particularly when you are talking about a group of 18-21 yer olds. Toss in a half full neutral arena and a key player like Tim Hardaway Jr., who thinks he's much better than he is and doesn't always play hard, and you have the ingredients for a gopher upset.
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i really hate these opinions, it feels like every time we play a higher ranked team and we keep it close someone is quick to say "so and so didnt care they knew they were in regardless of how the game turned out." or the "minnesota had more to play for." comments. if michigan wins the big ten tourney they end up a 2-3 seed, michigan loses to us who knows, they could have dropped to a possible 5 seed? no proof of that just saying its a possibility. why not admit that tubby and the team had a good game plan and gave an overrated team a run for their money? why does it always have to go to someone not trying or we are playing above our level? im so sick of the negative nancy's on this board who blame everything negative on "players that suck" or "tubby cant coach". give credit to these kids and coaches when its due, they represent us! quit being so negative all the time its getting old!

sorry rant is over
 

lakesgopher said:
i really hate these opinions, it feels like every time we play a higher ranked team and we keep it close someone is quick to say "so and so didnt care they knew they were in regardless of how the game turned out." or the "minnesota had more to play for." comments. if michigan wins the big ten tourney they end up a 2-3 seed, michigan loses to us who knows, they could have dropped to a possible 5 seed? no proof of that just saying its a possibility. why not admit that tubby and the team had a good game plan and gave an overrated team a run for their money? why does it always have to go to someone not trying or we are playing above our level? im so sick of the negative nancy's on this board who blame everything negative on "players that suck" or "tubby cant coach". give credit to these kids and coaches when its due, they represent us! quit being so negative all the time its getting old!

sorry rant is over
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Exactly. I think some people who make posts like that have never played sports above junior high before. These guys are not top D1 athletes just because of talent. It's because of their desire and competitiveness. Look at today's Big Ten Championship. You think those players really want to win? Of course they do.
 



GophersInIowa said:
Exactly. I think some people who make posts like that have never played sports above junior high before. These guys are not top D1 athletes just because of talent. It's because of their desire and competitiveness. Look at today's Big Ten Championship. You think those players really want to win? Of course they do.
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And then they only played in Junior High because the philosophy at that age group was that everyone gets to play.
 

Yeah, because someone doesn't put out every game because of this or that or this guy thinks he's better than he really is regarding opposing teams, well that's the way it is. That's the make up of that TEAM. Gosh there is no perfectly level playing field in any game. There's all kinds of factors. Throw the ball out to play and see who wins. Gophers played well.
 

Good discussion on Dre to be a point Guard or not.... the facts that we made the NIT is a good chance to let these young guys play and win a couple games to prove they belong in the NCAA.
 


GW knows best.

Gopher Warrior said:
Won't get into details, but you're off on the Osenieks comment (as to his status during the season, but also this was a calculated risk when bringing him into the program) and again with Joseph, behavior problems throughout your roster are on the coach.

There has been some tough luck on injuries, but at some point you become an apologist.

However... does him staying this next season provide the best hope for success? Maybe. No promise the grass is greener if the program went elsewhere with the head coaching position.
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Tubby Hater.
 

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