The NCAA has opened an investigation into No. 2 Michigan over possible rule-breaking around in-person scouting of opponents

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Just like in baseball, encode your signals to keep the opponent from understanding them.
 

BleedGopher said:
Per the Athletic:

Michigan State was approached by the league as a forewarning ahead of this weekend’s matchup between the rivals in East Lansing. According to a source briefed on those conversations, upon learning of the pending investigation, Michigan State initially warned the Big Ten it might consider not playing Saturday’s game out of concern for health and safety for its players. On Thursday morning, MSU confirmed it will indeed play the game.

Michigan was informed that it’s being investigated, but has yet to be presented with the evidence compiled by the conference. UM athletic director Warde Manuel spoke with Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti on Wednesday.

The league claims that Michigan, as one source with knowledge of the allegation said, is using a “vast network” to steal opposing team’s signs. The league told Michigan State it has reviewed film that shows UM clearly knowing what play an opposing team is going to run before the play occurs.

Sign stealing is not prohibited in NCAA football, unless a team intercepts in-game electronic communication.

The Big Ten released a statementaddressing the situation Thursday:

“Late Wednesday afternoon, the Big Ten Conference and University of Michigan were notified by the NCAA that the NCAA was investigating allegations of sign stealing by the University of Michigan football program. The Big Ten Conference has notified Michigan State University and future opponents. The Big Ten Conference considers the integrity of competition to be of utmost importance and will continue to monitor the investigation. The Conference will have no further comment at this time.”

Go Gophers!!
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Just another gutless commissioner. Just like the last one,
 

BleedGopher said:
Per the Athletic:

Michigan State was approached by the league as a forewarning ahead of this weekend’s matchup between the rivals in East Lansing. According to a source briefed on those conversations, upon learning of the pending investigation, Michigan State initially warned the Big Ten it might consider not playing Saturday’s game out of concern for health and safety for its players. On Thursday morning, MSU confirmed it will indeed play the game.

Michigan was informed that it’s being investigated, but has yet to be presented with the evidence compiled by the conference. UM athletic director Warde Manuel spoke with Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti on Wednesday.

The league claims that Michigan, as one source with knowledge of the allegation said, is using a “vast network” to steal opposing team’s signs. The league told Michigan State it has reviewed film that shows UM clearly knowing what play an opposing team is going to run before the play occurs.

Sign stealing is not prohibited in NCAA football, unless a team intercepts in-game electronic communication.

The Big Ten released a statementaddressing the situation Thursday:

“Late Wednesday afternoon, the Big Ten Conference and University of Michigan were notified by the NCAA that the NCAA was investigating allegations of sign stealing by the University of Michigan football program. The Big Ten Conference has notified Michigan State University and future opponents. The Big Ten Conference considers the integrity of competition to be of utmost importance and will continue to monitor the investigation. The Conference will have no further comment at this time.”

Go Gophers!!
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say-what-gif-file-904kb-pruj1zwqtqdwtg1m.gif
 

MplsGopher said:

First play here.

He overthrew the route. The Mich corner was outside the receiver. And it was thrown well after he came out of his break. You wouldn’t need to know anything about the play call to make that play.
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He didn't overthrow the route, the route is meant to go to the sideline. The problem is the safety who normally covers deep and in, is covering up and out. I don't ever think I have seen a double team where one is short in and the other is short out.
 

Dan Jackson came out of his break and was running full speed towards the sideline. The ball traveled further towards the sideline than Jackson was located.

I don't know how that can't be considered overthrowing it. Maybe words don't mean what I think they mean
 


So when did Michigan begin stealing signs? Anyone out there think it began this season? Maybe last season? Wonder how Ohio state feels about Michigan loss last year in light of these allegations? About two years ago Michigan fans were ready to get rid of harbaugh, but Michigan suddenly took it to another level. Someone convince it is all about coaching.
 


There is too much money in college football.

Well, there has been too much money in college football for a long time, but it's getting more blatant.

Whenever there's too much money in something, it attracts greed and bad actors.

The NCAA will slap Michigan on the wrist, they're greedy too and Michigan makes them a lot of money. I find myself rarely watching games these days...well for the 5 minutes they appear between the commercials.
 

Harbaugh’s losses at Michigan over the years.
3,3,5,3,4,4,2,1,0
I would say he started stealing illegally after the ‘20 season when they went 2-4 and basically quit on their season claiming covid.
He has a personality where losing drives him nuts. Could never beat Urban and was almost fired if it wasn’t for taking a 50% pay cut.
He did get new coordinators around ‘20 I believe but was that the reason for the turnaround or did he start stealing signs then?
 



The prez sez said:
So when did Michigan begin stealing signs? Anyone out there think it began this season? Maybe last season? Wonder how Ohio state feels about Michigan loss last year in light of these allegations? About two years ago Michigan fans were ready to get rid of harbaugh, but Michigan suddenly took it to another level. Someone convince it is all about coaching.
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The report that came out today says at least 2021. A staffer’s (former military) sole job was to understand opponents signs.

www.espn.com

Sources: U-M staffer eyed as center of scheme

A low-level staffer with a military background has emerged as one of the linchpins in the NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, sources told ESPN.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
 

Again, if they were braking rules in a nefarious way, sure, give them a penalty.

But its not like they used illegal players or illegal plays. It's not like they broke into a coaches home in the middle of the night to steal the playbook.

Don't sign in plays. Nothing to steal.


I say again: there is absolutely no reason why programs as rich as those in the Big Ten should not be able to use "green dot" helmets.

I hope this drives that discussion forward.
 


Also, I think the impact of this is more limited than what people imagine.


Think about how it would have to work, the logistics of it:

- you have one week to train your guys up on what the next opponent's signs are
- what can you possibly teach them, program in that they're going to be able to do in the heat of the game??

They have barely enough time to get their own defensive calls in and line up in that position.

You're saying that they're going to be looking over at the (eg Gopher) sideline, see the opponent signs, and know exactly what play it is, every time? And then adjust themselves? For probably hundreds of different plays. Plus there will have been plays teams just put in that week.


I just think their players would barely have time to do it all.

So I think it would a lot more limited in what they can get out of it, than what people are allowing their imaginations to run away with.
 



GophersInIowa said:
The report that came out today says at least 2021. A staffer’s (former military) sole job was to understand opponents signs.

www.espn.com

Sources: U-M staffer eyed as center of scheme

A low-level staffer with a military background has emerged as one of the linchpins in the NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, sources told ESPN.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
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This alleged culprit, Stallions sounds like a military Harbaugh, intense and willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission.
 

Lastly, Schiano is Fleck's mentor. I would not be surprised if they talk weekly. Plus all the former Gopher connections on that staff (and team).

(Unless those defections have soured things, that is possible).

And if so, then there is no possible way Fleck didn't have a heads up on this. Even if Schiano was like "I can't prove anything, but I think they were stealing our signs somehow" ... you take precautions.

If Fleck took none ... wow.
 

From the link:

If the allegations are proven to be true, Michigan would have violated NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1, which states: "Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited."

...

What is crucial to the NCAA case isn't what Stalions did while breaking down television copies of games to learn and decode opponents' signals. It's whether or not illicit methods were used, which are alleged to include opponent scouting in different venues and was outlawed by the NCAA nearly three decades ago as a cost-cutting measure to bring more equity to the sport.


This whole thing is just a bit silly. A .... cost-cutting measure. Come on ...

It's a silly rule. The rich schools should be able to do it, if they want to spend the money to do that.


Don't sign your plays in.
 


Seems simple to me. You have a rule, and if you intentionally break said rule, there should be punishment. My simplistic thinking hasn't gotten very far with the NCAA however.

I also read that somewhere that his lawyers are preparing a defense on the grounds that Harbaugh didn't know it was taking place, which I find hilarious. 1) How would that be possible. 2) Lack of institutional control?
 

After reading the ESPN story, I can only say that harbaugh is an utterly contemptible mess of a human being. he cheats. The conference must take action. I hope Michigan State fans call them out as Cheaters loudly the entire game Saturday night on national TV
 

I wonder if PJ and Schiano had a talk which led to the no handshake at the end of the game.
 

The prez sez said:
After reading the ESPN story, I can only say that harbaugh is an utterly contemptible mess of a human being. he cheats. The conference must take action. I hope Michigan State fans call them out as Cheaters loudly the entire game Saturday night on national TV
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Yup already been busted. Plus his actions with medically retiring St Juste were just scummy, if not technically cheating.
 


GophersInIowa said:
The report that came out today says at least 2021. A staffer’s (former military) sole job was to understand opponents signs.

www.espn.com

Sources: U-M staffer eyed as center of scheme

A low-level staffer with a military background has emerged as one of the linchpins in the NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, sources told ESPN.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
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Fascinating. A real hard charger. While my personal feelings are teams should guard against this possibility as a matter of routine…I suppose the methods are what’s at stake here. Where is the line. Is studying tv broadcasts off limits, for example. Might be hard to “prove” guilt, but the stigma will stick. Oh well.



"This is worse than both the Astros and the Patriots -- it's both use of technology for a competitive advantage and there's allegations that they are filming prior games, not just in-game," a Big Ten source said. "If it was just an in-game situation, that's different. Going and filming somewhere you're not supposed to be. It's illegal. It's too much of an advantage."

Stalions, a graduate of the United States Naval Academy, was hired as an off-field analyst at Michigan in May 2022, according to a bio on his LinkedIn account. In the bio, Stalions wrote that he attempts to "employ Marine Corps philosophies and tactics into the sport of football regarding strategies in staffing, recruiting, scouting, intelligence, planning and more."

Among the skills Stalions wrote about on LinkedIn were "identifying the opponent's most likely course of action and most dangerous course of action" and "identifying and exploiting critical vulnerabilities and centers of gravity in the opponent scouting process."

The son of two Michigan alumni, Stalions enrolled at the Naval Academy and was a student assistant for the Midshipmen from 2013 to 2016. After being commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps in 2017, Stalions worked as a graduate assistant at Navy before beginning his military training, according to his LinkedIn account.

While he was stationed at Camp Pendleton in California, Stalions wrote, he served as a volunteer assistant coach at Michigan from May 2015 to May 2022.

"On top of my daily duties as a Logistics Officer leading [40-plus] at a time, I volunteered for the Michigan football staff, flying back [and] forth on my own dime, assisting the defensive staff," Stalions wrote.
 

I was chatting with a Gopher staffer ahead of the MI game. He said MI has 10x the support budget than MN. There's those new mid-rise apartments across the street from the practice field. So theoretically MI could rent an apartment and plant a scout there to watch the Gophers practice. I assume PJ is smart enough to run drills outside and gameplan inside. But still...not a level playing field (like even more than I already thought). They have staffers just monitoring opponent players' social media for any hint of vulnerability (like breaking up with his girlfriend). So yeah, MI "spies" because they have the budget for all these clandestine efforts. Weird stuff... Moneyball on steroids.
 


Use a damn huddle. Give the QB authority to change calls at the line. Issue solved.

I've wondered for a long time why FBS teams think they can get away with using signals without opponents breaking the code. There's too much at stake not to.
 


Supposedly a staffer asked for a visit to an opposing team's stadium to prep for a visit.

Not actually a weird request.

But he asked for it ON GAMEDAY....

www.insidezonemf.com

How far did Michigan go to gain an edge? The answers from Big Ten coaches are telling.

An NCAA investigation into alleged violations related to sign-stealing has cast a dark cloud over the Wolverines and coach Jim Harbaugh, who find themselves at the center of yet another scandal.
www.insidezonemf.com www.insidezonemf.com

That's how you fuck up actual reasons to visit / good things.
 

MplsGopher said:
Also, I think the impact of this is more limited than what people imagine.


Think about how it would have to work, the logistics of it:

- you have one week to train your guys up on what the next opponent's signs are
- what can you possibly teach them, program in that they're going to be able to do in the heat of the game??

They have barely enough time to get their own defensive calls in and line up in that position.

You're saying that they're going to be looking over at the (eg Gopher) sideline, see the opponent signs, and know exactly what play it is, every time? And then adjust themselves? For probably hundreds of different plays. Plus there will have been plays teams just put in that week.


I just think their players would barely have time to do it all.

So I think it would a lot more limited in what they can get out of it, than what people are allowing their imaginations to run away with.
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I don't think the logistics work that way at all. You don't try and teach all 11 players on defense how to read the opponents signals - you have a staffer doing that and then that staffer just changes the defensive alignment before the ball is snapped. Heck, the players don't even have to know why their alignments keep changing pre-snap, just that they do.

And you don't need it to happen on every play. Think of the "0" and "00" on the roulette tables. Those numbers very rarely come up, but they still give the casino enough of an advantage to win more than lose. So even if Michigan just does it on some plays, it can still change the game unfairly.
 

Nokomis said:
I was chatting with a Gopher staffer ahead of the MI game. He said MI has 10x the support budget than MN. There's those new mid-rise apartments across the street from the practice field. So theoretically MI could rent an apartment and plant a scout there to watch the Gophers practice. I assume PJ is smart enough to run drills outside and gameplan inside. But still...not a level playing field (like even more than I already thought). They have staffers just monitoring opponent players' social media for any hint of vulnerability (like breaking up with his girlfriend). So yeah, MI "spies" because they have the budget for all these clandestine efforts. Weird stuff... Moneyball on steroids.
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Not disputing the expanded resources a place like Michigan has but no opponent is renting an apartment to spy on our practices....that would be insane. In practice you use scripts, the plays aren't even signaled in and we aren't the kind of program that would inspire enough fear in opponents to make them do something completely ridiculous like paying thousands for an apartment just to watch practices.

But all the other stuff, social media stalking....etc....can totally see teams doing that in order to find any sort of edge. This is big business, and coaches want to keep their jobs.

As for sending someone to games to scout live. It is an antiquated rule but it is a rule and if they did it, they knew it was against the rules and should be punished for it.

High def cameras have taken sign stealing to a new level. Look at all the coaches that cover their mouth so that nobody can read their lips, they know teams are watching.
 

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