The foundation is built, now onto the house

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Ole

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I've always taken the long term view on Kill here, it's the type of coach he is and although lots of people point to the quick 3 and 4 year turnarounds, I never expected we'd be Rose bowl bound in year 4.
Kill and his coaches have systematically rebuilt the program, I think quicker than they thought they would. I also think they have a systematic plan for the next 3-4 years to elevate the program further.

We still lack killer instinct, and killer playmakers that can make a game turning play. That kind of talent has been hard to come by thusfar, and frankly those type of athletes typically struggle to grind through tough times like this team had in the 2011, 2012, and 2013 seasons. I think now the staff will transition into the house building phase of their plan finding guys who can mix into the great foundation and chemistry this team has won with, but also make those big plays that turn games.

If I'm right they expect Jeff Jones and the RS wideouts to add that element.
The light has turned on for Mitch, the rest of the team will essentially be the same or better, and now we'll have a handful of guys to either take the top off the D, break a run for more than 30 yards, or make a few guys miss and add the quick score element we simply have lacked so far.

Kill and his staff have played this out pretty impressively IMO, and now they'll look to find the missing pieces to a 10+ win season in the next 2 years. Hopefully nothing unexpected torpedoes the whole thing, but I can see 2017 as the dawn of a new era in gopher football with a double digit win house built on the foundation that was laid in 2011-214.
 

I think this is a real possibility as well Ole. I read another poster mention this next season feels like a fork in the road, and I kind of agree with that too. The fork for me means either we see more significant progress this next year, or we see that we have reached our plateau and this is kind of what we can expect for the rest of the Kill era. I think Kill can take us above Mason levels, but at the end of the day it hinges on talent. And to tie in another thread discussion, I don't think Coach will play more aggressive offense until we get more/better play makers on offense.

I am cautiously optimistic that Coach can get us past the Mason Wall.
 

Good post Ole.

I'm already looking forward to the TCU game!

Go Gophers!!
 

I fail to see how anyone can make any assesments on "forks" based on having Leidner as the QB next year and likely the year after that. No offense to Leidner, he was an appropriate style QB for where we were, and the pieces fell where he was starting before he likely should have. I think the next fork, or the deciding point on whether Kill and Co can take the next step will be with their next program QB... Who will that be, and what will he be able to do. If its another Run First style QB, I'm unimpressed, but if it's a guy that provides some dynamic play capabilities I'm thoroughly intrigued by where the program goes from there. Solid D, grinding style running game and a threat at the QB position spells sustained success in the B1G 10.

I love the fact that we might be building the swagger in the Defensive Backfield that might attract higher level recruits to view us as DB U at some point too!
 

Ole said:
I've always taken the long term view on Kill here, it's the type of coach he is and although lots of people point to the quick 3 and 4 year turnarounds, I never expected we'd be Rose bowl bound in year 4.
Kill and his coaches have systematically rebuilt the program, I think quicker than they thought they would. I also think they have a systematic plan for the next 3-4 years to elevate the program further.

We still lack killer instinct, and killer playmakers that can make a game turning play. That kind of talent has been hard to come by thusfar, and frankly those type of athletes typically struggle to grind through tough times like this team had in the 2011, 2012, and 2013 seasons. I think now the staff will transition into the house building phase of their plan finding guys who can mix into the great foundation and chemistry this team has won with, but also make those big plays that turn games.

If I'm right they expect Jeff Jones and the RS wideouts to add that element.
The light has turned on for Mitch, the rest of the team will essentially be the same or better, and now we'll have a handful of guys to either take the top off the D, break a run for more than 30 yards, or make a few guys miss and add the quick score element we simply have lacked so far.

Kill and his staff have played this out pretty impressively IMO, and now they'll look to find the missing pieces to a 10+ win season in the next 2 years. Hopefully nothing unexpected torpedoes the whole thing, but I can see 2017 as the dawn of a new era in gopher football with a double digit win house built on the foundation that was laid in 2011-214.
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I agree for the most part with what you are saying and like the idea of a steady build on a solid foundation over the quick fix flash in the pan type of rebuild that doesn't last. My only concern at this point is where the plateau is and if we have reached it yet or if we will continue to move up the ranks in the conference. Can Kill recruit/develop the playmakers to get us to the point where we can realistically compete with the Ohio State's of the world on a regular basis or will we top out at around .500 in the conference every year? Next year should tell us a lot about the long term future of the program under Kill and whether or not he is going to be able to take things to the next level (division/conference champion vs. division contender).
 


Ole said:
I've always taken the long term view on Kill here, it's the type of coach he is and although lots of people point to the quick 3 and 4 year turnarounds, I never expected we'd be Rose bowl bound in year 4.
Kill and his coaches have systematically rebuilt the program, I think quicker than they thought they would. I also think they have a systematic plan for the next 3-4 years to elevate the program further.

We still lack killer instinct, and killer playmakers that can make a game turning play. That kind of talent has been hard to come by thus far, and frankly those type of athletes typically struggle to grind through tough times like this team had in the 2011, 2012, and 2013 seasons. I think now the staff will transition into the house building phase of their plan finding guys who can mix into the great foundation and chemistry this team has won with, but also make those big plays that turn games.

If I'm right they expect Jeff Jones and the RS wideouts to add that element.

The light has turned on for Mitch, the rest of the team will essentially be the same or better, and now we'll have a handful of guys to either take the top off the D, break a run for more than 30 yards, or make a few guys miss and add the quick score element we simply have lacked so far.

Kill and his staff have played this out pretty impressively IMO, and now they'll look to find the missing pieces to a 10+ win season in the next 2 years. Hopefully nothing unexpected torpedoes the whole thing, but I can see 2017 as the dawn of a new era in gopher football with a double digit win house built on the foundation that was laid in 2011-214.
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Good post. Nothing in there that couldn't happen.
 

What I'll say about Mitch is that his development has been very similar but slower than how Jordan Lynch was at NIU. I recalled checking in on the NIU message board post their 2012 game with Iowa.
A ton of posters were pissed at Kill for A)leaving and B)For not having recruited a QB after Harnish. The term "Fullback playing QB" was thrown around. Remind you of anyone?
Granted, Lynch ultimately was developed by a different coaching staff, but by his senior year he was a really damn good player.

I fully expect with another offseason, spring and fall camps that Mitch will be a sharper passer. If he remains healthy he could be a better runner too.
As for the next guy after him, I think we have no idea who that will be yet. I also think when that QB takes over he'll have a nice core of skill players and linemen around him to help the transition.
If it's a RS Soph Demry Croft, we could have a Vince Young style QB which would fit in nicely in this O I would think.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
I fail to see how anyone can make any assesments on "forks" based on having Leidner as the QB next year and likely the year after that. No offense to Leidner, he was an appropriate style QB for where we were, and the pieces fell where he was starting before he likely should have. I think the next fork, or the deciding point on whether Kill and Co can take the next step will be with their next program QB... Who will that be, and what will he be able to do. If its another Run First style QB, I'm unimpressed, but if it's a guy that provides some dynamic play capabilities I'm thoroughly intrigued by where the program goes from there. Solid D, grinding style running game and a threat at the QB position spells sustained success in the B1G 10.

I love the fact that we might be building the swagger in the Defensive Backfield that might attract higher level recruits to view us as DB U at some point too!
Click to expand...

Honest question - How long are we supposed to wait for them to find/develop that guy? This is not meant at a shot at Kill but we have not had a lot of stability/above average play at the QB position since he got here. What is the window of time where people are going to be content to wait on this staff to find the QB/playmakers that can take this team to the next level, especially on the offensive side of the ball?

My answer to the above is that we need to see those players start to emerge in 2015. There are no more excuses for Leidner, if he has another level he should realize it next season. If he isn't the answer then they need to have the answer on the roster, if they don't then that is a failure on the recruiting front at the most important position on the team.
 

I think people are over estimating how many top tier QBs there really are out there. And even if we get one of those best recruits coming out of high school there are a lot of steps that recruit needs to take to get to top QB status.

Ole I like your post and hope you are correct. I think 2015 may be a tough year and even if the team makes improvements we still might end up with the same record but 2016 could be a VERY good year for us. That is the year my expectations will be very high baring ridiculous injuries. Leidner will be a senior and it will be the 2nd year for all the athletic play makers Coach Kill keeps talking about.
 



I'll also add the Leidner's QB rating ranks him 7th out of 14 in the B1G this year. If he improves again next year he could easily be in the top 5.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Honest question - How long are we supposed to wait for them to find/develop that guy? This is not meant at a shot at Kill but we have not had a lot of stability/above average play at the QB position since he got here. What is the window of time where people are going to be content to wait on this staff to find the QB/playmakers that can take this team to the next level, especially on the offensive side of the ball?

My answer to the above is that we need to see those players start to emerge in 2015. There are no more excuses for Leidner, if he has another level he should realize it next season. If he isn't the answer then they need to have the answer on the roster, if they don't then that is a failure on the recruiting front at the most important position on the team.
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I think Leidner will develop and may take us to the next step. My point was/is that I'm not making an decisions on my opinion of whether KillCo can get us to the next level with leidner at the helm. I think it would be foolish to make a change next year, we've got 2 years invested in him and having a 4 year QB is a huge thing in that 4th year (or should be). But who comes after Leidner? Will it be another cluster phuck of "failed QBs" that don't develop or whatever other mud people throw at the coaching staff as reasons for not having a competent QB. Kill is going to ride Leidner until he graduates, or at least I think he should barring any program changing QB FORCING us to change that tune, and the guy after him is going to be the guy who takes us from good to great, or at least he should be.

Ideally, Lediner graduates as a good QB, and we have a Sophomore/Junior/Senior right behind him that takes us to the next level. I want Kill to have an answer to who is next, BEFORE that person is ready to go. Because right now I don't think anyone can answer the question who the next QB for the Gophers will be.

So to answer your question, in my eyes, I'm waiting 2 years to make that decision.
 

bottlebass said:
I'll also add the Leidner's QB rating ranks him 7th out of 14 in the B1G this year. If he improves again next year he could easily be in the top 5.
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This is what gets me about Leidner. Statistically, he is a mediocre B1G quarterback. What I have a hard time with is the deer-in-headlights demeanor he often has on the field - which gives off a zero-confidence shell to teammates and coaches.

I believe the strides he needs to take are not X's & O's mental, but rather a piss & vinegar killer instinct. Even a fraction of the leap Connor Cook made last year (from early season benching to B1G title game & Rose Bowl winner) would make this a dangerous offense with the young athletes we THINK we have coming up.
 

Is Leidner a top 7 B!G quarterback because of his better performance, or due to injuries to other QB's that fell off the production pipeline? I don't know.
 



Dean S said:
Is Leidner a top 7 B!G quarterback because of his better performance, or due to injuries to other QB's that fell off the production pipeline? I don't know.
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Kid was a RS Sophomore this year with almost no talent at WR and we went to a top bowl.

I think next year we add one or two play makers on the outside and maintain our running game and we see a difference. Is the O-Line going to hold up? Is the D-Line going to hold up? Can we replace our MLB and Safeties? All of these questions are more pressing to me than the play of Mitch Leidner. If he doesn't improve, he will get passed next year and we move on. If he does improve, we are good next year and have a chance at a great season his SR year and hopefully our incoming/young QBs develope for depth and program continuety.
 

BleedGopher said:
Good post Ole.

I'm already looking forward to the TCU game!

Go Gophers!!
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You must be a masochist LOL. They are going to smoke us. Jerry should have gone through with the UNC series. Be careful what you wish for!
 

beavergopher said:
You must be a masochist LOL. They are going to smoke us. Jerry should have gone through with the UNC series. Be careful what you wish for!
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It has been discussed before but what a cluster that whole thing turned out to be. We paid money to get out of a series against a very average UNC team only to end up replacing them with one of the best teams in the country right now.

Gopher in Philly raises some good questions about next year. My only disagreement is in saying if Mitch doesn't improve he will be passed and we move on. The guys behind Mitch were not good enough to unseat him this year, not sure any of them will be next year either. It is a bit concerning that there is not an obvious QB of the future in the current crop, hopefully one develops and as mentioned the skill guys we hope are going to be good all pan out.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
I think Leidner will develop and may take us to the next step. My point was/is that I'm not making an decisions on my opinion of whether KillCo can get us to the next level with leidner at the helm. I think it would be foolish to make a change next year, we've got 2 years invested in him and having a 4 year QB is a huge thing in that 4th year (or should be). But who comes after Leidner? Will it be another cluster phuck of "failed QBs" that don't develop or whatever other mud people throw at the coaching staff as reasons for not having a competent QB. Kill is going to ride Leidner until he graduates, or at least I think he should barring any program changing QB FORCING us to change that tune, and the guy after him is going to be the guy who takes us from good to great, or at least he should be.

Ideally, Lediner graduates as a good QB, and we have a Sophomore/Junior/Senior right behind him that takes us to the next level. I want Kill to have an answer to who is next, BEFORE that person is ready to go. Because right now I don't think anyone can answer the question who the next QB for the Gophers will be.

So to answer your question, in my eyes, I'm waiting 2 years to make that decision.
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So you and I disagree about when the fork in the road occurs, because Mitch will still be the starter for two more years? Or because you want to see how this staff recruits and develops QB ' S in the long run? I disagree that QB play is the sole or even main reason we take the next step, or fail to. Our system does not require a stud QB. It requires a manager. One that ideally is also a run threat. Do you think Stave is much better than Mitch? I dont, and look where they are? We are getting closer, but they are still a step ahead of us. Yes we need better QB play, but Tbh I think we need better O line play and WR play just as much.

I agree that Mitch can get better, and that the team CAN take the next step with him. I believe we will with the (hopefully) upgraded WR ' S and RB's

I disagree that we are behind the curve because we don't know who our next starter is going to be in THREE years. Alot can happen. We may get a kid in this year that redshirts, than gets some limited time Mitch ' s senior year and starts as a rs Sophomore with three years in the system.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Honest question - How long are we supposed to wait for them to find/develop that guy? This is not meant at a shot at Kill but we have not had a lot of stability/above average play at the QB position since he got here. What is the window of time where people are going to be content to wait on this staff to find the QB/playmakers that can take this team to the next level, especially on the offensive side of the ball?

My answer to the above is that we need to see those players start to emerge in 2015. There are no more excuses for Leidner, if he has another level he should realize it next season. If he isn't the answer then they need to have the answer on the roster, if they don't then that is a failure on the recruiting front at the most important position on the team.
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You really think it's easy to find that person, that program-changing QB, recruiting to a couple of consecutive 3-9 seasons? Nelson COULD have been that QB, but elected to leave because he wasn't handed the reigns without earning it. I would EXPECT that Kill should be able to recruit a relatively high level QB (or at least better than what has been with the Gophers recently) after a couple of strong seasons like 8-5. Those just happened. Therefore, I would expect this year or next year to have much better success at landing that caliber of QB, who would likely make an impact in 2016 or 2017.

That's the thing that some just don't seem to quite get yet. Recruiting relationships are built with Soph and Jr's, sometimes with Seniors. The impact upperclassmen on the roster TODAY, were recruited coming off 3-9 seasons, maybe the 6-7 season after that. That's why this is a slow progressive progress.

The 2016 class should tell us more about this staff's ability to recruit. That class of guys will have seen this program go from 3-9 to 6-7 and then back-to-back 8-5 seasons. That's something you can sell to a kid NOW. A QB that would have made this year's team 10-3 instead of 8-5 would have likely come in with the 2012 or 2013 class at the latest. I just don't know what kind of elite player you could expect to land after going 3-9 for a few years?

I think this staff is doing just fine at bringing in quality players and I don't see a plateau in sight yet. If the 2016 and 2017 classes don't yield a notably higher caliber of player, I'll start to be more concerned that they could be reaching a plateau. Those classes are being sold on a program that is clearly on the rise. THAT is something to sell and I think they will.
 

I would like to see us add a big-time passer rusher as we build the house.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Honest question - How long are we supposed to wait for them to find/develop that guy? This is not meant at a shot at Kill but we have not had a lot of stability/above average play at the QB position since he got here. What is the window of time where people are going to be content to wait on this staff to find the QB/playmakers that can take this team to the next level, especially on the offensive side of the ball?

My answer to the above is that we need to see those players start to emerge in 2015. There are no more excuses for Leidner, if he has another level he should realize it next season. If he isn't the answer then they need to have the answer on the roster, if they don't then that is a failure on the recruiting front at the most important position on the team.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with the bold. He will be one of the more experienced quarterbacks in the B1G next year. He will be a redshirt junior, sitting on three years in the system, two years of meaningful and significant playing time, and a full year as the starter. Hopefully he plays like he did against Missouri more often than he plays like he did against Wisconsin.
 

John Galt said:
I would like to see us add a big-time passer rusher as we build the house.
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Not sure if pass rusher is the biggest priority. I like the guys we have on the outside. After watching this season, I think Elmore is going to be a stud. I'd like to see us get some beef at the DT position. Run stuffing guys who take up blockers so our speed at linebacker can be utilized. We have been playing small guys out of position for several years now.
 

I think Kill would agree that the foundation is set and it's time to build the house. He said from day 1 that his is a 5-7 year rebuild. He has said he believes this team will be better next year. He now will have three WR's who he says would have played and helped in the bowl game. He has a 4* RB who has been on campus doing his own thing around the program. He has another running back that he is excited about. He will have two Senior lockdown cornerbacks back with the team.

Kill expects Leidner to improve and be the guy. No doubt that if it doesn't happen, he will start to split time with Streveler or Perra.

I believe this team will be picked to finish top 2-3 in the West next year with a chance for it to come down to the Wisconsin game to decide it.
 

GopherinPhilly said:
Kid was a RS Sophomore this year with almost no talent at WR and we went to a top bowl.

I think next year we add one or two play makers on the outside and maintain our running game and we see a difference. Is the O-Line going to hold up? Is the D-Line going to hold up? Can we replace our MLB and Safeties? All of these questions are more pressing to me than the play of Mitch Leidner. If he doesn't improve, he will get passed next year and we move on. If he does improve, we are good next year and have a chance at a great season his SR year and hopefully our incoming/young QBs develope for depth and program continuety.
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Good points! The anti Leidner crowd refuse to take any of the things you pointed out into consideration. It is so much simpler to blame one person or one thing.
 

minibeaver said:
So you and I disagree about when the fork in the road occurs, because Mitch will still be the starter for two more years? Or because you want to see how this staff recruits and develops QB ' S in the long run? I disagree that QB play is the sole or even main reason we take the next step, or fail to. Our system does not require a stud QB. It requires a manager. One that ideally is also a run threat. Do you think Stave is much better than Mitch? I dont, and look where they are? We are getting closer, but they are still a step ahead of us. Yes we need better QB play, but Tbh I think we need better O line play and WR play just as much.

I agree that Mitch can get better, and that the team CAN take the next step with him. I believe we will with the (hopefully) upgraded WR ' S and RB's

I disagree that we are behind the curve because we don't know who our next starter is going to be in THREE years. Alot can happen. We may get a kid in this year that redshirts, than gets some limited time Mitch ' s senior year and starts as a rs Sophomore with three years in the system.
Click to expand...

QB may not be the "next" step, but it's a key step, and a step that needs to be taken before we even consider ourselves in the running for something bigger. Could it be done without a substantial upgrade at QB? Absolutely, per your example, Stave is in no way better than Leidner, his strength(s) are different than Mitch's. Both could and can get their team to sustain success levels with support at other positions.

My decision tree on throwing my love and affection at Jerry Kills feet with no possible recourse lays in that next QBs hands.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
QB may not be the "next" step, but it's a key step, and a step that needs to be taken before we even consider ourselves in the running for something bigger. Could it be done without a substantial upgrade at QB? Absolutely, per your example, Stave is in no way better than Leidner, his strength(s) are different than Mitch's. Both could and can get their team to sustain success levels with support at other positions.

My decision tree on throwing my love and affection at Jerry Kills feet with no possible recourse lays in that next QBs hands.
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QB is the next key step if you are willing to sit and wait for three years down the road. Mitch will be the starter next year and likely the next, unless someone really improved below him. We were in the running this year, so I think we will be considered in the running the next two years. It's a team game and Mitch helped us to the West Division pseudo championship game and a New Years Day Bowl. We may have gotten over the hump with competent WR's on the team. IMO the WR position was the issue this year and not the QB.
 

GopherinPhilly said:
Kid was a RS Sophomore this year with almost no talent at WR and we went to a top bowl.

I think next year we add one or two play makers on the outside and maintain our running game and we see a difference. Is the O-Line going to hold up? Is the D-Line going to hold up? Can we replace our MLB and Safeties? All of these questions are more pressing to me than the play of Mitch Leidner. If he doesn't improve, he will get passed next year and we move on. If he does improve, we are good next year and have a chance at a great season his SR year and hopefully our incoming/young QBs develope for depth and program continuety.
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Urban Meyer has said it multiple times when asked about Cardale Jones. The quarterback is a product of the people around him. Give Mitch time and some WR's and he'll be above average in the country which is all we need with the running game and D.



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gopherlaney said:
Urban Meyer has said it multiple times when asked about Cardale Jones. The quarterback is a product of the people around him. Give Mitch time and some WR's and he'll be above average in the country which is all we need with the running game and D.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Easy to say that when you #3 guy is better then the starter at most of the other schools in the country but there is also some definite truth in what he is saying. If you gave me the choice right now of Mitch or Jones I would take Jones in a heart beat.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Honest question - How long are we supposed to wait for them to find/develop that guy? This is not meant at a shot at Kill but we have not had a lot of stability/above average play at the QB position since he got here. What is the window of time where people are going to be content to wait on this staff to find the QB/playmakers that can take this team to the next level, especially on the offensive side of the ball?

My answer to the above is that we need to see those players start to emerge in 2015. There are no more excuses for Leidner, if he has another level he should realize it next season. If he isn't the answer then they need to have the answer on the roster, if they don't then that is a failure on the recruiting front at the most important position on the team.
Click to expand...

Ditto - and it will not be easy to replace one of the best running backs in the nation, one who has had almost every carry for two years, nor replacing Maxx or Wilson. I don't see next year as a good year, maybe 6-6, but 2016 looks very good because of schedule changes.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Easy to say that when you #3 guy is better then the starter at most of the other schools in the country but there is also some definite truth in what he is saying. If you gave me the choice right now of Mitch or Jones I would take Jones in a heart beat.
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I agree, but I would take Mitch and their skill position guys over Cardale and our skill position guys.


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I hope that we are better next year (as does everyone on the Hole). I'm not sure how big the step was that we took this year but there are some very good signs. Early on Kill talked about us not having any margin for error. The Nebraska game showed me that we now do have some. Getting a field goal blocked and returned for a TD would have crushed us in the past. Recovering from that against a quality opponent and then winning the game says that we have made huge progress. How much will we progress next year? Hard to tell but I'm thinking that we will be better, 9+ wins is my wish. We now have some margin for error. Go Gophers!
 

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