The dichotomy in a pro sports town

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rugger14

rugger14

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So most of us are Twin Cities sports fans so we are fans of the pro sports and the Gophers. It never ceases to amaze me how people do not understand how mich harder it is for the Gophers to turn a program around vs the pros. Not even close.

Pros: you suck and you get the first pick
College: you suck and no recruits

Pros: salary cap: you can only pay so much

College: NIL whatever we can afford and oh my gosh the best teams have all the $$$

MEDIA COVERAGE

PROS: A small number of teams and most teams get media coverage for every game.

College football: only the top 25 teams are guaranteed to get coverage.

Bottom line: pro sports try to create parity while college sports reward winning. It is impossible to hold pro and college sports.to that same standard.
 

Concur. And when getting down to individual teams, major markets will always be the tougher sell.

Been gone from Atlanta for over 30 years and yet the Dogs find a way to dominate on the college side of the game...even though the pro-sports side is well represented.

A lot depends on the rabidness of the fanbase. The Gophers would be happy with just a good case of distemper but you get my drift. Just a harder sell with the competition for the sports dollar.
 



the one common denominator is good leadership.

If a pro team has a good coach and good front office, they can draft better players, make smart trades, and sign free agents who fit their system. If a team has a bad coach and bad front office, they are not going to succeed.

in college, if you have a good coaching staff, good recruiters, and support from the AD and administration, you are in a better position to succeed. if you have a few rich boosters to kick in NIL, that certainly helps. but all the NIL money in the world will not turn a bad coach into a good coach or a good recruiter.
 




The pro sports town thing is real. It shows up in a variety of ways all over the place:

First, the double standard between the Gophers and the Vikings. Particularly in the media. If you turn on the local sports in June the lead story is the Vikings while the Gophers often don't get a feature on the Friday night before a game. The local media types are consistently fanboying the Viking players while their limited discussion of Gopher football is typically mock and ridicule. When the Gophers are winning the question is always "who did they play?" That question is never asked of the Vikings. They are above scrutiny. When they lose it's sarcasm and ridicule. This constant negativity influences potential fans and turns off potential recruits.

Second, all these great Fortune 500 companies that we keep celebrating are much more inclined to put their dollars towards the local pro teams than U of M athletics. The U of M can't even raise the money to pay off the athletes village and these corporations are doing nothing to help the NIL fund. The big business crowd set Gopher football back in the 80's by coercing them into the Metrodome which was clearly built for the Vikings and Twins. Listen to Glen Mason talk about being a third wheel in that dump and not even having access to their own locker room.

Third, there is truth to the fact that there are no successful college programs in major metro areas. Washington is having a moment but they play in a weak conference, they are on the west coast with better proximity to talent and they poached a generational QB out of Indiana. Let's see how that goes when they play more physical teams each week and do so with a lesser QB. Aside from USC's run with Pete Carroll, it's hard to name a successful college program in a big city.

Finally, there is so much to do in the Twin Cities and only so many dollars. The Vikings, despite being very average for years, sell out every game at outrageous prices. The Wild, despite being bad for years, sell out every game. The Twins, despite being a .500 team this summer did very well at the box office and the T-Wolves have a loyal following that keeps coming back. That disposable income goes to college sports everywhere else in the Big Ten. The idea that Gopher fans are going to pony up for the NIL fund won't happen.

There are a lot of issues but dismissing the large metro area is a mistake.
 

(Posted this first part before). Washington just went to 11-0. They play in a very similar sized metro area with a campus in the largest city in the state. They have extremely popular NFL, MLB, and NHL teams. They have one of the two highest drawing MLS and WNBA teams as well. Not only that, their head coach is from a small town in South Dakota just a few miles from the Minnesota border.

Since 1990, they've had seven conference titles (playing for 8 this week) and 1 national title (with another they could, but don't claim). They've been to five Rose Bowls in that time and one CFP appearance. They are likely to get into the CFP this year.

We have nothing.
 



Washington only disproves that being a pro sports town in of itself is sufficient to preclude you from being competitive.

Clearly then, there are more factors at play here that have prevented us from having a modern history closer to Washington’s.

And it is perfectly valid to conclude that being a pro sports town can still be a contributing factor that isn’t acting alone.
 

Interesting thought experiment:

what would’ve been the outcomes if Washington and Gophers simply traded starting QB’s this year?

He was at Indiana before transferring there.
 

LongSuffering said:
The pro sports town thing is real. It shows up in a variety of ways all over the place:

First, the double standard between the Gophers and the Vikings. Particularly in the media. If you turn on the local sports in June the lead story is the Vikings while the Gophers often don't get a feature on the Friday night before a game. The local media types are consistently fanboying the Viking players while their limited discussion of Gopher football is typically mock and ridicule. When the Gophers are winning the question is always "who did they play?" That question is never asked of the Vikings. They are above scrutiny. When they lose it's sarcasm and ridicule. This constant negativity influences potential fans and turns off potential recruits.

Second, all these great Fortune 500 companies that we keep celebrating are much more inclined to put their dollars towards the local pro teams than U of M athletics. The U of M can't even raise the money to pay off the athletes village and these corporations are doing nothing to help the NIL fund. The big business crowd set Gopher football back in the 80's by coercing them into the Metrodome which was clearly built for the Vikings and Twins. Listen to Glen Mason talk about being a third wheel in that dump and not even having access to their own locker room.

Third, there is truth to the fact that there are no successful college programs in major metro areas. Washington is having a moment but they play in a weak conference, they are on the west coast with better proximity to talent and they poached a generational QB out of Indiana. Let's see how that goes when they play more physical teams each week and do so with a lesser QB. Aside from USC's run with Pete Carroll, it's hard to name a successful college program in a big city.

Finally, there is so much to do in the Twin Cities and only so many dollars. The Vikings, despite being very average for years, sell out every game at outrageous prices. The Wild, despite being bad for years, sell out every game. The Twins, despite being a .500 team this summer did very well at the box office and the T-Wolves have a loyal following that keeps coming back. That disposable income goes to college sports everywhere else in the Big Ten. The idea that Gopher fans are going to pony up for the NIL fund won't happen.

There are a lot of issues but dismissing the large metro area is a mistake.
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I am not buying your argument. If the U was located in either Mankato or St. Cloud we would still have the same issues. I know people who would whine that it is too far to drive. This is a unique area and a unique situation. Minnesota is different from most places.
 

With a large group of our fan base, we kind of deserve what we get. It’s always an excuse or an apology or some reason why we can’t win and it’s all BS.
 



MplsGopher said:
Interesting thought experiment:

what would’ve been the outcomes if Washington and Gophers simply traded starting QB’s this year?

He was at Indiana before transferring there.
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Might be more interesting to trade coaching staffs.
 

Michigan is not in a major city. Ann Arbor is a unique college town 45-60 minutes outside of the city center. (That until recently people avoided) And, Michigan has been a dominant program since the early 20th century. Colorado is 40 minutes outside of Denver in an affluent college town. Furthermore, with the exception of a short period of time with Bill McCartney in the early 80's (and maybe Rick Neuheisal in the mid 90's, Colorado has been a doormat. Miami had a run many years ago but nothing since and USC has been irrelevant pre and post Pete Carroll.

Washington has fluttered around .500 for decades with some really good seasons and some abysmal seasons. Through it all they've had a unique and beautiful stadium of their own with a cool culture around it. The Seahawks were a late expansion team and they were awful for a long time before the got good. The Kraken are late arrivals. The Mariners are fine but it's not a baseball town like a St Louis.

Maybe Seattle is the exception to the rule. I'd take their level of success. But I do think they have some huge advantages over Minnesota; climate (sort of), facilities and, mostly, access to the California recruiting base. Not to mention the Pacific Islands.

Certainly, Minnesota has a host of other challenges but you have to admit the media bias towards pro sports and the host of things to spend ones money on don't help.
 

You all forgot University of Cincinnati. Bengals. UC in Championship series. Major corps hq in Cincinnati include Krogers, Proctor & Gamble, and American Financial. None who support UC in any large way. Your argument is BS
 


LongSuffering said:
Michigan is not in a major city. Ann Arbor is a unique college town 45-60 minutes outside of the city center. (That until recently people avoided) And, Michigan has been a dominant program since the early 20th century. Colorado is 40 minutes outside of Denver in an affluent college town. Furthermore, with the exception of a short period of time with Bill McCartney in the early 80's (and maybe Rick Neuheisal in the mid 90's, Colorado has been a doormat. Miami had a run many years ago but nothing since and USC has been irrelevant pre and post Pete Carroll.

Washington has fluttered around .500 for decades with some really good seasons and some abysmal seasons. Through it all they've had a unique and beautiful stadium of their own with a cool culture around it. The Seahawks were a late expansion team and they were awful for a long time before the got good. The Kraken are late arrivals. The Mariners are fine but it's not a baseball town like a St Louis.

Maybe Seattle is the exception to the rule. I'd take their level of success. But I do think they have some huge advantages over Minnesota; climate (sort of), facilities and, mostly, access to the California recruiting base. Not to mention the Pacific Islands.

Certainly, Minnesota has a host of other challenges but you have to admit the media bias towards pro sports and the host of things to spend ones money on don't help.
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The only really bad period Washington has had in the last 35 years or so was the Ty Willingham era, and yes, they were awful then. Other than that, they've been a good to very good program. The Seahawks are almost 50 years old now. Same with the Mariners. The Sounders draw 32,000 a game - 2nd or third in MLS. Even the WNBA Storm averages close to 10,000 a game. Pro sports are very popular in Seattle. It does not hinder the Huskies.
 

Second, all these great Fortune 500 companies that we keep celebrating are much more inclined to put their dollars towards the local pro teams than U of M athletics. The U of M can't even raise the money to pay off the athletes village and these corporations are doing nothing to help the NIL fund. The big business crowd set Gopher football back in the 80's by coercing them into the Metrodome which was clearly built for the Vikings and Twins. Listen to Glen Mason talk about being a third wheel in that dump and not even having access to their own locker room.
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It's like a broken record around here. CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY NIL MONEY. IT DOES NOTHING TO INCREASE SHAREHOLDER RETURN. Wealthy individuals, some who may have founded companies from which they acquired their wealth do.

This isn't back in the day when local major companies were run by the Pillsburys or Daytons. Corporations are run by boards of directors and CEO's who rarely have personal ties to the area or to the U.
 

@disco if Seattle had no pro sports, then Washington would've been Oregon instead of Oregon.

Therefore, it does hinder them. 10-7 is 3. 10-3 is 7. Both are less than 10, even though 7 is greater than 3.

Prove me wrong.
 

NIL is just bag men. It's the exact same thing.

If your school had a strong network of bag men, then you now have a good amount of NIL.

If you didn't, then you don't.
 


60 thousand fans paid an average of about 300 bucks (plus concession spending) to sit in the world's ugliest sports arena and watch the mediocre Vikings play the lowly Bears on a Monday night. I'm betting that a survey of Minnesota sports fans would show that a high percentage of them follow the Vikings and not the Gophers. Certainly the media believe this
 


MplsGopher said:
@disco if Seattle had no pro sports, then Washington would've been Oregon instead of Oregon.

Therefore, it does hinder them. 10-7 is 3. 10-3 is 7. Both are less than 10, even though 7 is greater than 3.

Prove me wrong.
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Step away from the open can of paint.
 

So we agree that being in a pro-sports town is a hindrance over time.

Otherwise Washington would’ve been consistently great, not just periodically.


Certainly, each market is unique. Some pro-sports towns are more of a hindrance over time than others.

Indeed, the world is not black and white. Nuance is abundant and necessary.
 

I agree that pro & college are two VERY different sports. I disagree that they both can't be successful (as others have argued). I doesn't work when they try to "cohabitate" like at the Dome. We learned that the hard way. But there are regular threads about how great the student sectioin has been recently, and the stadium generally sells out. Gone are the days of Kinnick North. So, I think there is sufficient interest and fandom for both, and success for each isn't mutually exclusive.
 

Gopherchase said:
With a large group of our fan base, we kind of deserve what we get. It’s always an excuse or an apology or some reason why we can’t win and it’s all BS.
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So then, fire that large group of our fan base, Gopherchase. i’ve been a Gopher fan since I was 10 years old… that was 66 years ago and I am damn proud to be a “bs” fan that has followed this Gopher football team from the Memorial Stadium “brick house” days through the “damn dome” era through the thrill of returning to the campus in TCF Bank Stadium and now The Huntington Bank Stadium.

Yes, people like me are full of “bs”, beaten down, and are just plain filled with acceptance of and love for Golden Gopher football.

Yep, I am the walrus and the plight of Gopher Football is due to my high degree of “bs-ism”. I’ll own that. I can see that to a person such as yourself: a person with high expectations such as yourself is probably totally correct in referring to fans such as myself as having been the problem with Gopher football for all these years.

I really can’t see that your brand of high expectations “bs” is one bit more effective than my brand of “bs…” though…

Just stay with it Gopherchase.
You probably are correct about a “bs” level fan such as me.

Yet, from the tone of your “bs,” I’d rather be full of my “bs…”

;0)


Gopherchase said:
With a large group of our fan base, we kind of deserve what we get. It’s always an excuse or an apology or some reason why we can’t win and it’s all BS.
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rugger14 said:
So most of us are Twin Cities sports fans so we are fans of the pro sports and the Gophers. It never ceases to amaze me how people do not understand how mich harder it is for the Gophers to turn a program around vs the pros. Not even close.

Pros: you suck and you get the first pick
College: you suck and no recruits

Pros: salary cap: you can only pay so much

College: NIL whatever we can afford and oh my gosh the best teams have all the $$$

MEDIA COVERAGE

PROS: A small number of teams and most teams get media coverage for every game.

College football: only the top 25 teams are guaranteed to get coverage.

Bottom line: pro sports try to create parity while college sports reward winning. It is impossible to hold pro and college sports.to that same standard.
Click to expand...
College is more like a capitalist system and pro sports is more like a socialist system.
 

^ very much true, in that cheating, bribery, and anti-competitive unfairness are hallmarks of capitalism! :devilish:
 

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