Tharpe Update

"Rupp Arena is completely unimpressive in person. The only thing impressive is that it's big and it's full. You can say that about a lot of places. It has all the charm and personality of an airport hangar."

I second that. That's the same impression I had when I saw UK play EKU a few years back when Tubby was still at UK. I was surprised what a dumpy, "blah" arena it was. It has the charm and ambiance of a peanut-filled tird. Certainly not a sparkling arena that befits the tradition of UK.

That happens when they play teams like EKU but not when they play UNC, Louisville, IU, Kansas or several SEC opponents (Florida, Tennessee, Arkansas, Vandy) who are "big" conference rivals.

The atmosphere is electric (often) but sometimes the electricity is turned off by a weak opponent.
 

Rupp Arena is always named among the Top 10 college arenas by knowledgeable experts like Bilas, Vitale, et al.

Not everyone has to agree but those kind of folks know their stuff pretty well.

If Duke or Kentucky played in the Metrodome, Dicky V would crown it the best basketball facility in the nation, because of its unique character. Sorry, doesn't fly. Williams is one of the greatest college basketball arenas in the country, and does nothing to deter recruits. Again, maybe fan support isn't at the level it was when Clem was here, but I predict that a good season under Tubby this year could change that in a big way.
 

Tharpe (Summary Of Ratings)

... 6-0 PG Naadir Tharpe of Brewster Academy (No. 66 ESPN, No. 89 Prep Stars, No. 91 Rivals, No. 94 Scout, No. 94 Hoopmasters…No. 2 Fifth Year Player by Hoop Scoop) ...
 

That happens when they play teams like EKU but not when they play UNC, Louisville, IU, Kansas or several SEC opponents (Florida, Tennessee, Arkansas, Vandy) who are "big" conference rivals.

The atmosphere is electric (often) but sometimes the electricity is turned off by a weak opponent.

They were playing UF when I was there. I was as unimpressed as SS. You've got blue glasses on when it comes to this FOT.
 

They were playing UF when I was there. I was as unimpressed as SS. You've got blue glasses on when it comes to this FOT.

Perhaps. I remember UK/Fla games in 2000 and 2003 (for EG) quite a bit differently.
 


Tharpe Update from today on ESPN

Now that Austin Rivers has committed to Duke and fellow 2011 PG Quinn Cook looking hard at several schools (including Kansas), where does Kansas coach Bill Self turn to? The Jayhawks need a point guard in the 2011 recruiting class and as commits start to drop, the list grows smaller by the week.

Kansas has begun recruiting Naadir Tharpe and Adam Zagoria at Zagsblog.net confirms the Jayhawks have targeted the point guard for their 2011 class; assistant Joe Dooley visited Brewster Academy this week.

Self will also likely be making significant pushes to land point guard Quinn Cook, who is also considering joining Austin Rivers in a Blue Devil dream backcourt. and Naadir Tharpe. Finding a lead guard was high on Self's priority list even before Josh Selby's eligibility started to come into question.

Self is still after several other highly touted recruits (small forwards LeBryan Nash and Ben McLemore and center Mikael Hopkins, to name a few), but the point guard position could have most of his attention at the moment, with more and more lead guards committing elsewhere.
 


Now that Austin Rivers has committed to Duke and fellow 2011 PG Quinn Cook looking hard at several schools (including Kansas), where does Kansas coach Bill Self turn to? The Jayhawks need a point guard in the 2011 recruiting class and as commits start to drop, the list grows smaller by the week.

Kansas has begun recruiting Naadir Tharpe and Adam Zagoria at Zagsblog.net confirms the Jayhawks have targeted the point guard for their 2011 class; assistant Joe Dooley visited Brewster Academy this week.

Self will also likely be making significant pushes to land point guard Quinn Cook, who is also considering joining Austin Rivers in a Blue Devil dream backcourt. and Naadir Tharpe. Finding a lead guard was high on Self's priority list even before Josh Selby's eligibility started to come into question.

Self is still after several other highly touted recruits (small forwards LeBryan Nash and Ben McLemore and center Mikael Hopkins, to name a few), but the point guard position could have most of his attention at the moment, with more and more lead guards committing elsewhere.

Hopkins committed to Georgetown this week. He and Cook were formerly HS teammates at DeMatha (I think). Cook is now at Oak Hill VA.
 

Great contribution. Congratulations.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Well, since you're convinced of the impending doom of gopher basketball, I figure my contribution was about as feasible. :rolleyes:
 



I'll bet Tharpe signs with KU. Hope he comes here, but Tubby has not been terribly impressive recruiting out of state talent in his 4 years here.
 

I'll bet Tharpe signs with KU. Hope he comes here, but Tubby has not been terribly impressive recruiting out of state talent in his 4 years here.

Out of state recruits:

2008 - Devoe Joseph (Canada POY) over Texas and Kansas
Ralph Sampson III (All-Metro Atlanta) over Maryland, Ga Tech, and Kentucky
Colton Iverson (SD Mr Basketball) over Florida (et al)

2009 - Justin Cobbs (John Wooden POY in Calif) over Pac-10 schools

2010 - Austin Hollins (All-City Memphis) over Memphis and Arkansas
Maurice Walker (2009 Ontario Mr Basketball in Canada) over Big East schools
Elliott Eliason (2x Gatorade POY in Nebraska) over Stanford

I guess I disagree with your broad brush above.
 

Out of state recruits:

2008 - Devoe Joseph (Canada POY) over Texas and Kansas
Ralph Sampson III (All-Metro Atlanta) over Maryland, Ga Tech, and Kentucky
Colton Iverson (SD Mr Basketball) over Florida (et al)

2009 - Justin Cobbs (John Wooden POY in Calif) over Pac-10 schools

2010 - Austin Hollins (All-City Memphis) over Memphis and Arkansas
Maurice Walker (2009 Ontario Mr Basketball in Canada) over Big East schools
Elliott Eliason (2x Gatorade POY in Nebraska) over Stanford

I guess I disagree with your broad brush above.

Devoe - good, not great as of yet
Sampson - same
Iverson - decent banger

Cobbs - no good and gone

2010 - have not stepped on the court yet.

No game changers in the bunch as of yet.

Not a difference maker in the bunch, IMO.
 

recruiting

I know we are all just offering opinions here but mine is that anybody's arena is so far down the list of why someone is interested in a school as a possible recruit. It's just not on the radar.

It's so many different reasons for different people but how good are you (your team) or will we be if I come is number one. Will I play right away? How are you going to use me? Who is the coach? Can I trust him? What is his reputation? Will he get me to the NBA? (Do you think Rick Barnes really thinks his job is to prepare players to be successful in the NBA? He's saying it because kids are dumb enough to believe him. They think he is their ticket. Calapari says it but he delivers because he's got players at a whole other level) I think Tubby considers himself a teacher, an educator. He doesn't see his job as preparing players for the NBA. He sees it as doing the best he can for Minnesota and building boys into men....if the NBA is realistic he'll help all he can but it is not the purpose of college basketball to him. So, we are not going to get the one and dones. I'm fine with that. Those are 5 star guys who typically are leaving soon.

Tharpe has academics high on his list. Climate is a pretty big factor in Minnesota. Where do the players live?. Do I know any teammates? Can anybody else play? Do you provide tutors? Different kids got 100 reasons they pick a school. How many people come to the games is a question but not are the seats comfortable for the fans or do the suites have TV's.

I kinda got off track but if I list the 100 reasons more important than an arena why someone is choosing a school....we'll be here too long. Will I play? Will we be good? Don't think it goes much beyond that really.

If we lose out to a Big Ten school that hurts. But if a kid goes to Texas...could be lots of reasons. He got conned? It is warmer. They promised something we were not willing to? Who knows? But it wasn't that their arena is more sparkly.
 



Devoe - good, not great as of yet
Sampson - same
Iverson - decent banger

Cobbs - no good and gone

2010 - have not stepped on the court yet.

No game changers in the bunch as of yet.

Not a difference maker in the bunch, IMO.

Yet, all are good "out of state" recruits.
 

Yet, all are good "out of state" recruits.

Tubby is paid big time money, and IMO, part of that is big time out of state recruiting. Our opinions can differ on what is impressive out of state recruiting. Mine is that is has not been toat impressive, obviously you are happy with how he has done. Who's to say who's right or wrong. I just thought that by year 4 there would be big boys coming into the program from all over the country, and that has not happened yet. Maybe my expectations of Smith were just too high.
 

My expectation was that Tubby would get this program to where it was "light years" (to borrow a phrase from Brew) from the mess he inherited before then getting the Gophers to the NCAA Tournament on a consistent basis. He accomplished that in very short order, much shorter than I anticipated. Didn't realistically expect Gophers to be competing for a NCAA bid until his 3rd or 4th season, and we were there in his 2nd. I expect the program's progression will continue this season, most notably in the Big Ten standings and the NCAA tourney.

Have never been one to get hung up on the number of stars in front of a guy's name, and I say that believing Tubby has brought plenty of "Big Ten talent" to Minnesota. Iverson, Sampson, Joseph & Williams are certainly Big Ten talents, and they still have plenty of room to improve. My hunch is after seeing Mbakwe a few times in real games I'll be adding him to that list rather quickly. I get a hoot out of folks who think the Gophers are seriously devoid of talent. We're not at the raw talent level of Sparty or Ohio State, but there's plenty of talent on the Gopher roster to compete with everyone in the Big Ten.
 

Couple thoughts on Tubby Smith, the Barn, recruiting, etc.

1. Take a look at the history of Tubby's recruiting at Kentucky and I think you can get a pretty good idea of the type of recruits that fit most comfortably with his coaching style/personality. While he had his fair share of top-end recruits, I would say that the problems/disappointments/drama (Rashard Carruth, Marvin Stone, Jason Parker, Randolph Morris, Joe Crawford, lesser degree Rondo) outweighed the successes with the true top-enders (Keith Bogans, Tayshaun Prince).

When you think of the prototypical Kentucky players during Tubby's stint, the names of Chuck Hayes, Cliff Hawkins, Kelenna Azuibke, Gerald Fitch, Jules Camara, Patrick Sparks come to mind. While some of these guys were very solid recruits (according to the numbers) others were overlooked or lightly regarded.

Even while recruiting at one of the true national programs, it felt from afar that Tubby was more comfortable and did better with the mid-level to lesser regarded recruits. He's not the only coach to operate like this-consider Bobby Knight, Gary Williams, Jamie Dixon, Bo Ryan. You can win and succeed with those type of players, but it may not be as flashy or consistently hitting the heights that occurs in other locales.

2. How many programs are truly national programs, able to recruit and procure players seemingly at their will, no matter the locale? I don't need all my fingers to count them out-UNC, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Syracuse, UConn, Michigan State. You have upstarts such as Ohio State, Villanova, Texas, Florida, Memphis, Washington, Baylor who are attempting to join those ranks.

As I see it, to break into these ranks you either have to establish or have established long term success on the court to be a national program. To join that crew, you have to be able to recruit your backyard extremely well (such as Izzo at Michigan State) or find a way to strike out nationally.

So how do head coaches at Texas, Baylor, Washington, Kansas State, etc., with limited college bb history/success break those ranks? With top flight talent. How do they get that talent? By establishing relationships, one presumes with AAU coaches, talent brokers, siblings, etc. etc.

I'm certainly not an insider, but I've read enough to figure out that Tubby Smith is one of the very few coaches who doesn't play this game with the AAU coaches/talent brokers. So, if he's not playing the game (which I admire), how is he going to get the elite talent that's wrapped up in the twisted system? He's likely not going to. He's going to have to rely on getting homegrown/midwest talent (Williams, Coleman, R. White, Mbawke, Eliason, Iverson) and players with pretty solid family backgrounds/basketball background (Austin Hollins, Sampson III, perhaps Andre Hollins).

3. While a new practice facility is likely to come in very handy in future recruiting, as with others I don't see a new arena to automatically open the doors to McDonald's All-Americans unless Tubby starts recruiting differently. One need to look out the front doors of Williams Arena to see that a new stadium/arena does not overcome everything. And if you think a new practice facility or spanking new arena would have been the difference for Cory Joseph coming here, well. . .I think you need to examine the chummy relationship between the Findlay coach and Rick Barnes a bit closer.
 

"....I think Tubby considers himself a teacher, an educator. He doesn't see his job as preparing players for the NBA. He sees it as doing the best he can for Minnesota and building boys into men....if the NBA is realistic he'll help all he can but it is not the purpose of college basketball to him. So, we are not going to get the one and dones. I'm fine with that. Those are 5 star guys who typically are leaving soon
."

+1
 

My expectation was that Tubby would get this program to where it was "light years" (to borrow a phrase from Brew) from the mess he inherited before then getting the Gophers to the NCAA Tournament on a consistent basis. He accomplished that in very short order, much shorter than I anticipated. Didn't realistically expect Gophers to be competing for a NCAA bid until his 3rd or 4th season, and we were there in his 2nd. I expect the program's progression will continue this season, most notably in the Big Ten standings and the NCAA tourney.

Have never been one to get hung up on the number of stars in front of a guy's name, and I say that believing Tubby has brought plenty of "Big Ten talent" to Minnesota. Iverson, Sampson, Joseph & Williams are certainly Big Ten talents, and they still have plenty of room to improve. My hunch is after seeing Mbakwe a few times in real games I'll be adding him to that list rather quickly. I get a hoot out of folks who think the Gophers are seriously devoid of talent. We're not at the raw talent level of Sparty or Ohio State, but there's plenty of talent on the Gopher roster to compete with everyone in the Big Ten.

My expectations are 25 W seasons, B10 title every 3 or 4 years, B10T championship every 3 or 4 years, Gopher players making NBA regularly, and NCAA Sweet 16 every other year.

He did it at Tulsa, Georgia, and Kentucky - why NOT Minnesota?
 

Tubby is paid big time money, and IMO, part of that is big time out of state recruiting. Our opinions can differ on what is impressive out of state recruiting. Mine is that is has not been toat impressive, obviously you are happy with how he has done. Who's to say who's right or wrong. I just thought that by year 4 there would be big boys coming into the program from all over the country, and that has not happened yet. Maybe my expectations of Smith were just too high.

Never said "impressive" just GOOD out-of-state recruits.
 

Couple thoughts on Tubby Smith, the Barn, recruiting, etc.

1. Take a look at the history of Tubby's recruiting at Kentucky and I think you can get a pretty good idea of the type of recruits that fit most comfortably with his coaching style/personality. While he had his fair share of top-end recruits, I would say that the problems/disappointments/drama (Rashard Carruth, Marvin Stone, Jason Parker, Randolph Morris, Joe Crawford, lesser degree Rondo) outweighed the successes with the true top-enders (Keith Bogans, Tayshaun Prince).

When you think of the prototypical Kentucky players during Tubby's stint, the names of Chuck Hayes, Cliff Hawkins, Kelenna Azuibke, Gerald Fitch, Jules Camara, Patrick Sparks come to mind. While some of these guys were very solid recruits (according to the numbers) others were overlooked or lightly regarded.

Even while recruiting at one of the true national programs, it felt from afar that Tubby was more comfortable and did better with the mid-level to lesser regarded recruits. He's not the only coach to operate like this-consider Bobby Knight, Gary Williams, Jamie Dixon, Bo Ryan. You can win and succeed with those type of players, but it may not be as flashy or consistently hitting the heights that occurs in other locales.

2. How many programs are truly national programs, able to recruit and procure players seemingly at their will, no matter the locale? I don't need all my fingers to count them out-UNC, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Syracuse, UConn, Michigan State. You have upstarts such as Ohio State, Villanova, Texas, Florida, Memphis, Washington, Baylor who are attempting to join those ranks.

As I see it, to break into these ranks you either have to establish or have established long term success on the court to be a national program. To join that crew, you have to be able to recruit your backyard extremely well (such as Izzo at Michigan State) or find a way to strike out nationally.

So how do head coaches at Texas, Baylor, Washington, Kansas State, etc., with limited college bb history/success break those ranks? With top flight talent. How do they get that talent? By establishing relationships, one presumes with AAU coaches, talent brokers, siblings, etc. etc.

I'm certainly not an insider, but I've read enough to figure out that Tubby Smith is one of the very few coaches who doesn't play this game with the AAU coaches/talent brokers. So, if he's not playing the game (which I admire), how is he going to get the elite talent that's wrapped up in the twisted system? He's likely not going to. He's going to have to rely on getting homegrown/midwest talent (Williams, Coleman, R. White, Mbawke, Eliason, Iverson) and players with pretty solid family backgrounds/basketball background (Austin Hollins, Sampson III, perhaps Andre Hollins).

3. While a new practice facility is likely to come in very handy in future recruiting, as with others I don't see a new arena to automatically open the doors to McDonald's All-Americans unless Tubby starts recruiting differently. One need to look out the front doors of Williams Arena to see that a new stadium/arena does not overcome everything. And if you think a new practice facility or spanking new arena would have been the difference for Cory Joseph coming here, well. . .I think you need to examine the chummy relationship between the Findlay coach and Rick Barnes a bit closer.

Chuck Hayes was Parade HS A-A and Calif Mr Basketball. Not overlooked at all. Kelenna Azubuike was Street & Smith HS A-A and 3x All-State in OK. Not overlooked either. Both were Top 25 rated recruits.

Cliff Hawkins also Parade HS A-A. Gerald Fitch POY in GA. Jules Camara Top 40 rated recruit. Patrick Sparks was leading scorer (31 ppg) in KY. All were well regarded as HS recruits.

Carrith and Parker were busts, no doubt. OTC activities were a major factor for both.

The Gophers need to sign Top 25 recruiting classes most years.
 

Chuck Hayes was Parade HS A-A and Calif Mr Basketball. Not overlooked at all. Kelenna Azubuike was Street & Smith HS A-A and 3x All-State in OK. Not overlooked either. Both were Top 25 rated recruits.

Cliff Hawkins also Parade HS A-A. Gerald Fitch POY in GA. Jules Camara Top 40 rated recruit. Patrick Sparks was leading scorer (31 ppg) in KY. All were well regarded as HS recruits.

Carrith and Parker were busts, no doubt. OTC activities were a major factor for both.

The Gophers need to sign Top 25 recruiting classes most years.


I'm fairly certain coolhand said "SOME" of the guys that he listed were overlooked.
 

Hey Smartest Guy in the Room,
I went to the RSCI database to get those numbers. Neither Hayes nor Azubuike were consensus top 25 recruits. In fact let me break it down a bit more:
Azuibke (4 sources used-Hoop Scoop, Dave Telep, Prep Stars, School Sports)
range from #23 (PS) to #50 (HS)-overall ranking #31

Hayes (6 sources used-Hoop Scoop, Dave Telep, Prep Stars, Sporting News, Van Coleman, Bob Gibbons)
range from #25 (DT) to #80 (HS)-overall ranking #46

I'll go down the list for you. . .
Hawkins-overall ranking #36 (2000)
Camara-overall ranking #31 (1999)
Fitch-no where to be found
Sparks-transferred in from Western Kentucky, couldn't have been that highly regarded coming out of HS if neither Kentucky, Louisville, Indiana, or several other major conference D-1 schools in the area didn't offer him a scholarship

The larger point, which shockingly seems to have been missed, is that the recruits Tubby seemed to have the most success with at Kentucky were not the consensus top 25, McD's All-Americans but rather the next level of recruit-those recruits that fall somewhere between top 30 to top 75.

By and large, I think Tubby has the most success with hard working, hard nosed talented but not elite talent type of recruits. It seems that his history seems to indicate so.
 



Hey Smartest Guy in the Room,
I went to the RSCI database to get those numbers. Neither Hayes nor Azubuike were consensus top 25 recruits. In fact let me break it down a bit more:
Azuibke (4 sources used-Hoop Scoop, Dave Telep, Prep Stars, School Sports)
range from #23 (PS) to #50 (HS)-overall ranking #31

Hayes (6 sources used-Hoop Scoop, Dave Telep, Prep Stars, Sporting News, Van Coleman, Bob Gibbons)
range from #25 (DT) to #80 (HS)-overall ranking #46

I'll go down the list for you. . .
Hawkins-overall ranking #36 (2000)
Camara-overall ranking #31 (1999)
Fitch-no where to be found
Sparks-transferred in from Western Kentucky, couldn't have been that highly regarded coming out of HS if neither Kentucky, Louisville, Indiana, or several other major conference D-1 schools in the area didn't offer him a scholarship

The larger point, which shockingly seems to have been missed, is that the recruits Tubby seemed to have the most success with at Kentucky were not the consensus top 25, McD's All-Americans but rather the next level of recruit-those recruits that fall somewhere between top 30 to top 75.

By and large, I think Tubby has the most success with hard working, hard nosed talented but not elite talent type of recruits. It seems that his history seems to indicate so.

I use Gibbons' FINAL rankings. He's the best and I have his ranking going back 30 years.

Hayes was leading rebounder at ABCD camp in summer 2000. Recruited by Kansas, UCLA, etc. Top 25 by Gibbons and others. Overlooked?

Azuibuike was leading scorer in OK and picked 3-time 1st team All-State (only OK player ever). Recruited by Big 12, Big 10, ACC schools. Top 25 by Gibbons and others. Overlooked?

Hawkins was Mr Basketball in VA (and HS A-A). Hardly overlooked. Top 30 by Gibbons.

Camara was 1998 (not 1999) so I can tell you don't know much about him.

Fitch was POY in GA and runner-up Mr Basketball in 2000. Recruited by ACC and SEC schools galore. Overlooked?

Sparks WAS recruited by UK and Louisville but Cats signed Adam Chiles instead. Hardly overlooked but opted for WKU.
 

FoT = Owned.

Bravo coolhand, thanks for the info.

Not exactly. I follow UK recruiting much more closely than you or the other poster. I'm right this time, not always.

Those players listed were NOT overlooked, rather they were big time recruits.
 

When you think of the prototypical Kentucky players during Tubby's stint, the names of Chuck Hayes, Cliff Hawkins, Kelenna Azuibke, Gerald Fitch, Jules Camara, Patrick Sparks come to mind. While some of these guys were very solid recruits (according to the numbers) others were overlooked or lightly regarded.

The larger point, which shockingly seems to have been missed, is that the recruits Tubby seemed to have the most success with at Kentucky were not the consensus top 25, McD's All-Americans but rather the next level of recruit-those recruits that fall somewhere between top 30 to top 75.


Were any of the guys I listed McDonald's All-Americans? No. Did I say some of them were very solid recruits? Yes (I've even bolded it for you to see). Again, I see you're splitting hairs on details, none of which proves my original or follow-up point wrong.

I'm sure there's a rebuttal coming which will likely include at least one of the following: a puffing out of FOT's chest exclaiming his expertise; the dropping of someone's name who we could care less about; a snide or overt putdown towards my knowledge or character; a cut and paste from a previous post; and perhaps even the listing of how much money FOT makes each year or his resume.

One thing-I'm certainly not the multi-tasking machine you are FOT; I'm embarrassed that I've spent five minutes of my workday responding to this post.
 

When you think of the prototypical Kentucky players during Tubby's stint, the names of Chuck Hayes, Cliff Hawkins, Kelenna Azuibke, Gerald Fitch, Jules Camara, Patrick Sparks come to mind. While some of these guys were very solid recruits (according to the numbers) others were overlooked or lightly regarded.

The larger point, which shockingly seems to have been missed, is that the recruits Tubby seemed to have the most success with at Kentucky were not the consensus top 25, McD's All-Americans but rather the next level of recruit-those recruits that fall somewhere between top 30 to top 75.


Were any of the guys I listed McDonald's All-Americans? No. Did I say some of them were very solid recruits? Yes (I've even bolded it for you to see). Again, I see you're splitting hairs on details, none of which proves my original or follow-up point wrong.

I'm sure there's a rebuttal coming which will likely include at least one of the following: a puffing out of FOT's chest exclaiming his expertise; the dropping of someone's name who we could care less about; a snide or overt putdown towards my knowledge or character; a cut and paste from a previous post; and perhaps even the listing of how much money FOT makes each year or his resume.

One thing-I'm certainly not the multi-tasking machine you are FOT; I'm embarrassed that I've spent five minutes of my workday responding to this post.

None of the recruits you listed with EITHER lightly regarded or overlooked as recruits. Not one.

Google any of them to get their UKAA profile when they were Wildcat players.

I'm right on this. You're not (on this). It's just that simple (this time). Not always.
 





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