Teague WILL Make His Mark Here - Especially Basketball - Both Programs

[Tucker32]

I don't accept this. It is precsiely that assumption/belief/myth is both too pervasive re: all Gopher Sports, and I believe, intrinsically holds us back. I'm saying change that mythology here. When are folks going to decide that "enough is enough" with mediocrity, and worse, its acceptance.

Exactly. The aspiration for average is way too pervasive among many - fans, and moreso many associated with the university outside of the athletic department.

There is nothing about Wisconsin, for example, that is built in to be a stronger program. There is not a stonger recruiting base (and they share much of that base with Marquette), etc. Yes, they have won more in recent years, but nothing to the level that excites recruits like a Kansas, MSU, etc.

And, why Gopherbadgerman continues to say he is a Gopher fan is hard to understand.

 

[BarnBurner]

I don't accept this. It is precsiely that assumption/belief/myth is both too pervasive re: all Gopher Sports, and I believe, intrinsically holds us back. I'm saying change that mythology here. When are folks going to decide that "enough is enough" with mediocrity, and worse, its acceptance.

I totally agree with you.

Just dont let dpdoll know about it, as he will hit you with a history lesson.....

 

[Tucker32]

I totally agree with you.

Just dont let dpdoll know about it, as he will hit you with a history lesson.....

I get the whole "history" thing, and that's also the point. The U can continue to accept mediocrity, or set a plan in motion to overcome it. There are example, not very far away, that have overcome years of below average performance. There are many examples of organizations that have improved, and sustained improvement. Are there more that maintain mediocrity? Yes. However, no organization has to accept a lifetime sentence of it.

I can't imagine in my professional life, in which I hold a leadership role, saying to all my employees when I was hired, "Well, history has shown our performance to be slightly below average, with an occasional run at slightly above average, so let's do all we can to maintain that. Let's do all we can to hold one another from aspiring to be better than average. Ok is good enough. Now, go strive for the middle!"

 

[spermophilus]

I get the whole "history" thing, and that's also the point. The U can continue to accept mediocrity, or set a plan in motion to overcome it. There are example, not very far away, that have overcome years of below average performance. There are many examples of organizations that have improved, and sustained improvement. Are there more that maintain mediocrity? Yes. However, no organization has to accept a lifetime sentence of it.

I can't imagine in my professional life, in which I hold a leadership role, saying to all my employees when I was hired, "Well, history has shown our performance to be slightly below average, with an occasional run at slightly above average, so let's do all we can to maintain that. Let's do all we can to hold one another from aspiring to be better than average. Ok is good enough. Now, go strive for the middle!"[/QUOTE]

^ This. +1000

 

[Maximus]

Let's see; if we had let Maturi retire in the normal fashion we save 450 k? If we don't buy off UNC we save 800 k? Those two combined would cut the Tubby buy-out in half. Oh well, what's money.

Maturi is being paid out of Kaler's discretionary fund.....money to be used by him for special projects, initiatives, research, etc. He wouldn't use that to buy out a coach. Solid attempt though.

 

[savagerube]

I get the whole "history" thing, and that's also the point. The U can continue to accept mediocrity, or set a plan in motion to overcome it. There are example, not very far away, that have overcome years of below average performance. There are many examples of organizations that have improved, and sustained improvement. Are there more that maintain mediocrity? Yes. However, no organization has to accept a lifetime sentence of it.

I can't imagine in my professional life, in which I hold a leadership role, saying to all my employees when I was hired, "Well, history has shown our performance to be slightly below average, with an occasional run at slightly above average, so let's do all we can to maintain that. Let's do all we can to hold one another from aspiring to be better than average. Ok is good enough. Now, go strive for the middle!"

It's not about accepting mediocrity, it's about not setting expectations that aren't within reason. I don't think Gopher fans should have expected the Gophers to make the Final Four just because we had a good run in the NIT. Like dpdoll, I want the Gophers to do well and I don't want accept mediocrity, however, I don't want to set expectations for the team that doesn't take history into consideration.

For example, look at the Twins. Prior to 2002, They were dreadful. Then Gardenhire took over and the atmosphere, for some reason, changed. 10 years later Twins fans, myself included, are irritated with their progress over the last 2 years. Why? Because my expectations are that they should be going to the playoffs. Why do I draw these aforementioned expectations? Well, it's because the Twins in the 2000's were a playoff-caliber team. Thus, my expectations are derived from their recent success. Now if the 2011 and 2012 season took place in the mid-1990's, no one would think twice about their 95+ loss seasons because they're basing it on recent history.

My expectations for this team going into the year was to improve on the previous year. Next year, my expectations will be based on how this season ends. I'm not accepting mediocrity but it is what it is. Duke expects to win the ACC every year. Why? Because they usually do. What happens when Duke doesn't make it the sweet 16? Their fans are disgruntled whereas Gopher fans would be chomping at the bit to make a sweet 16! Why? Because we haven't made the sweet 16 since '89. I know I'm in the minority on this but what do you base expectations on when you don't account the history of what you're basing the expectations for?

Also, as far as your business analogy goes-- most sales #'s are based on the previous year, correct? So expectations are built based on the numbers in the prior year. At least this is what I've experienced in my professional career. Again, another expectation that's built on history, albeit recent history, but this goes to show you that basing expectations on history; whether it's a one year time frame, or a time frame that includes many years of results. .

 

[ruppertflywheel]

I'm assuming the revenue rental of TCF stadium goes to General Funding and to be piece mealed
From there. The question is what piece of the pie does the Athletic Department get? Quite frankly the U is pretty lazy with the dollars provided by the State. Coaches buyouts, the UNC gaff, hiring Maturi as a consultant , etc. The State Legislature is keeping a check list of these shenanigans. For this reason, I don't see buyouts for Pam and Tubby, unless:
A. We're getting a nice chunk of the Viking rental of TCF.
B. Woody has someone like T. Denny in his pocket for a large donation to
changeup the the BB program( coaching,facilities, etc.) Boys, it is a lot more political than you think; both dealing with the State and influential alumni. Woody may have a grand design, but money talks, BS walks. You might have the goose that lays the golden egg out there, but he could be telling Woody there are more " golden eggs" available if there is a coaching change.

 

[Tucker32]

It's not about accepting mediocrity, it's about not setting expectations that aren't within reason. I don't think Gopher fans should have expected the Gophers to make the Final Four just because we had a good run in the NIT. Like dpdoll, I want the Gophers to do well and I don't want accept mediocrity, however, I don't want to set expectations for the team that doesn't take history into consideration.

For example, look at the Twins. Prior to 2002, They were dreadful. Then Gardenhire took over and the atmosphere, for some reason, changed. 10 years later Twins fans, myself included, are irritated with their progress over the last 2 years. Why? Because my expectations are that they should be going to the playoffs. Why do I draw these aforementioned expectations? Well, it's because the Twins in the 2000's were a playoff-caliber team. Thus, my expectations are derived from their recent success. Now if the 2011 and 2012 season took place in the mid-1990's, no one would think twice about their 95+ loss seasons because they're basing it on recent history.

My expectations for this team going into the year was to improve on the previous year. Next year, my expectations will be based on how this season ends. I'm not accepting mediocrity but it is what it is. Duke expects to win the ACC every year. Why? Because they usually do. What happens when Duke doesn't make it the sweet 16? They're fans are disgruntled whereas Gopher fans would be chomping at the bit to make a sweet 16! Why? Because we haven't made the sweet 16 since '89. I know I'm in the minority on this but what do you base expectations on when you don't account the history of what you're basing expectations for?

Also, as far as your business analogy goes-- most sales #'s are based on the previous year, correct? So expectations are built based on the numbers in the prior year. At least this is what I've experienced in my professional career. Again, another expectation that's built on history, albeit recent history, but this goes to show you that basing expectations on history; whether it's a one year time frame, or a time frame that includes many years of results. .

Whoever said anything about going to the Final Four this year? However, I don't think we should accept a ceiling of being ok every ten years or so. I do think you set a long-term vision of being a program that is consistently in the top half of the conference, with real potential for competing for the championship every 3-4 years. Then, start working towards building that.

Also, successful companies don't just build off last year's sales numbers and look at this next year. Instead, successful companies have a long-term horizon that defines desired results, and then they align their operations, human and fiscal resources towards that.

Did I expect the Gophers to go to the Final Four this year? No. Do I expect more success than we have had in the past twelve years? Yes. That requires the administration to commit to a plan to accomplish that, and no, that won't necessarily happen over night. However, there is no reason the U can't have a highly successful program in the future.

Unless, of course, you are afraid to set expectations for success. I know, it would be more Minnesotan to shoot for average, and maybe occasionally, achieve it. However, I think many of us would like more than that.

 

[howeda7]

Not only that- Teague shed light on their internal thinking on buyouts. They view it as an amortization. What looks like 2.5 million to us (and is 2.5 million) they are looking at as perhaps 500K per year for 5 years and assessing whether they can make that up per year with another coach. That starts looking like a pretty low bar to hurdle when fans get disgusted.

That's well and good, but it'd be nice if they got finished amortizing one asset (Mason/Monson/Brew) before they have to start paying for another. But there's like 5 years left on those payments, so they can't let it effect the decision.

 

[dpodoll68]

There's an enormous difference between setting expectations for the present/immediate future and the long term. "Ceiling" discussions are long-term. It's fairly easy to set expectations for the present/immediate future because the only things you have to base it on are certain and have already happened. It's incredibly difficult to set expectations for the long term because so much of the data has yet to be determined and is unknowable.

 

[tikited]

Whoever said anything about going to the Final Four this year? However, I don't think we should accept a ceiling of being ok every ten years or so. I do think you set a long-term vision of being a program that is consistently in the top half of the conference, with real potential for competing for the championship every 3-4 years. Then, start working towards building that.

Also, successful companies don't just build off last year's sales numbers and look at this next year. Instead, successful companies have a long-term horizon that defines desired results, and then they align their operations, human and fiscal resources towards that.

Did I expect the Gophers to go to the Final Four this year? No. Do I expect more success than we have had in the past twelve years? Yes. That requires the administration to commit to a plan to accomplish that, and no, that won't necessarily happen over night. However, there is no reason the U can't have a highly successful program in the future.

Unless, of course, you are afraid to set expectations for success. I know, it would be more Minnesotan to shoot for average, and maybe occasionally, achieve it. However, I think many of us would like more than that.

Yep. I haven't read one poster claiming Big Ten title or bust-Final Four or bust-National Champs or bust. History shouldn't stop us from winning 10 or 11 conference games with a veteran team this far into Tubby's reign.

 

[savagerube]

Whoever said anything about going to the Final Four this year? However, I don't think we should accept a ceiling of being ok every ten years or so. I do think you set a long-term vision of being a program that is consistently in the top half of the conference, with real potential for competing for the championship every 3-4 years. Then, start working towards building that.

Also, successful companies don't just build off last year's sales numbers and look at this next year. Instead, successful companies have a long-term horizon that defines desired results, and then they align their operations, human and fiscal resources towards that.

Did I expect the Gophers to go to the Final Four this year? No. Do I expect more success than we have had in the past twelve years? Yes. That requires the administration to commit to a plan to accomplish that, and no, that won't necessarily happen over night. However, there is no reason the U can't have a highly successful program in the future.

Unless, of course, you are afraid to set expectations for success. I know, it would be more Minnesotan to shoot for average, and maybe occasionally, achieve it. However, I think many of us would like more than that.

Check the threads after the B1G opener against Michigan State. Some expect Tubby to make the sweet 16 in order to keep his job. This has been pasted all over Gopherhole. So if Tubby doesn't accomplish a sweet 16 run, which has happened twice in the existence of the program, he'll lose his job. This right here is a perfect example.

Yes, you're right about the fact that businesses look into the future and have a long-term vision, as I'm sure Norwood Teeague and company have a vision as well. However, they do base part of their vision on the level of success in previous years.

I'm not saying you in particular expected the Gophers to make a final four run, but there are fans on gopherhole that have uttered these words--especially after the Michigan State win. I want the Gophers to do well. I do. However, if you don't base your expectations on history, then where do the expectations for the program come from? We have a great school; we're a great metropolitan area; we have great academics, etc. Ok.. So we're very similar to all the other schools in B1G. We don't have the facilities, we don't have recent success, and our coach is a big question mark.

Michigan State, on the other hand, has had success; have facilities, and have a great coach. So a fan looking at this objectively would be comfortable with high expectations with a program like Michigan State.

I'm not afraid to set expectations for the Gopher's program; I'm nervous to set high expectations because I can't base it on anything...... Yet.

 

[savagerube]

Yep. I haven't read one poster claiming Big Ten title or bust-Final Four or bust-National Champs or bust. History shouldn't stop us from winning 10 or 11 conference games with a veteran team this far into Tubby's reign.

Ok. So Tubby is expected to win double digit wins at this stage. Even though this expectation isn't outlandish, it's still a level of success that has only happened once in the last 15 years (double digit wins in the B1G). Take away the unofficial record years and it's happened twice in the last 24 years. This is also a great example of not analyzing the history.

 

[Tucker32]

Check the threads after the B1G opener against Michigan State. Some expect Tubby to make the sweet 16 in order to keep his job. This has been pasted all over Gopherhole. So if Tubby doesn't accomplish a sweet 16 run, which has happened twice in the existence of the program, he'll lose his job. This right here is a perfect example.

Yes, you're right about the fact that businesses look into the future and have a long-term vision, as I'm sure Norwood Teeague and company have a vision as well. However, they do base part of their vision on the level of success in previous years.

I'm not saying you in particular expected the Gophers to make a final four run, but there are fans on gopherhole that have uttered these words--especially after the Michigan State win. I want the Gophers to do well. I do. However, if you don't base your expectations on history, then where do the expectations for the program come from? We have a great school; we're a great metropolitan area; we have great academics, etc. Ok.. So we're very similar to all the other schools in B1G. We don't have the facilities, we don't have recent success, and our coach is a big question mark.

Michigan State, on the other hand, has had success; have facilities, and have a great coach. So a fan looking at this objectively would be comfortable with high expectations with a program like Michigan State.

I'm not afraid to set expectations for the Gopher's program; I'm nervous to set high expectations because I can't base it on anything...... Yet.

I agree with you. I think many way over stated the talent on this year's team. Some were trying to compare it to '97, for example, which was ridiculous.

I also agree with dpo and you in using history as we look at the immediate future. We also need to use history and current reality to identify what we have in place, and more so, what we don't. Our long-term future has to be what we really want and hope for - this is a vision. And then, make the commitment to it, and execute it.

However, without the commitment and execution, it's just a dream. George Bernard Shaw, "Vision without execution is hallucination."

 

[Bad Gopher]

There's an enormous difference between setting expectations for the present/immediate future and the long term. "Ceiling" discussions are long-term. It's fairly easy to set expectations for the present/immediate future because the only things you have to base it on are certain and have already happened. It's incredibly difficult to set expectations for the long term because so much of the data has yet to be determined and is unknowable.

That sounds to me like Joel Maturi double talk. I prefer to listen to someone talk who has a vision and can articulate it.

 

[tikited]

Ok. So Tubby is expected to win double digit wins at this stage. Even though this expectation isn't outlandish, it's still a level of success that has only happened once in the last 15 years (double digit wins in the B1G). Take away the unofficial record years and it's happened twice in the last 24 years. This is also a great example of not analyzing the history.

Tubby is a HOF caliber coach and we are ever so lucky to have him, etc... You would think a guy with that history could get to 10 wins. That is analyzing history.

 

[dpodoll68]

That sounds to me like Joel Maturi double talk. I prefer to listen to someone talk who has a vision and can articulate it.

How is that double talk? I don't have to have a "vision", I'm not getting paid nor am I responsible for anything related to Gopher Athletics.

 

[mnsports1]

How is that double talk? I don't have to have a "vision", I'm not getting paid nor am I responsible for anything related to Gopher Athletics.

What do you mean? I'm pretty sure I have been told if we don't demad "heads roll," and conference championships, we are part of the problem.

 

[Bad Gopher]

...nor am I responsible for anything related to Gopher Athletics.

Thank goodness.

 

[savagerube]

Tubby is a HOF caliber coach and we are ever so lucky to have him, etc... You would think a guy with that history could get to 10 wins. That is analyzing history.

You're right... It's analyzing Kentucky history. And guess what? 10 conference wins wasn't good enough for the Kentucky fan base. Why? Because of Kentucky's rich basketball history. Am I wrong?

 

[scher215]

Before I get bashed too hard, as of right now I think Tubby should be gone. He hasn't met the expectations I had for him based on his previous success at UK and balancing that with MN history.

But to continue on the sales example, lets say you work for company A and you are currently the 600th best company in your industry. You tell all your sales associates, I expect to be number 1 by next year!!!!

Well good news is, your guys really buckled down and increased sales by 200%!!!

It is unfortunate though, that was only good enough to put them at 300th, but thats not number 1.

Are you going to fire every employee for not making your ridiculous expectation based on where you were previously?

Few are saying the current results are okay (at least I can't find many), but if your expectations were final fours and titles by year 6 you may have misjudged things. Every year I believe with full confidence the Gophers will have a miracle season and win the championship. Every year they don't. Do I want everyone fired and cut because they didn't? No! I don't expect it to happen, but I sure want, hope, cheer, and would be ecstatic if it did.

That said, based on the (clean) history at MN balanced with Tubby's history at UK I expected more at this point and it hasn't been met, at least not yet.

Some day, IMO, Minnesota will be a blue blood program. I fully believe it can happen. Do I expect it to? Absolutely not. All I ask is that each coach builds on his predecessor until we get there.

Should the Wolves fire Adleman because he hasn't produced a title yet? Rubio? love? Ship them out! Adleman is a hall of fame coach! What is this garbage! Injuries are just excuses to accept mediocrity! Fire them all! Cut them all! Clean house!

I've used this example before, but LeBron James was the number one pick because every GM looked at his history an used it to project his potential future and decided their expectations for him. It's why when a walk-ons make one basket everyone screams and cheers, but complain when Rodney only has one make. Rodney was a highly touted recruit based on his history in high school so you expect more of him. If Rodney played 2 minutes a game we'd be whining. Chris Halvorson plays 2 minutes a game and we love it. Why is that?

 

[GophersInIowa]

What do you mean? I'm pretty sure I have been told if we don't demad "heads roll," and conference championships, we are part of the problem.

I sent an email to Tubby after the Nebraska game telling him to get his act together or he will be fired. I totally expect us to make it to the Elite 8 now, you know, because I no longer accept being mediocre.

 

[mnsports1]

I sent an email to Tubby after the Nebraska game telling him to get his act together or he will be fired. I totally expect us to make it to the Elite 8 now, you know, because I no longer accept being mediocre.

Right on!

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

Weighing in on this very late, but I agree with the earlier posters that stated, the number one focus right now should be on getting the facilities in place, and not on paying another buyout.

I feel like we need to suck it up and support Tubby. I wish he sometimes would be more accountable (like Calipari was last night after Kentucky lost), but overall I don't think he is a bad coach.

Hopefully the current players will become better and the current staff can land some of the looming talent.

 

[tikited]

You're right... It's analyzing Kentucky history. And guess what? 10 conference wins wasn't good enough for the Kentucky fan base. Why? Because of Kentucky's rich basketball history. Am I wrong?

And the expectations was that someone like Tubby would increase our win totals from the previous non-tubby like coaches. Am I wrong? That hasn't happened the way any of us wanted.

Listen, we are both wrong and we are both right. You seem to be o.k. with Tubby and I am not. I don't see Tubby getting us better than 6th place, ever, so what's the use of keeping him if that is the reality?

 

[jamalo]

Ok. So Tubby is expected to win double digit wins at this stage. Even though this expectation isn't outlandish, it's still a level of success that has only happened once in the last 15 years (double digit wins in the B1G). Take away the unofficial record years and it's happened twice in the last 24 years. This is also a great example of not analyzing the history.

Lame argument. By that logic, Wisconsin should be a bottom dweller every year since they were for 50 years from the 1940s-early 1990s

 

[jamalo]

Ok. So Tubby is expected to win double digit wins at this stage. Even though this expectation isn't outlandish, it's still a level of success that has only happened once in the last 15 years (double digit wins in the B1G). Take away the unofficial record years and it's happened twice in the last 24 years. This is also a great example of not analyzing the history.

And Arizona should have never bothered to hire Lute Olsen because it was a lost cause based upon history, according to your logic....

 

[mnsports1]

Lame argument. By that logic, Wisconsin should be a bottom dweller every year since they were for 50 years from the 1940s-early 1990s

You don't get it. When Wisky or AZ turned it around I am sure they weren't EXPECTING it. They were pleased. But they could not have expected it! If someone lifts our programs out of where they are, I will be pleased. If we win conf. championships, I will start to expect them. It is not that hard to grasp.

 

[Bad Gopher]

You don't get it. When Wisky or AZ turned it around I am sure they weren't EXPECTING it. They were pleased. But they could not have expected it! If someone lifts our programs out of where they are, I will be pleased. If we win conf. championships, I will start to expect them. It is not that hard to grasp.

I know a number of Badger fans who were expecting big things when they hired Dick Bennett.

 

[jamalo]

You don't get it. When Wisky or AZ turned it around I am sure they weren't EXPECTING it. They were pleased. But they could not have expected it! If someone lifts our programs out of where they are, I will be pleased. If we win conf. championships, I will start to expect them. It is not that hard to grasp.

It is all about having a commitment from the top and a vision on how to achieve it. History is an idiotic argument; see Gonzaga and Butler in addition to the earlier mentioned programs. Basketball only starts 5 players, not 22 like football