State of the Program Poll

[Heber]

The 2009 class isn't a weak class. Let's not say it is simply because it's not the strongest one Brewster has had. There are only three in the Big Ten substantially better. Mich, OSU and PSU. Iowa is ranked 26th, Minn is 29th, and MSU is 30.

I will agree, I exaggerated. I am enthusiastic but not overwhelmed by this incoming class. That being said, if the strengtht of the program is recruiting than we'd better be recruiting at or above the level of our toughest competition. Otherwise, we'll likely stay behind. Less talent + inconsistent coaching is not a recipe for a B10 championship.

 

[Schnoodler]

Define dissapointing though. Not as good as we hoped. Well yeah, but were our hopes realistic? We finished with three big ten wins. The twenty year average for Minnesota is 2.9 wins. The consensus finish for the gophers outside of Minnesota was 7th we finished eight. The strength of roster analysis had us at 8th, we were 8th. We had the lowest strength of schedule ranking of sangarin of any big ten team by half, no other team was even close. We're consistently recruiting 30 spots ahead of our perennial sangarin index.

There is more to the picture than offensive stats.

We're in a growth phase, the least important metrics are W/L's and stats. Once we're an established program then W/L's and attendance (stats) become the most important metrics.

 

[upchurch]

Schnoodler, your logic is so far out there. So, because our program sucked, it's ok for it to continue to suck?

BreakTheGopherCurse I read every word of your post and agree with all of it. Guys complained about the look of what you wrote, not the content. That's very mature. They want to keep their heads in the sand while the Gophers slowly sink into a further abyss of mediocrity.

 

[Schnoodler]

Oh I don't think it's out there at all. I'm saying that we because we're in a building phase we need to focus on the things that will get us there and not hyperventilate because we haven't yet arrived. Stats, and win loss are meaningless. The fact that we're achieving roughly the same results while going through this change should be encouraging. Look at what Michigan is dealing with, and they have the top talent in the big ten.

I think you folks who have your undies in a bunch because you can't have right now what we haven't had in 40+ years are the ones way out there. You're so far from reality, so lost without any reference of perspective that you're actually a bit laughable. But choose your own reality.

 

[Section2]

Section2, please tell me with what from my post you disagree?

This year was disappointing. It left a lot to be desired and I think most of it has to do with the revolving door at the coordinator positions. I think Brewster has a lot of growing to do as a head coach. That being said, I don't think it would benefit our program to fire him or the current coordinators. If this team does not improve in the next two years AND we cannot keep consistency at the coordinator position, that is when I would say pull the plug.

What positive spin is there to put on this year?

you wrote about 50 negative things with the program. If you really believe them, then how can you be in favor of him coaching 2 more years? what will that accomplish? he's an average recruiter, and bad coach in your eyes. How would getting rid of him not be in the benefit of our program according to you?

 

[Hates Monikers]

A 1,400 word post? Wow!

832 words came after "in closing."

 

[monk10]

Whenever I see a giant non-stop block of text defecated into the forums like that I have a momentary debate whether or not it'll be worth it to pick through it for little flakes of gold.

Then I remember there's never actually any gold.

So many potential wall of text pics to go with that I lost interest in posting them. I hate when I can't find the perfect one.

EDIT: Confusing post. I was agreeing with Khaliq, and then added some of my thoughts. (EDIT still kind of sucks)

 

[Heber]

Rebuttle

you wrote about 50 negative things with the program. If you really believe them, then how can you be in favor of him coaching 2 more years? what will that accomplish? he's an average recruiter, and bad coach in your eyes. How would getting rid of him not be in the benefit of our program according to you?

Like I mentioned previously, I think this is largely to do with coordinator turnover. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. If Coach Brew cannot sustain continuity within the coordinator position he is unlikely to achieve success. I believe this is largely responsible for the struggles we saw in 2009. If we cannot keep coordinators here, whether it be leaving for different jobs or getting canned, that is a huge indictment on Coach Brew and I think he should be relieved of his duties. I want to see what Coach Brew can do with the same coordinators for a couple of years. That will truly tell me who he is as a coach. Likewise, if he achieves continuity with his coordinators and we still look like the mess that we did in 2009, we should relieve him of his duties.

I would like to read your opinion on how our program is showing improvement. I have yet to read anything, with exception to our recruiting ratings, that shows that our team is an improvement over the 2006 squad. I'd be interested to read it.

And Schnoodler, I do think it is important to look at stats and w/l record when asked a question "do you think the program is improved?". This is all that is tangible to evaluate. It is only a part of our evaluation tool set but it needs to be something.

 

[Gophers507]

we're on the rise...slow slow rise.

 

[Ole]

Like I mentioned previously, I think this is largely to do with coordinator turnover. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. If Coach Brew cannot sustain continuity within the coordinator position he is unlikely to achieve success. I believe this is largely responsible for the struggles we saw in 2009. If we cannot keep coordinators here, whether it be leaving for different jobs or getting canned, that is a huge indictment on Coach Brew and I think he should be relieved of his duties. I want to see what Coach Brew can do with the same coordinators for a couple of years. That will truly tell me who he is as a coach. Likewise, if he achieves continuity with his coordinators and we still look like the mess that we did in 2009, we should relieve him of his duties.

I would like to read your opinion on how our program is showing improvement. I have yet to read anything, with exception to our recruiting ratings, that shows that our team is an improvement over the 2006 squad. I'd be interested to read it.

And Schnoodler, I do think it is important to look at stats and w/l record when asked a question "do you think the program is improved?". This is all that is tangible to evaluate. It is only a part of our evaluation tool set but it needs to be something.

I'll take a crack, you seem even minded. I agree with your take on coordinator turnover, but I really believe had Dunbar stayed we would have had other problems.

I really feel like the program IS improving, here's why:
You already discount recruiting rankings and while I agree that stars and rankings don't matter, talent does matter. Look at how many guys from the 05 and 06 and even 07 classes have stuck around and contributed, very very few.

We have improved talent and depth of talent 3-4X, guys who will be coming up through the program in the next few years at almost all positions have more physical talent than the 06' team did. Whether they apply themselves and work hard to develop their talents in practice remains to be seen for alot of them, but they are still underclassmen. Next year if the juniors have forgetful impact on the season, we'll be in trouble, I don't think that's likely.

I also really feel that the program was stagnating in 06', truly as far as buzz or relevance we hit a low point with the NDSU win and the coach claiming rebuilding 10 years into his tenor.
Before you jump at this year's finish and SDSU win, the reason there is a difference is that the coaches aren't going to rest on their laurels, they will continue to recruit and work hard to improve, I can't say I felt like the previous regime had that in them in 06'. Whether this staff can get it done is TBD. I truly feel Brewster's mantra from day 1 has been Rose Bowl or Bust, in the truest sense of the phrase.

Our offense has serious issues, much has to do with Oline play, WR play, and lost confidence of the QB. That said, in all of our conference wins, I saw flashes of what could be. The NW game showed what could happen when Weber got a clean pocket after a play action. The Purdue game showed what could happen if the Oline was able to grind the defense down in the running game. The MSU game showed what could happen when the young receivers get on the same page as Weber. The second half of the Illnois game showed that Fisch does have the potential for impactful and creative second half adjustments.
None of these examples forgive the serious inconsistency of the other games, but are simply examples success when things are put together properly in this offense. I seriously hope for a simpler gameplan against our bowl opponent, and a mind reboot for the offensive players over the holiday break.

Defense and special teams is the biggest reason why I feel the program has improved since 06'
It could be said we won every game this year on defense and special teams. This is the lifeblood of winning programs. Offense can be a false strength sometimes. I remember playing OSU at the dome in 05' and racking up like 600 yards(anyone else?) We lost because we couldn't stop anyone. We now have proven the ability of our defense to keep games close or win them late.
Look at the top teams everywhere, their offense had the star power, but their defense wins them games. Florida's national championships were won by their defenses. OSU/PSU/Iowa all have won big ten championships with defense. We can fix the offense, and when we do we'll have a chance to win big games because of our D.

Go Gophers

 

[Schnoodler]

I agree Ole. What sucks right now is what stares us in the face most. A bad defense with a good offense is much more entertaining than a bad offense with a good defense. The first makes you feel like your good when you're not. The second makes you feel like your bad when you are. In both cases you're not good.

In whole, we are better. ST's are better and defense is better. Recruiting is better. Offense right now appears to be worse. In the balance we're better but it feels worse for reasons I just stated. Hopefully, we maintain or improve on all phases as the recruits mature and Fisch's folly improves to the level we can stop holding our noses. It won't take much to move this team up a notch. We're close.

 

[WAGopher]

Those that vote for ‘much better’ or ‘slightly improved’ are freaking delusional.

I think the the people voting for Much Worse are the delusional ones. I'm in agreement with whoever voted for The Same, or Slightly Improved. Since Mason, the play on the field has basically flipped from the O being better and the D poor, to the D being better and the O poor. But overall the talent is getting better, which lends my vote to Slightly Improved.

 

[WAGopher]

It's interesting how differently people see things. I am terribly concerned with what I observed this year.

.......lots of fill......

The Gopher football program reminds me of Vietnam and Iraq. Quagmires that never had to happen. It makes me want to cry.

Sorry Buddy, but I won't read anything that long without paragraphs to organize your thoughts.

 

[Ole]

I agree Ole. What sucks right now is what stares us in the face most. A bad defense with a good offense is much more entertaining than a bad offense with a good defense. The first makes you feel like your good when you're not. The second makes you feel like your bad when you are. In both cases you're not good.

In whole, we are better. ST's are better and defense is better. Recruiting is better. Offense right now appears to be worse. In the balance we're better but it feels worse for reasons I just stated. Hopefully, we maintain or improve on all phases as the recruits mature and Fisch's folly improves to the level we can stop holding our noses. It won't take much to move this team up a notch. We're close.

This is also the root of the vitriol and venom spewed by most casual/bandwagon fans. Read the Strib comment section if you dare. The vikings 98' season ruined this sports market for anyone who appreciates tough, grind it out, sloppy, defensive football.
It also made alot of gopher fans complacent during the Mason years, and thrilled the casual fan. Watching our offense with Maroney and Barber was a thing of beauty, but it softened the losses and defensive meltdowns, until the powers at be couldn't take it anymore.

Fisch is obviously a smart guy, you can see it. What he lacks is experience relating his offensive knowledge to young kids, and a history of playcalling in different circumstances.

I'm a HS track coach, my first year was great, I had upperclassmen that listened and had basic technique knowledge down pat. They worked hard and prospered with the new and foreign stuff I threw at them, because they had the maturity and patience to work at it. They had great Junior and Senior years.
Then they graduated and started over with freshmen. The very same things that worked brilliantly didn't work at all anymore, they were confused, frustrated, impatient, and struggled terribly. I had overhaul everything and learn a brand new way to coach.

Fisch is an NFL guy, that's where he had success, I really believe he has struggled to relate his offensive schemes to the young kids. Look at the most successful offensive players, Decker and Nick TA These guys get it because they've had to learn new offenses before. As the young guys learn to adjust to the more complicated scheme and Fisch learns to simplify and digest things for the players better, everything will even out. Now hope for a vast improvement in Oline play and QB confidence.

 

[dpodoll68]

It also made alot of gopher fans complacent during the Mason years, and thrilled the casual fan. Watching our offense with Maroney and Barber was a thing of beauty, but it softened the losses and defensive meltdowns, until the powers at be couldn't take it anymore.

This is an absolutely great point, and something I haven't even thought about previously. The average football fan (myself included) would rather watch a 42-39 shootout than a 17-14 slugfest. This is probably where a lot of the hatred towards Brewster comes in. People equated "high scoring, no defense" with "good," and now those same people are saying "low scoring, decent defense" equals "bad." Your suggestion that the administration fell into the same trap likely speaks volumes as to how Mason lasted as long as he did.

It's not often on this board that I see a post that opens up a whole new line of thinking for me, but this one has done it. Kudos to you, sir. Seriously.

 

[Heber]

In whole, we are better. ST's are better and defense is better. Recruiting is better. Offense right now appears to be worse. In the balance we're better but it feels worse for reasons I just stated. Hopefully, we maintain or improve on all phases as the recruits mature and Fisch's folly improves to the level we can stop holding our noses. It won't take much to move this team up a notch. We're close.

What scares me is that this defense was full of seniors. I have a hard time speaking out against our defense because most games they were on the field for more than half the game. That being said, what games stood out as good games on defense? Iowa (2nd string QB). SDSU (terrible freshman QB). Illinois (2nd string QB, 28 points and 350 yards total by Illinois). Michigan State (We gave up 27 points on defense, 360 yards). Ohio State (509 yards, 38 points). The only game I can recall is the chilly snowball game at Penn State. I think the defense was excellent that game against a really good QB. However giving a thumbs up for 1 excellent game out of six to end the year isn't enough for me.

We'll lose a lot of really good players this year, especially our linebackers. Hopefully next year's defense will be improve. I really hope so. Michael Carter excites me. Tinsley excites me. Cooper excites me. Let's see if our DC's can put it together.

BTW, I agree special teams looked good this year. Stoudemire is an ace on ST.

 

[Schnoodler]

I'm a HS track coach, my first year was great, I had upperclassmen that listened and had basic technique knowledge down pat. They worked hard and prospered with the new and foreign stuff I threw at them, because they had the maturity and patience to work at it. They had great Junior and Senior years.
Then they graduated and started over with freshmen. The very same things that worked brilliantly didn't work at all anymore, they were confused, frustrated, impatient, and struggled terribly. I had overhaul everything and learn a brand new way to coach.

It's funny, I had the same experience. Mine was made worse by a long lay off from coaching but still. I also had to teach an approach that was different than what they knew. Some didn't buy in and I lost them, some just went through the motions not believing. Slowly though as success starting showing they started buying in. But it took a while. Kids learn alot by emulating the upperclassmen and those that get it more quickly. It's a huge battle sometimes to sell even basic concepts to kids who've never encountered them and can't see it. Great comparison. What happens too, is that sloppyness, and lack of focus becomes a tough fix and sell as well because they just don't know what is an acceptable input and outcome.

Nice comparison. I understand the offensive woes better now than I did. Thank you Ole.

 

[Schnoodler]

What scares me is that this defense was full of seniors. I have a hard time speaking out against our defense because most games they were on the field for more than half the game. That being said, what games stood out as good games on defense? Iowa (2nd string QB). SDSU (terrible freshman QB). Illinois (2nd string QB, 28 points and 350 yards total by Illinois). Michigan State (We gave up 27 points on defense, 360 yards). Ohio State (509 yards, 38 points). The only game I can recall is the chilly snowball game at Penn State. I think the defense was excellent that game against a really good QB. However giving a thumbs up for 1 excellent game out of six to end the year isn't enough for me.

We'll lose a lot of really good players this year, especially our linebackers. Hopefully next year's defense will be improve. I really hope so. Michael Carter excites me. Tinsley excites me. Cooper excites me. Let's see if our DC's can put it together.

BTW, I agree special teams looked good this year. Stoudemire is an ace on ST.

This is one of the great things about college ball. Constant flux. We know the talent goes up and the experience goes down. We don't know the outcome. Same on the O side. Almost entirely the same personnel, they should improve, but when will it click? will it?

 

[Section2]

What scares me is that this defense was full of seniors. I have a hard time speaking out against our defense because most games they were on the field for more than half the game. That being said, what games stood out as good games on defense? Iowa (2nd string QB). SDSU (terrible freshman QB). Illinois (2nd string QB, 28 points and 350 yards total by Illinois). Michigan State (We gave up 27 points on defense, 360 yards). Ohio State (509 yards, 38 points). The only game I can recall is the chilly snowball game at Penn State. I think the defense was excellent that game against a really good QB. However giving a thumbs up for 1 excellent game out of six to end the year isn't enough for me.

We'll lose a lot of really good players this year, especially our linebackers. Hopefully next year's defense will be improve. I really hope so. Michael Carter excites me. Tinsley excites me. Cooper excites me. Let's see if our DC's can put it together.

BTW, I agree special teams looked good this year. Stoudemire is an ace on ST.

I didn't mean to jump on you earlier, I see your point. I think the talent is definitely improving and I agree that coordinator continuity is key. Where do you get that 4 of our games were against 2nd string QBs? As to seniors on D, I think we'll be getting back plenty of experience next year. We really didn't play the same 11 guys. It was a big rotation. The 11 starters next year will be head and shoulders more talented than this year. Against Iowa, you can mention their backup QB, I will say that we started 2 backup CBs. That same secondary against IA is back next year. 3 of 4 backups on the DL played close to 1/3 of the snaps. I think our best pass rushers are back. Our most athletic LBs are back, but we will miss the leadership of the seniors. I don't think it's accurate to say we're losing 9 starters on defense even though it's correct technically.

 

[Gophergrrl]

THINGS R SO MUCH BETTER NOW. IT MAKES ME SO SAD TO SEE PEOPLE DOWN ON THE GOPHS WHEN THE FUTURE IS SO BRIGHT

 

[BadBrew]

Better???

This poll is interesting...I voted for things being the same. Sadly, if you had asked me after the '06season if I would be happy with this program being in more or less the same place I would not have viewed that as improvement. Additionally, given what I saw from this team/coaching staff I see very little reason to assume that next year will be better.

Let's start with the offense:

QB
A situation so screwed that I'm not sure it matters who Brew starts. We wasted a year of Gray's eligibility for 44 running plays that amounted to 243 yards...this average actually makes him the best runner on the team on a avg per carry basis (5.2). Unfortunately, he threw so few times and in such meaningless situations that it is nearly impossible to say that he should start over Weber next season. Additionally, I've heard some talk that he may get moved to receiver. Final analysis here questions coaching management of this position and a very highly touted recruit. Add up Weber's digression and the fact the we have apparently wasted the skills of a sought after recruit and that is not improvement it is digression.

WR
Hard to say...from my seats it appears these guys would have quite the task catching a cold let alone a pass. D. Bennett caught the longest pass of the season against Mich State for 62 yds and there is no consistency with any of the actual receivers. Minus Decker, well, it's obvious why we might be seeing Gray catching passes next year. Again, digression.

RB
This is obviously a position that is down as well...tough to make comparisons to MB3 and Maroney and admittedly not fair. Personally I think Whaley is the best of the bunch he's got some slash and burn. Unfortunately, if Brew is serious about a power running game Whaley will be the Lighting to the Thunder of Bennett and Eskridge. No improvement.

OL
Where to start...Penalties in critical goal line circumstances in multiple games. This is somewhat indicative of the prevailing lack of discipline exhibited by this team which is directly related to coaching or rather lack of it. Digression.

Now for Defense:

LB
Look this group is definitely improved and I am excited by the prospect of seeing Keanon Cooper and Gary Tinsley playing next season. We graduate some good players so it's reasonable to expect some drop off; although I think we may actually get better here. Modest Improvement.

DB
M. Carter, R. Collado, and Royston should be solid next year...Modest improvement.

DL
Some promising young men here. I like the ratio of tackles to TFL for Jacobs and Kirksey, but we are graduating some solid players so it will take some time to say that this group is improved. Minor digression.

This is by no means absolute but my question to those complacent homers remains; what has happened this year that indicates modest to significant improvement will occur with respect to overall record and the Big 10 next season?

Brewster is lost, we have no more team identity 12 months removed from 55-0, then we did the day Timid Timmy had his offensive epiphany (POWER FOOTBALL). He sure stuck to his guns on that one. Hopefully, he finally convinces himself of what he wants his offense to look like and he leaves the defense alone. Hey, I might even book some tickets to Detroit!

 

[Schnoodler]

This poll is interesting...I voted for things being the same. Sadly, if you had asked me after the '06season if I would be happy with this program being in more or less the same place I would not have viewed that as improvement. Additionally, given what I saw from this team/coaching staff I see very little reason to assume that next year will be better.

Let's start with the offense:

QB
.................

The offense was not good. However they will all be a year older and stronger, and Fisch will get another year. It can't get worse, most likely it will be better



Now for Defense:



LB
Look this group is definitely improved and I am excited by the prospect of seeing Keanon Cooper and Gary Tinsley playing next season. We graduate some good players so it's reasonable to expect some drop off; although I think we may actually get better here. Modest Improvement.

DB
M. Carter, R. Collado, and Royston should be solid next year...Modest improvement.

DL
Some promising young men here. I like the ratio of tackles to TFL for Jacobs and Kirksey, but we are graduating some solid players so it will take some time to say that this group is improved. Minor regression.

I won't disagree on the defense, except to say that possible the DL improves because of better DE rush, and deeper talent, even though some very good seniors are departing.


This is by no means absolute but my question to those complacent homers remains; what has happened this year that indicates modest to significant improvement will occur with respect to overall record and the Big 10 next season?

Brewster is lost, we have no more team identity 12 months removed from 55-0, then we did the day Timid Timmy had his offensive epiphany (POWER FOOTBALL). He sure stuck to his guns on that one. Hopefully, he finally convinces himself of what he wants his offense to look like and he leaves the defense alone. Hey, I might even book some tickets to Detroit!

Sometimes the way a question is asked impacts the answer. In my estimation we're not any better than last year. The defense improved and so did the ST's but the offense took a step back. But ask me if I think we're closer to a new years day bowl and I'd say absolutely. The talent continues to improve and the freshmen and sophs showed extremely good promise.

And really if you're asking yourself if we'll be better or worse next year you really answered your own question. The offense will return in full, it was as bad as it could be. It should get better. And in two of three grades on defense you gave an improving score, with one negative. You didn't consider ST's which will again improve over a very good season with returners at all key spots.

As far as an identity. On offense I think we're completely lacking unless you want to consider suck as an identity. But Brewster has established a very solid overall team identity. This team plays hard, doesn't quit, and is comitted. That's a good identity.

 

[Izatys98]

There is no way that anyone can say that the product on the field has improved. Sure, there are elements that have shown signs of being better - kickoff returns and maybe the linebackers. But are the special teams really that much better than what we saw previously (not intending to open up a Brewster vs. Mason debate so please don't suggest otherwise). Maybe I'm forgetting some, but how many punts have we blocked - I can only remember one (albeit a big one) this year. It use to happen with some regularity on Mason's squads. The kickoff coverage team was spotty this year - SDSU is a prime example. And the KO return game seemed to lose steam the back half of the year. The offense is abysmal. The blame for that goes squarely on the HC and OC. Blame Weber if you like - and many here do - but who made him change his delivery? I've seen nothing out of Fisch or Lee that suggests that they are "getting it". The defense seemed to be better this year but they absolutely couldn't get off the field at times. Having watched all but 1 game this year, there were far too many 3rd and longs that the opposition converted for us to really be successful. If the offense hadn't put lightening in a bottle in the MSU game, we'd probably be hearing much more negativity about the D.

The only thing that seems to have improved is the number of people in the camp of "hoping" things get better. The vaunted recruiting classes have yet to materialize on the field. The depth charts have been owned by the "dregs" of Mason's tenure. Sure there have been some players who have shown some flashes but not enough for me to sit back and say 'wow, the whole squad is getting better'. Maybe this will be proven wrong next year but...

Final thought (I'll try to keep it under 800 words)... One of the knock against Mason is that he allegedly didn't care about recruiting and didn't work hard to bring in players. Yet he still found a way to develop these kids. He eventually took Wacker dregs to the Sun Bowl I believe in what was a great year - at least by our historical standards. He took castoffs like Eslinger, Barber, Maroney, and Setterstrom and turned them into All-Americans and solid NFL players. Thus far, Brewster has managed to drag the upperclassmen through a 1-11 season, an end-of-season collapse that rivals anything we've seen previously, and a regression this year that has left the Gophers at or near the bottom in virtually every meaningful statistical category. Next year's schedule leaves little room to continue to "hope" the HC and OC grow into their jobs, the thus far virtually untested/unseen "talent and depth" is real, and we can successfully replace all of the graduating seniors. One might argue that there are a few too many potential confounding variables in that equation going into a coach's fourth year on the job...

All this said, barring an epic collapse in the bowl game, Brewster's back next season and there's nothing to do at this point but "hope"...

 

[Schnoodler]

I'm thinking Weber to TE next year myself.

 

[monk10]

I'm thinking Weber to TE next year myself.

...

(dotted for emphasis)

 

[SonOfTheVarsity]

Schnoodler- How can you say wins and losses are not the most important metrics? What else matters? Wins and losses are all that counts. Hey, we haven't won a meaningful game in three years under Brewster, but who cares? You can't judge a coach's success based on nonsense like his record.

When we hired Brewster, people only talked about recruiting. And his recruiting is better than Mason's, but what does that matter when he pisses down his leg during games. (Remember Northwestern last year?)

Who cares who he recruits if he has shown no ability to win games? We're three years into his tenure and his "defining" win is at home against a .500 MSU team. Ok, he's bringing more talent, but that talent has not won. And don't say that's because they haven't had the chance. Programs around the nation have been carried by young players. The last two Heisman winners were sophomores. Underclassmen have contributed heavily in major programs around the country. Why not here? Hint: Because Brewster and his staff have no clue how to develop talent.

You could bring in all the talent in the world, but what does it matter if you don't coach them well and put them into situations to succeed. The only way to develop a winning program is by actually WINNING. And Brewster's record in three years is 14-23. He took a program that was 38-25 in Mason's final five years and has led them to a 14-23 record. How is that doing anything but getting worse?

 

[Schnoodler]

Schnoodler- How can you say wins and losses are not the most important metrics? What else matters? Wins and losses are all that counts. Hey, we haven't won a meaningful game in three years under Brewster, but who cares? You can't judge a coach's success based on nonsense like his record.

When we hired Brewster, people only talked about recruiting. And his recruiting is better than Mason's, but what does that matter when he pisses down his leg during games. (Remember Northwestern last year?)

Who cares who he recruits if he has shown no ability to win games? We're three years into his tenure and his "defining" win is at home against a .500 MSU team. Ok, he's bringing more talent, but that talent has not won. And don't say that's because they haven't had the chance. Programs around the nation have been carried by young players. The last two Heisman winners were sophomores. Underclassmen have contributed heavily in major programs around the country. Why not here? Hint: Because Brewster and his staff have no clue how to develop talent.

You could bring in all the talent in the world, but what does it matter if you don't coach them well and put them into situations to succeed. The only way to develop a winning program is by actually WINNING. And Brewster's record in three years is 14-23. He took a program that was 38-25 in Mason's final five years and has led them to a 14-23 record. How is that doing anything but getting worse?

It's always easy to find exceptions. They rarely have a bearing in any discussion except to show what is possible. It helps zero to determine if we're on a correct time line for success. Most freshmen hardly play. Most inexperienced teams make many mistakes. Most coaching/scheme changes result in a step back before a step forward. We have to judge the program on the mean, not the extreme.

Unfortunately most sports including football have a delay from input to output. The results we have today have more to do with inputs of 2-4 years ago. That has little to do with Brewster. My contention is that because the outputs are not a result of his inputs they are inadequate to determine whether we are progressing or not towards the goal. It's really that simple. So we need different metrics to go by.

At some point the outputs are completely due to his inputs and he bears full responsibility. At that point the most important metrics are Wins and Losses. The others become secondary. That doesn't mean he gets a free pass now, it just means you have to look at other criteria.

Offense is a step backwards and he deserves a negative mark. But defense and special teams and recruiting are also positives. In my opinion it won't be until 2012 when wins and losses are the primary criteria, although starting next year they become more and more important. We may have the same record next year and have made significant progress. We can't say that in 2012. We can't even say that in 2011. And if the offense is as ugly next year, Maturi has a tough decision as well. But for now, Brewster only owns the inputs and not the outputs, so you must find other ways to judge the inputs.

 

[SonOfTheVarsity]

It's always easy to find exceptions. They rarely have a bearing in any discussion except to show what is possible. It helps zero to determine if we're on a correct time line for success. Most freshmen hardly play. Most inexperienced teams make many mistakes. Most coaching/scheme changes result in a step back before a step forward. We have to judge the program on the mean, not the extreme.

Unfortunately most sports including football have a delay from input to output. The results we have today have more to do with inputs of 2-4 years ago. That has little to do with Brewster. My contention is that because the outputs are not a result of his inputs they are inadequate to determine whether we are progressing or not towards the goal. It's really that simple. So we need different metrics to go by.

At some point the outputs are completely due to his inputs and he bears full responsibility. At that point the most important metrics are Wins and Losses. The others become secondary. That doesn't mean he gets a free pass now, it just means you have to look at other criteria.

Offense is a step backwards and he deserves a negative mark. But defense and special teams and recruiting are also positives. In my opinion it won't be until 2012 when wins and losses are the primary criteria, although starting next year they become more and more important. We may have the same record next year and have made significant progress. We can't say that in 2012. We can't even say that in 2011. And if the offense is as ugly next year, Maturi has a tough decision as well. But for now, Brewster only owns the inputs and not the outputs, so you must find other ways to judge the inputs.

I get where you're coming from, but it seems like you're stretching to excuse mediocrity. You say that the outputs from this year reflect the inputs of 2-4 years ago. Brewster has been here for three years. He has a huge impact on the inputs in your 2-4 year time frame. He's controlled the program's inputs for three full seasons, and that should be enough time to see an improvement in outputs.

And besides wins/losses, there are outputs that a coach always has full control over: proper clock management, team discipline, playcalling, etc. It doesn't matter if it's his first year or his 50th, good coaches always have control over those types of things, and Brewster simply doesn't. He's a horrible game coach, and that fact has undoubtedly cost us several losses in his three years. And he consistently makes the same coaching mistakes, and unfortunately they aren't going to go away.

Agreed, most freshmen don't play, but Brewster has had three classes come in under him. And, of those three classes, very few, if any players have had a huge impact during games. Numerous programs around the nation are getting tons more production from their last three recruiting classes than Brewster is getting from his. Those many programs aren't exceptions to some rule; they show that underclassmen have had widespread impacts around college football. But we've had very little production from our last three classes. That solely reflects his inability to coach these recruits and set them up for success. They may be waiting their turn behind upperclassmen, but three years without developing a single impact player certainly doesn't inspire confidence in his ability to turn recruits into good Big Ten football players.

We've gone three years with Brewster, and we still don't have a team identity. And in three years, I haven't seen any indication that Brewster can become a winning coach. It doesn't matter if some of his players are Mason holdovers or whatever. Three years is enough time to show at least some marked improvement on the field. And he hasn't. For that matter, he hasn't even given an indication for hope ON THE FIELD. He's continually getting support only for his rah-rah speeches and press conferences, not his performance on the field. After three years, game-day performance--wins and losses--have to be the barometer for a coach's success. I'm tired of hearing about the hope for some illusive tomorrow that he has proven himself incapable to find.

 

[GopherBeef]

He's a horrible game coach, and that fact has undoubtedly cost us several losses in his three years. And he consistently makes the same coaching mistakes, and unfortunately they aren't going to go away.

We have come from behind in each of our victories this year. We came from way back vs. Illinois to nearly pull it out. We came back from 14-0 against a very good Cal team when it looked like we might be in for a blow out. Same vs. Wisconsin. We pulled out a win vs. Michigan State when it looked like they had all the momentum. So, I disagree with the assertion that Brew is a "horrible game coach". In my opinion, I think he does a pretty good job within the game, but the game planning and preparation leaves some to be desired.

That solely reflects his inability to coach these recruits and set them up for success. They may be waiting their turn behind upperclassmen, but three years without developing a single impact player certainly doesn't inspire confidence in his ability to turn recruits into good Big Ten football players.

I cannot believe how often this gets thrown around on this board. Why don't Brew and his staff get any credit for developing players such as Eric Decker, Eric Small, Nate Triplett, Lee Campbell, Garrett Brown, the Tow-Arnett bros., etc? He may not have recruited them, but most of these guys were lightly-recruited guys who became the leaders of this team, and a few of them may be playing on Sundays. I think Nick Tow-Arnett is a great example of this. He was an afterthought backup TE when Brew arrived, and ended up being one of the key players in our offense this year.

The original poll question was basically "Is the program in better shape than when Brew arrived". Many of the people who say no on this thread seem to admit that recruiting and/or overall talent is better, but nothing else. All else being equal, if the talent is better, does this not mean that the program is better than when Brew arrived?

I voted slightly improved. I hope that next year I can vote much improved. Yes, I did say hope, but what else can you do looking forward?

 

[Schnoodler]

I get where you're coming from, but it seems like you're stretching to excuse mediocrity. You say that the outputs from this year reflect the inputs of 2-4 years ago. Brewster has been here for three years. He has a huge impact on the inputs in your 2-4 year time frame. He's controlled the program's inputs for three full seasons, and that should be enough time to see an improvement in outputs.

And besides wins/losses, there are outputs that a coach always has full control over: proper clock management, team discipline, playcalling, etc. It doesn't matter if it's his first year or his 50th, good coaches always have control over those types of things, and Brewster simply doesn't. He's a horrible game coach, and that fact has undoubtedly cost us several losses in his three years. And he consistently makes the same coaching mistakes, and unfortunately they aren't going to go away.

Agreed, most freshmen don't play, but Brewster has had three classes come in under him. And, of those three classes, very few, if any players have had a huge impact during games. Numerous programs around the nation are getting tons more production from their last three recruiting classes than Brewster is getting from his. Those many programs aren't exceptions to some rule; they show that underclassmen have had widespread impacts around college football. But we've had very little production from our last three classes. That solely reflects his inability to coach these recruits and set them up for success. They may be waiting their turn behind upperclassmen, but three years without developing a single impact player certainly doesn't inspire confidence in his ability to turn recruits into good Big Ten football players.

We've gone three years with Brewster, and we still don't have a team identity. And in three years, I haven't seen any indication that Brewster can become a winning coach. It doesn't matter if some of his players are Mason holdovers or whatever. Three years is enough time to show at least some marked improvement on the field. And he hasn't. For that matter, he hasn't even given an indication for hope ON THE FIELD. He's continually getting support only for his rah-rah speeches and press conferences, not his performance on the field. After three years, game-day performance--wins and losses--have to be the barometer for a coach's success. I'm tired of hearing about the hope for some illusive tomorrow that he has proven himself incapable to find.

I'm really only looking for extreme outcomes when it comes to a new program. If he couldn't coach we couldn't win. He's equalled the previous administrations typical outcomes. He's proven he can coach. Now the question is if he can move it to the next level. For that you have to wait for his imputs to be ready. As I've stated that takes time.

I'm sorry its a difficult thing to wait for freshmen to become seniors. It really is hard.