STATE FOOTBALL HEADED TO THE METRODOME

[stevenmgr]

State Football Tournament

Four teams to defend titles; two teams make first appearances

Four teams return to defend their 2011 football titles — Dawson-Boyd in Class A, Caledonia in Class AA, St. Croix Lutheran of West St. Paul in Class AAA, and Eden Prairie in Class AAAAAA. If Caledonia wins, it would be the third consecutive title for the Warriors. The Eden Prairie Eagles won in Class AAAAA last year, but they now belong to the new 32-team, largest schools Class AAAAAA.

Twenty teams that competed in the 2011 tournament have qualified again, while two teams are making their first appearances. Sixteen teams enter with unblemished records.

Here is a chance for Jerry Kill to see some of the best high school football players from around the state as this week kicks off the 2012 MSHSL State High School football state quarterfinals. I know that there has been some talk about moving the State football tournament over to the TCF BANK field.

http://stevenssports.blogspot.com/2012/11/mshsl-state-tournament-press-release.html

 

[lakesgopher]

I really hope they keep state in the dome or the new stadium, a cold day in November would destroy attendance. I know the purists think it would be great, but the average fan would stay home and watch it on tv.

 

[supadupafly]

I really hope they keep state in the dome or the new stadium, a cold day in November would destroy attendance. I know the purists think it would be great, but the average fan would stay home and watch it on tv.

well, i would say the average/casual fan doesn't go watch the prep bowl in the dome now as it is. so might as well keep it pure to the original game and move it outdoors permanently. personally, i would like to see the state football prep bowl go outdoors at tcf stadium permanently. you know.......how they played the state football playoffs and finals in MN for decades and decades before the metrodome was built. seemed to work outdoors just fine back then regardless of weather.

 

[FireDaveLee]

I was at the Edina-Blaine game this past Friday. A pretty wild game. I don't know much about projecting MN kids to the D-I level, but it is hard to wonder why Minnesota is not onto Marley Allison (of course I don't know the whole story, maybe it's grades, maybe they are, etc.). I'd think that with a year as a redshirt, they would find a place for him on the field, whether it be as WR or into the defensive backfield.....I know nothing.

 

[Goldy Gopher]

State quarterfinal games this week are played outdoors for the most part and are scattered throughout the state rather than just in the metrodome. The games are all played on turf though and some argue if you are going to play the quarters outdoors you should play the semis and finals outdoors as well and others would rather have the state quarters, semis, and finals played in the dome.

 

[Gopherdrummer]

Wisconsin plays their football state championships at Camp Randall (sure, they don't have a dome in the state so basically apples to oranges). But it might add a slight recruiting edge for the Badgers when it comes to in-state recruits. Many kids that end up playing in Camp Randall for State have childhood dreams of playing there, whether it is for HS football, or as a Badger. TCF was built with the purpose of being Minnesota's Football Stadium. Why not have State football played on the State's football field.

It would also be easy for Kill or any on his staff to pop by during the games and check out some possible recruits, schedule permitting of course.

 

[supadupafly]

Wisconsin plays their football state championships at Camp Randall (sure, they don't have a dome in the state so basically apples to oranges). But it might add a slight recruiting edge for the Badgers when it comes to in-state recruits. Many kids that end up playing in Camp Randall for State have childhood dreams of playing there, whether it is for HS football, or as a Badger. TCF was built with the purpose of being Minnesota's Football Stadium. Why not have State football played on the State's football field.

It would also be easy for Kill or any on his staff to pop by during the games and check out some possible recruits, schedule permitting of course.

couldn't agree more. i would much rather watch my kid, a family member or a friend play in the state football tournament outdoors at tcf stadium. in a truly classic style football stadium. on the campus of the U of M. so much more football history and tradition on the campus of the U of M than there is or ever will be in any pro football stadium in this state. personally, i can't stand the way the mn state high school league "runs the show" when it comes to football in this state. they really just do not get it.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Wisconsin plays their football state championships at Camp Randall (sure, they don't have a dome in the state so basically apples to oranges). But it might add a slight recruiting edge for the Badgers when it comes to in-state recruits. Many kids that end up playing in Camp Randall for State have childhood dreams of playing there, whether it is for HS football, or as a Badger. TCF was built with the purpose of being Minnesota's Football Stadium. Why not have State football played on the State's football field.

It would also be easy for Kill or any on his staff to pop by during the games and check out some possible recruits, schedule permitting of course.

At the very least, could TCF host some kind of showcase similar to the basketball shootout at Target Center? On the Gophers bye week, have two games Friday night and three or four on Saturday. I'm not sure what the rules are but if playoff games are able to be played in college stadiums, I've got to believe regular season games can be as well. Maybe the university just wouldn't be able to be involved in the planning of it or something.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Don't see an issue. The U should be pushing harder for this to help build themselves as a brand within the state. I remember as a little league player there was the "All-Star" game for the 3 6th graders from each team voted on to one of 2 AS teams. You played in the Dome, and everyone was super stoked about it (including myself). After playing I realized how lame it truly was given the stale nature of the game and building, particularly when empty.

The U should work with Pop Warner and other LL associations and the MSHSL to get the game played at TCF. Plenty of parking, smaller venue, more than adequate space and concessions, and in a couple years we'll even have heating coils under the field (to alleviate ANY safety concerns the MSHSL might have). WAY better.

And yeah, I wouldn't worry about dropped attendance - only rabid HS kids and a few parents attend now anyway (what, maybe 7-10k total?). Cold weather might turn away the average fan, but the experience could also bring in just as many. Just seems like this is the huge advantage to having a flagship athletic program in the heart of the most populated city (pair of cities) and metro. If it were me, I'd have Mariucci, Williams, and TCF hold all the major state championships.

 

[MaxyJR1]

This has been covered a bit on here in another thread. I agree that having the games at TCF would be cool and a good thing for the U of M, but with weather/climate control of the dome, I don't see it happening. They have to use TCFBank in 2014 and 2015 and the MSHSL is already discussing the issues involved. Would they have to shorten the season or move it up? Wisconsin starts a week before MN and has their championships earlier. Move it up and you shorten the summer by a week and conflict with county fairs in outstate areas. Maybe they can just move the start of 6a and 5a up and have them plan at TCF. A showcase weekend would be fun. I think this years current format with 7 classes and eliminating the 1v8 and 2v7 games in section play for the most part is best.

I'm going to check out Owatonna and Mankato West on Friday. Should be a good game. West has a 2015 QB and Owatonna has the kid with a MN offer for 2014.

 

[lakesgopher]

well, i would say the average/casual fan doesn't go watch the prep bowl in the dome now as it is. so might as well keep it pure to the original game and move it outdoors permanently. personally, i would like to see the state football prep bowl go outdoors at tcf stadium permanently. you know.......how they played the state football playoffs and finals in MN for decades and decades before the metrodome was built. seemed to work outdoors just fine back then regardless of weather.

I try to go every year and I know I would be less likely to show up for high school football if I have no connection to a team if it was below 50 degrees.

 

[MNfootballfan]

well, i would say the average/casual fan doesn't go watch the prep bowl in the dome now as it is. so might as well keep it pure to the original game and move it outdoors permanently. personally, i would like to see the state football prep bowl go outdoors at tcf stadium permanently. you know.......how they played the state football playoffs and finals in MN for decades and decades before the metrodome was built. seemed to work outdoors just fine back then regardless of weather.

Not trying to nitpick, but the first ever official state championship in football was played in 1972. It was played outside until the first "Prep Bowl" in 1983. It was played outside for 1 year over a decade. It would be shame for the Prep Bowl to move outside in my opinion. It does not have the following of the state hockey tournament, but there are many people who take in 3 or more games during the day. I'm guessing there aren't very many people that would do that with sub-freezing temperatures.

I do like the idea of showcasing the stadium during the regular season.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I try to go every year and I know I would be less likely to show up for high school football if I have no connection to a team if it was below 50 degrees.

I agree with this. I played in the Prep Bowl and my grandparents and some family would not have been able to attend had the game been held outside. I believe some of us are biased in wanting games at the U in all HS sports, but remember this is still a pro sports town.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

This has been covered a bit on here in another thread. I agree that having the games at TCF would be cool and a good thing for the U of M, but with weather/climate control of the dome, I don't see it happening. They have to use TCFBank in 2014 and 2015 and the MSHSL is already discussing the issues involved. Would they have to shorten the season or move it up? Wisconsin starts a week before MN and has their championships earlier. Move it up and you shorten the summer by a week and conflict with county fairs in outstate areas. Maybe they can just move the start of 6a and 5a up and have them plan at TCF. A showcase weekend would be fun. I think this years current format with 7 classes and eliminating the 1v8 and 2v7 games in section play for the most part is best.

I'm going to check out Owatonna and Mankato West on Friday. Should be a good game. West has a 2015 QB and Owatonna has the kid with a MN offer for 2014.

Wow, worried about local county fair schedules??? Exactly 3 county fairs would have been affected by a move this past year (link).

I just don't see why we're shying away from this when we're comfortable having a MN State of Hockey Day in which teams across many age groups (down to much younger than HS age not officially related to the event) play hockey OUTSIDE in January (this year in Grand Rapids, MN - 157 miles north of Minneapolis). And yeah, TCF will have heat coils under the field. Again, the people who go to late-season and playoff games at the high school, sitting on aluminum benches that are typically open to wind coming through them would take issue with the Prep Bowl being played at TCF with a heated concourse/bathrooms, gorgeous sight-lines of downtown, and location on our states major university? Come on.

 

[McGopherFan]

It comes down to Money

The first stop for any decision made by the MSHSL is $. Whichever of the two football stadiums generates the most $ or leaves the smallest $ loss will get the first consideration.

Everything else will be considered with whatever weight the MSHSL decides to place on those attributes. Historically, the U has priced itself out of being the primary host for many of the MSHSL event that would seem to be very good fits for the campus to host.

I agree with this. I played in the Prep Bowl and my grandparents and some family would not have been able to attend had the game been held outside. I believe some of us are biased in wanting games at the U in all HS sports, but remember this is still a pro sports town.

 

[MaxyJR1]

2010 numbers.

State Quarters: 24 games (5 indoors)- total attendance 31,940
Semi Finals: DOME 12 games- total attendance 36,016. (All games live streamed for free)
Prep Bowl: Dome 6 games - total attendance 27,070. (All games on live TV)

Financially makes no sense to play outside.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I just don't see why we're shying away from this when we're comfortable having a MN State of Hockey Day in which teams across many age groups (down to much younger than HS age not officially related to the event) play hockey OUTSIDE in January (this year in Grand Rapids, MN - 157 miles north of Minneapolis).

Most people who attend the hockey games are there to cheer on their team. There are a lot more general fans at state championship games. Also, if they started playing the state hockey tourney outside, I can guarantee attendance would be down.

Again, the people who go to late-season and playoff games at the high school, sitting on aluminum benches that are typically open to wind coming through them would take issue with the Prep Bowl being played at TCF with a heated concourse/bathrooms, gorgeous sight-lines of downtown, and location on our states major university? Come on.

I don't think you realize how quickly the weather gets cold in November. The average low in Minneapolis on November 1st (34) is almost the same as the average high on November 24th (36). The record low on Nov. 1 is 19 and the record low on Nov. 24 is -10.

I loved playing outside in the cold and snow. But with money at stake, there is no way they will move it outside if they don't have to.

 

[Gopherdrummer]

For what it's worth, the attendance at Camp Randall for the Wisconsin State Football Championships is mostly just HS football families and students of respective schools. People just kind of shuffle in and out depending on if their team is playing. Sure, they come out in droves, but they don't sell out the place. It is more of an event to really reward the players and for parents to get to see their kid play on the "Big Stage" even if it is only for the one game. And it makes sense for Wisconsin since the only other alternative is Lambeau Field.

No changes will probably come unless the schools, parents, and especially the U lobbied like crazy to get the game moved. It would be cool. No doubt about it.

 

[gophersfan]

State quarterfinal games this week are played outdoors for the most part and are scattered throughout the state rather than just in the metrodome. The games are all played on turf though and some argue if you are going to play the quarters outdoors you should play the semis and finals outdoors as well and others would rather have the state quarters, semis, and finals played in the dome.

All Class 6A QF games are in the metrodome this weekend, all other classes are outdoor.

 

[gophersfan]

Also once the Metrdome have to come down, i would think in the 1 year or 2 years they will play the prep bowl at TCF Bank Stadium i would think or maybe not ands then move them back to the new stadium.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

2010 numbers.

State Quarters: 24 games (5 indoors)- total attendance 31,940
Semi Finals: DOME 12 games- total attendance 36,016
Prep Bowl: Dome 6 games - total attendance 27,070.

Financially makes no sense to play outside.

Your numbers lack any depth of real statistical meaning. For the Semis, what was the comparison of attendance for the indoor games vs outdoor games (taking in to account distance traveled for the teams involved and size of their schools/towns). Also keep in mind capacity at many of the venues at the Semis played at home field for the smaller stadiums means an obvious disadvantage to total attendance compared to playing in the Metrodome.

In any case, what little analysis you did actually proves that attendance goes up regardless of venue because of the importance of the game. ~4,500 per game for the Prep Bowls in the Dome, 3,000 per game for the Semi-finals in the SAME venue.

However, since the only portion of the data that has both open air and indoor games for the same "level of action," I present for your viewing pleasure, the outdoor game attendances taking in to account several factors:

Indoor Games
5 Games
Average Attendance per game: 1,567
Standard deviation of games: 361 (one could reasonably assume that 81.5% of indoor games would have an attendance between 1,206 and 2,289)
Average distance driven from hometown to stadium: 59.97 miles (std dev of 35.2 miles). Without DeLaSalle HS playing at the Dome, these numbers are 66.4 miles average with std dev of 30.4 miles.

Outdoor
19 Games
Average Attendance per game: 1,324
Standard deviation of games: 583 (one could reasonably assume that 81.5% of indoor games would have an attendance between 740 and 2,489)
Average distance driven from hometown to stadium: 77.59 miles (std dev of 65.6 miles). Without CDHHS playing at the Griffin Stadium in St Paul, these numbers are 79.6 miles average with std dev of 65.3 miles.

I did not want to look up population of these schools/towns in relation to their gameday attendance. I think it's clear that a slight drop in average attendance for the outdoor games also came with a much wider variance (some were extremely well attended), but these schools and fans also had to drive nearly 20 miles further on average for the game (with some driving MUCH farther as noted by the wide std dev).

This data would not conclude that indoor vs outdoor venues had any real effect on the attendance of state high school football games.

Should I also conduct a study showing number of quality restaurants and bars near TCF vs the Dome, access to cheap, close, surface parking, or any other measure to show the value of TCF over the Dome for a mid-late November football game?

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Most people who attend the hockey games are there to cheer on their team. There are a lot more general fans at state championship games. Also, if they started playing the state hockey tourney outside, I can guarantee attendance would be down.

I don't think you realize how quickly the weather gets cold in November. The average low in Minneapolis on November 1st (34) is almost the same as the average high on November 24th (36). The record low on Nov. 1 is 19 and the record low on Nov. 24 is -10.

I loved playing outside in the cold and snow. But with money at stake, there is no way they will move it outside if they don't have to.

I have a hard time believing that 27,070 spread across 6 classes for the state championship games includes droves of people who are there for any other reason than it being "their team" (their town or kids on the team). Go ahead and point to a few examples but I would bet 90+% of people in attendance are only there because their team is.

I'm sorry, I must not have grown up in MN and been aware of the weather here, attended home high school games, Gopher games in recent years to the end of the season, etc.

The quarterfinals are already played outdoors, on Nov 11-13, so don't know why the 1st is your benchmark.

Nov 12 (2010 middle day of quarterfinals):
Average High 43
Average Low 28
Mean 36

Nov 26 (2010 State Championship):
Average High 35
Average Low 20
Mean 28

We're talking about an 8 degree difference in the average high and low for the daily high and low. The low will likely be the temperature focused on as primetime games (5A) that bring in most attendance are played at night where temperatures have already dropped to close to the low for the night. Does anyone notice a difference between 20 and 28?

And as far as money goes, my other post goes to great lengths to show that attendance, when adjusted for driving distance to venue, does not vary much at all between indoor and outdoors.

 

[lakesgopher]

I love the posters that think everything is perfect at tcf and are the same people who probably stay home and watch it on tv. Tcf is great but it wouldn't be great for high school football. The dome is a much better facility for high school football then tcf. I wouldn't go watch state in person if it was outside in November unless my hometown or the school I work at was involved. I know there are a lot more that actually go and spend the day agree with me compared to those that just want everything at the U because they think the state looks at the gophers like we are a huge deal. The non twin cities area of the state feel a big disconnect from the U and have attached themselves to other things like the Dakota schools etc.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I have a hard time believing that 27,070 spread across 6 classes for the state championship games includes droves of people who are there for any other reason than it being "their team" (their town or kids on the team). Go ahead and point to a few examples but I would bet 90+% of people in attendance are only there because their team is.

I'm sorry, I must not have grown up in MN and been aware of the weather here, attended home high school games, Gopher games in recent years to the end of the season, etc.

The quarterfinals are already played outdoors, on Nov 11-13, so don't know why the 1st is your benchmark.

Nov 12 (2010 middle day of quarterfinals):
Average High 43
Average Low 28
Mean 36

Nov 26 (2010 State Championship):
Average High 35
Average Low 20
Mean 28

We're talking about an 8 degree difference in the average high and low for the daily high and low. The low will likely be the temperature focused on as primetime games (5A) that bring in most attendance are played at night where temperatures have already dropped to close to the low for the night. Does anyone notice a difference between 20 and 28?

And as far as money goes, my other post goes to great lengths to show that attendance, when adjusted for driving distance to venue, does not vary much at all between indoor and outdoors.

Maybe it's changed in recent years, but when I lived in MN there were always a bunch of people attending the Prep Bowl and Basketball tourney who weren't fans of any of the teams. A group of us went to both every year between my junior year in high school to my senior year in college.

I was just trying to show how quickly the temps drop. I felt like you were making it sound like the temp wouldn't be that much different in late November.

As for your numbers in your other post, I apologize, but I'm not really understanding them. Aren't all semifinal games played in the dome as well?

 

[lakesgopher]

Yes, the semis are in the dome

 

[Catechol]

Maybe it's changed in recent years, but when I lived in MN there were always a bunch of people attending the Prep Bowl and Basketball tourney who weren't fans of any of the teams. A group of us went to both every year between my junior year in high school to my senior year in college.

I would also consider that a certain number of fans may hang around all day, for multiple games, and would not be likely to sit outside in 35 degree weather for several extra hours. Attendance per game would probably decrease.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Maybe it's changed in recent years, but when I lived in MN there were always a bunch of people attending the Prep Bowl and Basketball tourney who weren't fans of any of the teams. A group of us went to both every year between my junior year in high school to my senior year in college.

I was just trying to show how quickly the temps drop. I felt like you were making it sound like the temp wouldn't be that much different in late November.

As for your numbers in your other post, I apologize, but I'm not really understanding them. Aren't all semifinal games played in the dome as well?

I meant quarter-finals in my post. I was referencing the 2010 numbers cited earlier, and you can go to MSHSL's site to find the specific details I did (link, page 158 of the document lists the location and teams involved). Quarterfinal games are played mostly outdoors with the exception of a few at the Fargo Dome and 2 at the Metrodome. My point was to address the claim that outdoor football had a significant effect on attendance vs indoor venues for state HS football playoffs. The data that exists comparing within the same weekend and "level of play" (ie importance of the game - quarterfinals in this case) shows that outdoor football had no less attendance than indoor when taking out the factors of distance driven for fans involved.

I've been to a few Prep Bowls, and from what I can see on TV and my experience recently I stick by my numbers of 90+% of the attendance being related to one of the schools. I don't think the attendance figures from 2010 give any indication that there are a) significant fans in attendance (27k between 6 games??) to lose if weather WAS a factor and b) that there are enough fans in attendance to conclude that Joe Minnesota Football Fan attends a Prep Bowl game.

I don't think the U is the end-all be-all and that everyone sees TCF the way I do (or many on this board). But it is a great venue for football, it is truly the STATE'S stadium (see: County signs), and is run by the state's flagship university. I also understand there is a disconnect to the rest of the state, but is that any more or less true than a pro football team's stadium? Where is the outreach from the Vikings or Minneapolis Sports Commission to Cass County??. I can tell you where the U is - Extension Offices that run health programs, hospitals, 4H, and many other programs in rural areas. I also think that this is an opportunity for the U to push to BRIDGE that disconnect that exists (even if perceived), get true football fans who have never attended a Gopher game to get to the stadium and see it, possibly become fans.

I don't buy the money argument - not enough gap between outdoor/indoor attendance in quarter-finals and not enough total attendance to tell me there's a significant chunk of money to be LOST even if that did occur.

 

[supadupafly]

This has been covered a bit on here in another thread. I agree that having the games at TCF would be cool and a good thing for the U of M, but with weather/climate control of the dome, I don't see it happening. They have to use TCFBank in 2014 and 2015 and the MSHSL is already discussing the issues involved. Would they have to shorten the season or move it up? Wisconsin starts a week before MN and has their championships earlier. Move it up and you shorten the summer by a week and conflict with county fairs in outstate areas. Maybe they can just move the start of 6a and 5a up and have them plan at TCF. A showcase weekend would be fun. I think this years current format with 7 classes and eliminating the 1v8 and 2v7 games in section play for the most part is best.

I'm going to check out Owatonna and Mankato West on Friday. Should be a good game. West has a 2015 QB and Owatonna has the kid with a MN offer for 2014.

really? did you really just write that with a straight face? county fairs? some of the stuff people think others will come up with to just keep stuff the same is so funny some times.

 

[supadupafly]

Wow, worried about local county fair schedules??? Exactly 3 county fairs would have been affected by a move this past year (link).

I just don't see why we're shying away from this when we're comfortable having a MN State of Hockey Day in which teams across many age groups (down to much younger than HS age not officially related to the event) play hockey OUTSIDE in January (this year in Grand Rapids, MN - 157 miles north of Minneapolis). And yeah, TCF will have heat coils under the field. Again, the people who go to late-season and playoff games at the high school, sitting on aluminum benches that are typically open to wind coming through them would take issue with the Prep Bowl being played at TCF with a heated concourse/bathrooms, gorgeous sight-lines of downtown, and location on our states major university? Come on.

boom! you stated it all perfectly. the guys arguing for it to be indoors as if a large number of people go to the prep bowl as an all day event are not getting it and i think are off-base in their assumptions. shoot, i would suggest that far fewer people even go to multiple sessions of the state hockey tournament as they used to. would venture these days that 90+ % of the people at either the prep bowl or state hockey tournament are there to watch one game. and are specifically there to watch someone they know or the team from their town.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

boom! you stated it all perfectly. the guys arguing for it to be indoors as if a large number of people go to the prep bowl as an all day event are not getting it and i think are off-base in their assumptions. shoot, i would suggest that far fewer people even go to multiple sessions of the state hockey tournament as they used to. would venture these days that 90+ % of the people at either the prep bowl or state hockey tournament are there to watch one game. and are specifically there to watch someone they know or the team from their town.

Thanks for backing up my statements. I don't claim to be 100% right all the time (ahem, Dpodoll ) but it's nice to have someone confirm my gut based on experience.

I just personally think that TCF is a more than adequate venue in a much more than adequate neighborhood. Why would anyone on here not be in favor of adding 2 weekends of football to campus bringing in people from all over the state to utilize a gorgeous stadium. Opportunity for: recruiting, building walk-on base, building a fan base, getting people comfortable with our campus and using the stadium, support the local bars and restaurants in Dinkytown/SV, and more. The Dome and future Zygi World doesn't need this exposure the way the U does.