Souhan: The new athletic director should reassess Tubby Smith's tenure as well.

[minngg]

Who says practice facilities aren't needed? They are needed. However, to my knowledge no other school has held on to a coach that isn't winning because they didn't have a practice facility. Did players transfer because of no practice facility? Why did we play our best basketball under Tubby with Monson recruits? A practice facility needs to be approved for the U. No doubt. It would help any coach in recruiting. The U needs alumni and donors to step up too. If they had the money it would get done.

 

[minngg]

In a sea of terrible posts by you, this one really takes the cake. I mean, just wow. Your seething hatred of Tubby Smith is preventing you from thinking clearly.

First of all, Mbakwe, when healthy, is far and away the best collegiate player the Gophers have had in at least 15 years. It really isn't even close. But he got hurt, which of course is Tubby's fault.

His best interior player is sitting at well over a full calendar year of game inaction. The fact that he got hurt is, of course, Tubby's fault.

Which 9-man rotation would you rather have:

Johnson, McKenzie, Westbrook, Tollackson, Nolen, Hoffarber, D. Coleman, J. Williams, and Abu-Shamala

or

Mbakwe, Sampson, Williams, Hollins, Hollins, Walker, Welch, J. Coleman and Eliason?

If you say the former, you are at best being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and at worst flat-out lying through your teeth. Of course, the latter is not the rotation we have available, given the season-ending injuries to both Mbakwe and Walker, which are, again, clearly 100% Tubby's fault.

And this is not including the next 3 players on the bench. In 2011-12, it is Armelin, Osenieks, and Ahanmisi, each effective in their own way under limited dosage. In 2007-08, they didn't even have 3 more. It was Busch and Payton, who, while I'm sure they were nice guys, were generally completely useless as Big Ten basketball players.

And, further, none of this is taking into account the trio of solid-to-great players who would be starting and/or playing heavy minutes this season for Minnesota had they not transferred elsewhere. But again, there is no room for nuance in that discussion. Each transfer is 100% Tubby's fault, and he deserves to be pilloried, then hung, drawn and quartered, with each of his limbs sent to the far corners of the Earth to pay for his transgressions.

No, he just needs not to be extended. The former is better talent. Wasn't Trevor on our team last year? Sampson? Austin? Chip? Mav? Iverson?Rodney? 6 Big ten wins. Was Iverson the cause? The player people want to use as an excuse for 6 wins was Nolen. A Monson recruit. Where are the wins?
DJ was better than Rodney. Tollackson was better than Sampson. Westbrook was better than Austin. Hoff was better than any other gurad we have. As was Nolen. The only guard that might be better with time is Andre.

Trevor is a better player than any power forward Tubby inherited. You can attack me all you want with your generalized insults. I could care less. I am giving my opinion and I have actual results to back up my claims. I don't knock your knowledge because you disagree with me. We both want the same thing, and that is for the program to get better. It isn't IMO.

 

[dpodoll68]

DJ was better than Rodney. Tollackson was better than Sampson. Westbrook was better than Austin. Hoff was better than any other gurad we have. As was Nolen. The only guard that might be better with time is Andre.

Tollackson was NOT better than Sampson. Not even close. Tollackson was a 6'9" C who averaged 3.7 boards and .3 blocks a game, as a senior. He also shot 51% from the line while easily leading the team in FT attempts. Nolen as a freshman was not even close to Welch, Au. Hollins, Armelin, or even Andre. Nolen as a freshman was actually kind of abysmal. He shot 32% from the floor and scored 4.3 ppg while not yet displaying the lockdown defense he would later in his career. You've spent the other half of your time here (the time spent not bashing Tubby) bashing Nolen and saying how he was inconsequential in the 6-win BT season last year. And now you're saying he was better than any of our guards except Austin? Hilarious!!

Also, note how you are conveniently comparing 2008's best player to 2011's second-best player, 2008's 2nd-best player to 2011's 3rd-best player, and so on. That is because the (far and away) best player, along with the best interior player and a probable starter, are both injured. Both injuries are 100% Tubby's fault. That is the only leg you have to stand on. I, too, would rather have the 2008 roster than the 2011 roster we currently have available, but that's not your argument.

 

[BarnBurner]

Isn't it weird that the only other team in the B1G that has less NCAA postseason appearances in their history than the Gophers is Northwestern. Isn't it funny that the only other team in the B1G that doesn't have a practice facility in the B1G is Northwestern. I'm not saying that a practice facility would solve our problems, but there is some correlation..

Butler Bulldogs.

 

[BarnBurner]

By whom? Fans and the media have been critical of him the past two years or so. Maybe, because most aren't as critical as you, you think that but it's not true at all.

Being realistic and using Tubbys own results is being overly critical???

Of course......

 

[savagerube]

Butler Bulldogs.

I don't understand the connection?

 

[scher215]

I don't understand the connection?

He's saying Butler has no practice facility and they made the title game twice. So therefore, no one in college basketball needs a practice facility.

 

[savagerube]

Ha I get it, OK. Well The Gophers typically don't recruit against teams in the Horizon league. I was talking about the B1G and the recruiting competition. Apples to Oranges.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Being realistic and using Tubbys own results is being overly critical???

Of course......

Nice response. You said he has been given a free pass. That part is not true. You are more critical than most, and because very few believe exactly what you do, then in your eyes he's been given a free pass.

 

[GophersInIowa]

But the coach trots this topic out endlessly like it's going to automatically vault the team into contention.

Does he though? Is Tubby the one bringing it up all the time in press conferences? There's a huge difference if someone is asking him questions about it. The newspaper will report it as just quotes from Tubby, and it may seem like it's him bringing it up, but that may not be the case. If someone asks him about the issue, he's probably going to comment on it.

I honestly have no idea if Tubby brings it up himself a lot or not. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[MRJ]

It does take more than just new facilities to win. You also need good coaching, which I think basketball has. However, Brewster's first class at the U was very very good and was highly rated. Bad part was, he had no clue how to coach. Had, for example, Jerry Kill been head coach without the Brewster debacle we could have gotten those great recruits and had a winning coach and seen a great increase in wins. (I over simplified my argument so as to not make it to complex for BB, he has troubles sometimes)



While I agree the Practice Facility is needed, this is probably more reverse causation. Practice facilities weren't big until about 5 years ago. They weren't even fully implemented into the NBA until fairly recently. I'd say two things could be going on. Either, NW sucks so they have no practice facility (no money, desire to) or that the fact they are the last to have a practice facility also shows they have lacked timely improvements in other areas as well. I don't think you can say "NW has no practice facility, that's why they've sucked forever"



Thank you for this post. While I don't fully agree with it, it shows you can be critical of Tubby without acting like a moronic troll. So thank you for a thought out, original, conversation provoking post.

I disagree on the extension, I think you extend with a lower base salary, more friendly buy out, include provisions on the U's end for practicie facility progress, and make it very incentive based. That way you do hold him (and the school) more accountable for basketball success without hurting recruiting. The tough sell, would be convincing the public this is a good idea without big result improvements.

The practice facility I think you are right, everyone knows we need it. I think it keeps coming up for a few reasons, 1) I believe (speculating) Joel promised Tubby more progress than has been had as of right now 2) The coaches and media are touring various facilities throughout the B1G to get ideas and 3) the media asks Tubby about it and agrees we need it.

I don't think Tubby has gone so far as to use it as an excuse, he has said we need it to stay competitive, but he said at his radio show last week that while other schools will use it as "negative recruiting" against Minnesota, this is also a great area and a great school, that he loves, so it is easy to sell that as well and that he needs to focus on the great advantages that we do have here.

I would be okay with an extension based on the the criteria you suggest.

I think a heavily incentive laden extension is probably the only way to go. I doubt that Tubby would agree to a lower base salary, which would pose a problem. As such, the extension would have to include a very friendly buyout on the university's part.

I would also be more in favor of a short-term extension in addition to the incentives outlined within the contract in order to protect the university financially. I would also be in favor of a good faith jesture of progress on a practice facility by the university in addition to the contract. That way, both sides would have obligations that must be met for the duration of the contract.

The biggest thing that I would want to establish some level of balance between the two sides. As it stands, Tubby has been given way too much leverage to this point imo.

 

[BarnBurner]

Ha I get it, OK. Well The Gophers typically don't recruit against teams in the Horizon league. I was talking about the B1G and the recruiting competition. Apples to Oranges.

The Horizon provided players good enough to get to the NCAA title game in back to back years.

apples? Oranges?

Indeed.

 

[zambam]

The Horizon provided players good enough to get to the NCAA title game in back to back years.

apples? Oranges?

Indeed.

Well if that's your argument 2 years in a row a team from the Horizon has had better players than every team in the B1G. Maybe the B1G is actually really bad?

 

[BarnBurner]

Nice response. You said he has been given a free pass. That part is not true. You are more critical than most, and because very few believe exactly what you do, then in your eyes he's been given a free pass.

For the most part, he has been given a free pass. Look at you - anyone is the least bit critical and you are instantly a gopher hater, a tubby hater.

Sound.

 

[zambam]

For the most part, he has been given a free pass. Look at you - anyone is the least bit critical and you are instantly a gopher hater, a tubby hater.

Sound.

The only person saying that is Parski. GopherInIowa generally posts contradictory statistics to the general beliefs of the people that are being negative about Tubby.

 

[BarnBurner]

Well if that's your argument 2 years in a row a team from the Horizon has had better players than every team in the B1G. Maybe the B1G is actually really bad?

Facts (I know this will be difficult for you Z): Butler has no practice facility, plays in the Horizon (which I have just been told is apples/oranges to Big 10), has a no name coach, and played in the marquee game in back to back years.

NO ONE said the big 10 or its players are really that bad.

 

[BarnBurner]

The only person saying that is Parski. GopherInIowa generally posts contradictory statistics to the general beliefs of the people that are being negative about Tubby.

Iowa just proved you wrong Z.

 

[zambam]

Facts (I know this will be difficult for you Z): Butler has no practice facility, plays in the Horizon (which I have just been told is apples/oranges to Big 10), has a no name coach, and played in the marquee game in back to back years.

NO ONE said the big 10 or its players are really that bad.

Fact: Butler without a practice facility and with a no-name coach has played in the past 2 championship games.
Fact: No teams in the Big Ten, despite having practice facilities and big name coaches, have played in the past 2 championship games.
You apply this only to the Gophers, why not just throw the entire Big Ten in there? Cause it doesn't help your argument?
Either way it IS apples to oranges because we recruit against teams in the Big Ten, not teams in the Horizon League. Teams in the Big Ten can all say "Why would you go to Minnesota when we have this fancy practice facility and you can practice whenever you want, and you can't do any of that there!?"
Is it really that hard for you to understand?

Iowa just proved you wrong Z.

Not really.

FACT: People have been critical of Tubby, and not giving him a free pass.

FACT: You have been more critical than most people so because no one is as critical as you, you think they are given a free pass.

 

[BarnBurner]

Fact: Butler without a practice facility and with a no-name coach has played in the past 2 championship games.
Fact: No teams in the Big Ten, despite having practice facilities and big name coaches, have played in the past 2 championship games.
You apply this only to the Gophers, why not just throw the entire Big Ten in there? Cause it doesn't help your argument?
Either way it IS apples to oranges because we recruit against teams in the Big Ten, not teams in the Horizon League. Teams in the Big Ten can all say "Why would you go to Minnesota when we have this fancy practice facility and you can practice whenever you want, and you can't do any of that there!?"
Is it really that hard for you to understand?


Not really.

FACT: People have been critical of Tubby, and not giving him a free pass.

FACT: You have been more critical than most people so because no one is as critical as you, you think they are given a free pass.

So, to be clear, MN recruits excusively against Big 10 teams? Yes or no.

 

[zambam]

So, to be clear, MN recruits excusively against Big 10 teams? Yes or no.

No, but they don't recruit against Horizon league teams. Also quite a few of the players we recruit regionally will be recruited by Big Ten teams.

 

[savagerube]

The Horizon provided players good enough to get to the NCAA title game in back to back years.

apples? Oranges?

Indeed.

So you're indirectly saying that the Horizon League is better than every other conference because they had a team that made the finals two straight years? So The Horizon players are better than Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, Syracuse.. Got it.

 

[BarnBurner]

No, but they don't recruit against Horizon league teams. Also quite a few of the players we recruit regionally will be recruited by Big Ten teams.

So, based on your statements, no Big 10 team would recruit the kids that played their way to the NCAA Title game?

Me thinks you are delerious. Most teams in the big 10 would have loved to had a few of the players on those Butler teams.

 

[BarnBurner]

So you're indirectly saying that the Horizon League is better than every other conference because they had a team that made the finals two straight years? So The Horizon players are better than Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, Syracuse.. Got it.

No, did not say anything of the sort. I am saying Butler made it to the title game without a practice facility. Did you follow the thread, or are you simply taking potshots?

The Butler TEAM was better than the teams you mentioned in the title game appearance years, yes. Hard to argue that one when one team plays for the title and the others are home....

 

[savagerube]

No, did not say anything of the sort. I am saying Butler made it to the title game without a practice facility. Did you follow the thread, or are you simply taking potshots?

The Butler TEAM was better than the teams you mentioned in the title game appearance years, yes. Hard to argue that one when one team plays for the title and the others are home....

I was reading the whole thread, that's why I thought it was weird that you referred to a Horizon League team when the conversation was about B1G practice facilities. The reason why Butler doesn't have a practice facility is probably because it's rare for teams in their conference to have them. So when you compare a Horizon league team to a B1G team, you open the door to compare Butler to any other team in the country since there is no correlation between B1G and Butler.

 

[zambam]

So, based on your statements, no Big 10 team would recruit the kids that played their way to the NCAA Title game?

Me thinks you are delerious. Most teams in the big 10 would have loved to had a few of the players on those Butler teams.

Matt Howard had interest from Purdue. ESPN doesn't say if he had an offer. Gordon Hayward had interest from 3 B1G schools, ESPN doesn't list any offers. So ya, they recruited the 2 best players. That's it.