Souhan on MN not making tourney: "is not only embarrassing, it's revealing"

Donate To GopherHole
THE SCOUT! said:
rpi factors in competition played. The gophs dont play roads games at NDSU and SDSU for more than just financial reasons. Factoring 6pt home court advantage the gophs pick up 12 pts playing these teams exclusively at Williams. if dre was so good right now he would have played more and put up numbers for a 90 rpi team. Nate put up the numbers under intense defensive scrutiny. Dre was not focal point of defenses like Nate is.
Click to expand...
And yet you ignore what I said. If Wolters had originally chosen the Gophers it can be argued his development would not have been the same due to lack of playing time early on, so he likely wouldn't have been as good as he is now. Also, you put way too much into RPI effecting how good the players on a team are.
 

The thing that I always find funny is how the local sports media goes to great lengths to gush about guys like Fred Hoiberg. I actually like Hoiberg, but the article is funny because it refers to Hoiberg's "class" at the same time that it acknowledges that his NCAA appearance is largely the product of a kid kicked out of the U for stealing jeans and computers.

I like Hoiberg, so this isn't even a rip on him. However, could you imagine the backlash from idiots like Souhan if the U tried to build their program like Iowa St by adding:
Chris Allen - kicked off team at Michigan State
Royce White - kicked off team at Minnesota
Korie Lucious - essentially kicked off Michigan State (he was suspended for most of last year) - sitting out this season
Chris Babb - Penn State transfer (I'm not sure why he transferred)
Will CLyburn - Utah transfer
Godfrey - already kicked out of Iowa St. The Gophers didn't pursue him because he was full of red flags, went to Iowa State and lasted two years.

Now, I am not even ripping on Hoiberg for this strategy, but if Tubby went this route, do you think Soupcan would describe him as classy?
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The thing that I always find funny is how the local sports media goes to great lengths to gush about guys like Fred Hoiberg. I actually like Hoiberg, but the article is funny because it refers to Hoiberg's "class" at the same time that it acknowledges that his NCAA appearance is largely the product of a kid kicked out of the U for stealing jeans and computers.

I like Hoiberg, so this isn't even a rip on him. However, could you imagine the backlash from idiots like Souhan if the U tried to build their program like Iowa St by adding:
Chris Allen - kicked off team at Michigan State
Royce White - kicked off team at Minnesota
Korie Lucious - essentially kicked off Michigan State (he was suspended for most of last year) - sitting out this season
Chris Babb - Penn State transfer (I'm not sure why he transferred)
Will CLyburn - Utah transfer
Godfrey - already kicked out of Iowa St. The Gophers didn't pursue him because he was full of red flags, went to Iowa State and lasted two years.

Now, I am not even ripping on Hoiberg for this strategy, but if Tubby went this route, do you think Soupcan would describe him as classy?
Click to expand...

I don't know about Souhan, but I am sure that minngg, etal, would be happy as long as we won a few more games.
 

In our provincial state, this means the NCAA tournament is all about us,
Click to expand...

Who tf is provincial? Maybe the guy who wrote the freakin' article?
 

zambam said:
This isn't the argument though. If he were on the team for just this year he would've been great. The argument is that if he had played for the Gophers originally he would not have experienced the same development for the obvious reason of not playing nearly as much.
Click to expand...

Idiot alert!
 


NurumbiCongo said:
Idiot alert!
Click to expand...
If making logical argument makes me an idiot, go right ahead and call me an idiot. The fact is, people are saying that Tubby should have signed Wolters because of how good he is now, but it is impossible to say if he would have become the player he is now while getting less playing time and playing in more strict offensive system.
 

savagerube said:
Didn't Long Beach State go the dance the year before Monson arrived on campus?
Click to expand...


I believe that Long Beach State got trashed, thrashed and bashed by the NCAAfor all kinds of cheating stuff by their previous coaching staff. It was MONSON TO THE RESCUE to clean up the program and work through the probation...and many penalties that the NCAA imposed. He basically came in to save the program from itself...just like he had done here in Minnesota with haskin's scandal-prone Gophers.

Monson has done one hell of a great job at Long Beach State.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2008-03-06-longbeach-penalty_N.htm

Monson is a very good coach.

; 0 )
 

bemidjigopher said:
If Wolters was so good and the gophers are so bad one would think they would've beaten the gophers in one of his four years. Cobbs was third string when he was here, he'd be starting now since Devoe left, but if both were still here Cobbs would probably be coming off the bench, slso know Welch and Mav which at that point I could live with. I'm not sure what Devoe did, but if you break team rules than you should be held accountable, I don't know why people think it should be any different. It's too bad, would've fun to see him and Dre in the backcourt. Iverson know that EE was emerging and left, I remember Tubby saying it would solve a problem dividing minutes that EE was starting to earn. Royce White, well not much needs to be said there. I feel like rince, cycle and repeat when it comes to this subject it is what it is. People transfer, people get hurt, we've just been hammered with those two things the last three years, but I think we have a group that will stick it out. Time will tell, hopfully were not having this convo next year
Click to expand...

Well, since Nate is a JR, I don't think he has played the Gophers 4 times. Add to that, MN would never play in SD, SDSU always comes here and had a 2nd half lead. How could the Wolves only win 17 games last year with a player as good as Kevin Love?
 

imthewalrus said:
I believe that Long Beach State got trashed, thrashed and bashed by the NCAAfor all kinds of cheating stuff by their previous coaching staff. It was MONSON TO THE RESCUE to clean up the program and work through the probation...and many penalties that the NCAA imposed. He basically came in to save the program from itself...just like he had done here in Minnesota with haskin's scandal-prone Gophers.

Monson has done one hell of a great job at Long Beach State.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2008-03-06-longbeach-penalty_N.htm

Monson is a very good coach.

; 0 )
Click to expand...

Be careful. You will be called a Monson lover/apologist. Nobody that left here can be good.
 



minngg said:
Be careful. You will be called a Monson lover/apologist. Nobody that left here can be good.
Click to expand...
If you leave Gopherhole I promise to call you good!
 

Okay fine he is 0-3 against the gophers and will probably be 0-4 when he leaves. The Wolves 17 games because nobody played any defense on that team. I would actually like it if the gophers went to Fargo and Brookings, I don't think it's any different than going to Ft.Collions to play CSU, or to play St.Joes in Philly, certainly better than LaSalle. NDSU, they could play in the Fargo Dome, get about 14,000 people in there. Heck if they went to Grand Forks and played the Sioux they could play it in the ice rink and get a crowd almost as big as Williams Arena. Monson was a nic guy, by all accounts, he just didn't get it done, but Tubby has credentials so he will get a longer leash from the Athletic Department, but even he will have to produce in the next two years or Tubby will be sent packing as well.
 

Dean S said:
Whether or not Souhan can write is immaterial to what he clearly argues -- that the team would have been better if all these players remained: Colton Iverson, Royce White, Devoe Joseph, and Justin Cobbs. They are all upper upperclassmen and highly experienced players. What we lacked this year are upperclassmen, and for some reason, many want to give Tubby Smith a pass for losing all these players. People do not leave places where they are treated with respect, that is a well known and well researched fact in so many areas of life, it is not worth arguing against. There are mountains of data. Obviously, with White, there were legal issues. But, somebody took him under his wing and is getting some results from him. Could we not have approached all these players as individuals and found ways to address them as men with mercy and justice? If we did, how would that effect the team and would the season be different as a result. I think it would have been considerably different.

My primary problem with Coach Smith is that there was a lack of reconciliation with all these students. Great coaches know that discipline is a virtue not to be taken lightly. Yet, they also know that being merciful, having compassion, and trying to move the student to reconcile with the team and coaching staff are part of becoming a man of character. Somehow, our school could not meet the needs of these students and that is concerning to me as it puts the U in a bad light. This is one of the cudgels other recruiters will use against the U in a conversation -- see all the players who have left Tubby. They will point to the fact that these kids are doing just fine at their current schools and they are succeeding in basketball without coach Smith.

I don't care what personal opinion of Souhan others suggest as being true. Souhan asserts that we had great players on the team that have resigned and moved on to places that welcomed them and allowed them to flourish. I don't think it is helpful to speak derisively of these players or Souhan. For the sake of argument, it is okay to question the performance of a coach who lost these players and could not find it possible to retain them. Why? I think it is likely that they found their personal relationship to with the coach to be strained and unresolved. We are not looking for saints on the team. We look for students who can do well as students, play the game well enough to win, and can develop good character as men. Apparently, many on GH find that some of these players could never fit in here. That seems too convenient of a justification as to why 5 good players left the program. 5 is a large number on a team to leave in such a short period of time. What is certain is that Tubby Smith was the coach at the helm at the time they left.
Click to expand...

You should reread your last 5 or 6 posts, you've been screaming for Tubby's head for some time. Since you are not an insider you can only guess and your improbable fantasy just happens to match your documented, preconceived ideas. I wonder how anyone can hate a coach so much they have to make up a body of lies and innuendo to try to prove their point. It's only a game.
 

howieramone said:
You should reread your last 5 or 6 posts, you've been screaming for Tubby's head for some time. Since you are not an insider you can only guess and your improbable fantasy just happens to match your documented, preconceived ideas. I wonder how anyone can hate a coach so much they have to make up a body of lies and innuendo to try to prove their point. It's only a game.
Click to expand...

You can call for a change without hating anyone. Ultimately, it is the coaches responsibility to recruit, keep and develop players. It is called accountability. If Tubby was 12-6 lastyear and this year he went to 8-10 because we lost TM, no big deal. Bad luck happens. However, when your best player gets hurt and you are 6-12 and even with that player you are probably , at best, 10-8 in his senior year, well I have no sympathy for the bad luck. The program is simply not sdeep enough.
 



howieramone said:
You should reread your last 5 or 6 posts, you've been screaming for Tubby's head for some time. Since you are not an insider you can only guess and your improbable fantasy just happens to match your documented, preconceived ideas. I wonder how anyone can hate a coach so much they have to make up a body of lies and innuendo to try to prove their point. It's only a game.
Click to expand...

I don't think I am screaming for his head. I am asking that he be held accountable for his performance, including: player turnover, competitiveness, and long term potential.

When I spoke about reconciliation, I specifically mean that he had an opportunity to change the minds of 5 students who left, but he failed to do so in each case.

You are correct, I am not an insider. I have no connection to the basketball team or staff. BFD! As an observer of the program, I can see areas of weakness that challenge the potential of the program and the potential to maximize revenue. The 5 players who left the program are thriving outside our program, indicating to me, that they could have had that type of success here as well. The responsibility to sustain players that can perform well for the program is Tubby Smith. Making a claim, like I have, that he hasn't reconciled with the players is reasonable when evidence suggests that they are 1) students in good academic standing with other colleges 2) they are performing well within DI programs 3) the players were not disqualified for character issues at the other institutions. Because of these reasons, one should question the performance of a coach and athletic department for losing these players. Do you really disagree because there were other causes that compelled these students to leave the program; or, is it that you are an insider and feel threatened by my assertions? Disclosure would be only fair.
 



BleedGopher said:
Not worth clicking, but for those that care:

Stars come out once they get out

You might have thought it was a rough weekend for local basketball, what with Ricky Rubio hurting his knee and the Gophers again stubbing their toes, but on Sunday we were reminded that Minnesota is, indeed, as the Wild's marketing team always argues, "The State of Basketball."

The NCAA tournament bracket proves it. Whether you prefer a Mayor or killer Jackrabbits, those who fled or he who was dismissed, every Minnesotan who loves the game can find someone to care about in a 68-team bracket that treated the Gophers the way Randy Moss treats caterers.

How would you like to watch a Minnesota team coached by Fred Hoiberg and featuring Justin Cobbs at the point, Nate Wolters at shooting guard and Royce White at forward?

You'll get to see them all in the NCAA tournament, if not together on the same court or wearing the same school colors.

Sunday afternoon, the NCAA selection committee revealed its field, turning college basketball into the only sport that argues about who's No. 69. The committee's seedings led to CBS' Greg Anthony raving about Wolters and ESPN's Digger Phelps praising White.

In our provincial state, this means the NCAA tournament is all about us, even if our only Division I basketball program has trouble making the NIT.

On Wednesday, California will face South Florida in a play-in game. Cal features Cobbs, the former Gopher, whose season highlight might have been his high-scoring duel with Oregon's Devoe Joseph, another former Gopher who might have been useful to Tubby Smith this season.

On Thursday, Hoiberg, the classy former Timberwolves player and executive, will coach Iowa State against defending champion Connecticut in Louisville, Ky. Hoiberg took a chance on another former Gopher, White, who has thrived in Ames this season.

Also on Thursday in Louisville, Colorado State will play Murray State. Colorado State is where Colton Iverson, the former Gophers center, landed after he left Minnesota. And even though he sat out the season because of the transfer rule and has one year of eligibility remaining, he told the Star Tribune last week: "I just felt I had more to offer a program."

In Albuquerque, N.M., on Thursday, the Jackrabbits of South Dakota State will face Baylor. The Jackrabbits are a No. 14 seed, but Baylor, despite its size, is erratic, and Wolters, the Jackrabbits guard, has faced long odds before. He handled the ball in St. Cloud Tech's stalling offense in the Class 4A semifinals in 2009 against White's remarkably talented Hopkins team. He finished with a game-high 17 points and had Tech within one point at halftime before Hopkins, the eventual champion, ran away in the second half.

Wolters leads the Jackrabbits in scoring (21.3), rebounding (5.2), assists (6.0) and free-throw percentage (78.6). The kid is a star, and it would be redundant and perhaps cruel at this point to note that he is a Minnesotan who could have helped the Gophers.

On Thursday in Portland, former Gophers coach Dan Monson will coach Long Beach State against New Mexico and Lobos coach Steve Alford, another Big Ten alum. Monson won big at Gonzaga. He never seemed comfortable at Minnesota but did run a clean program in the wake of Clem Haskins' embarrassing gaffes, and took a limited team to the NCAA tournament in 2005. He has built a winner from nothing in Long Beach.

Minnesota's inability to become one of the best 68 teams in the country for a second consecutive season is not only embarrassing, it's revealing. The committee downgraded a 30-win team from Missouri from a potential No. 1 seed to the eighth overall seed in the tournament because of Missouri's weak nonconference schedule.

The Gophers this season played Bucknell, Fairfield, Mount St. Mary's, Appalachian State and St. Peter's. Smith tried to schedule either Cretin or Derham Hall but did not want to take on both at the same time.

The NCAA tournament proves Minnesota produces great basketball. You just need to leave Minnesota, or purchase an excellent satellite dish, to see it.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/142276375.html

Go Gophers!!
Click to expand...

Souhan is a DB
 



minngg said:
He is a DB. But this column is right.
Click to expand...

Right about what? That the Gophers may have been better the last two years, and idiots would not be calling for his head if the following players had not transferred or had season ending inuries: White, Iverson, Joseph, Cobbs, Walker, Nolan and Mbakwe?

Wow...start engraving a friggin' Pulitzer for him.
 


savagerube said:
He's not right about Monson turning around Long Beach State. They went to the dance the year before he got there.
Click to expand...

So your position is that LBSu was in good shape when Monson got there? Right? Just like it was when he got here just a couple of years after we were in the final four, right?
 

Unregistered User said:
Right about what? That the Gophers may have been better the last two years, and idiots would not be calling for his head if the following players had not transferred or had season ending inuries: White, Iverson, Joseph, Cobbs, Walker, Nolan and Mbakwe?

Wow...start engraving a friggin' Pulitzer for him.
Click to expand...

No, I think his point is a little bigger than that. Try the real point of the article if you can comprehend it.
 

I was hoping this article would not get popular so that I wouldn't have to spend the time to comment on it, but what the heck. The biggest comment from Souhan that "irked" me was this:

The NCAA tournament proves Minnesota produces great basketball.
Click to expand...

This is not at all what this years NCAA proves. At least not using the facts Souhan presented. If this was the point he wanted to make, he should have mentioned Jordan Taylor and the band of Minnesotans at Wisconsin or Dower at Gonzaga, Wolters and White made sense to talk about. Maybe a head coach who was actually born in Minnesota and not one who just happened to be employed by the professional team here? Where is the article ripping the Wolves because clearly MN produces great basketball considering we drafted Ray Allen and Brandon Roy for 5 minutes. Maybe find a head coach that wasn't a Gophers coach, but other than that, had no ties to Minnesota.

All Souhan tried to do here was make his reader more upset at Tubby. He is trying to make a person without facts say, he just named a bunch of players/coaches that did well this year and Minnesota didn't do well so ... FIRE TUBBY AND CUT THE WHOLE ROSTER WE SUCK!!!!!!!

If Tubby never recruited Cobbs, Iverson, or Devoe they'd just be some other player that no one on this board cared about. Minnesota didn't produce great basketball here, I am sure California, South Dakota, and Canada had more to do with it than Minnesota did. I've also gotta think playing in Ames and growing up in Nebraska had more to do with Hoiberg's success than his stint with the Timberwolves. Monson would probably credit his success to things outside of his 8 year career as the Gophers coach.

It is obvious all of these players were former Gophers, with the exception of Wolters, and they are doing pretty well. If Souhan truly believes Minnesota, Tubby Smith, and Joel Maturi produced this great basketball, well he should get a lifetime contract and a humanitarian award for the great work he and the state has done with Hoiberg, Monson, Cobbs, Iverson, etc. for producing them.

or maybe what he sould have said was "Minnesota has recruited and signed some great basketball players, this years NCAA tournament proves that. The problem is, it has done a poor job finding talent to actually continue playing here." then leave out the whole Hoiberg, Monson thing. Unless his argument is we should have hired Hoiberg, but still not fired Monson?

To Minngg's point above, I wish I could tell you the point of this article, but the 8 different points he tries to make with the same argument and short space doesn't make it very clear.

Does the state high school system produce good talent? Does Tubby Smith sign good players? Does Tubby Smith lose good players? Does getting fired as the Gophers coach cause you to become a talented coach? Does our pro team here have a strong reputation for signing guys that will eventually be good college coaches? Did a kid from MN with no Division 1 offers make the NCAA tournament?

The only one of those that I think fits is that Tubby Smith loses good players. But then I am not sure the reasoning for including Hoiberg, Monson, and Wolters?

What exactly is his point?

What this article proves is that the Pioneer Press produces great writing. You just have to have a different subscription to find it.
 


scher215 said:
I was hoping this article would not get popular so that I wouldn't have to spend the time to comment on it, but what the heck. The biggest comment from Souhan that "irked" me was this:


This is not at all what this years NCAA proves. At least not using the facts Souhan presented. If this was the point he wanted to make, he should have mentioned Jordan Taylor and the band of Minnesotans at Wisconsin or Dower at Gonzaga, Wolters and White made sense to talk about. Maybe a head coach who was actually born in Minnesota and not one who just happened to be employed by the professional team here? Where is the article ripping the Wolves because clearly MN produces great basketball considering we drafted Ray Allen and Brandon Roy for 5 minutes. Maybe find a head coach that wasn't a Gophers coach, but other than that, had no ties to Minnesota.

All Souhan tried to do here was make his reader more upset at Tubby. He is trying to make a person without facts say, he just named a bunch of players/coaches that did well this year and Minnesota didn't do well so ... FIRE TUBBY AND CUT THE WHOLE ROSTER WE SUCK!!!!!!!

If Tubby never recruited Cobbs, Iverson, or Devoe they'd just be some other player that no one on this board cared about. Minnesota didn't produce great basketball here, I am sure California, South Dakota, and Canada had more to do with it than Minnesota did. I've also gotta think playing in Ames and growing up in Nebraska had more to do with Hoiberg's success than his stint with the Timberwolves. Monson would probably credit his success to things outside of his 8 year career as the Gophers coach.

It is obvious all of these players were former Gophers, with the exception of Wolters, and they are doing pretty well. If Souhan truly believes Minnesota, Tubby Smith, and Joel Maturi produced this great basketball, well he should get a lifetime contract and a humanitarian award for the great work he and the state has done with Hoiberg, Monson, Cobbs, Iverson, etc. for producing them.
Click to expand...

I thnk what he is saying is that all of those players have Mn ties. Either born here, played here, coached here, whatever. Most are succeeding but not here. Why?
Something brought these kids, players or coaches to MN to play or coach, but they all had to leave to be successful. Why? If all had stayed and played here or coached here, we would be successful. Some is about Tubby, some is not.
 

There is no point to calling for the head of a coach week after week. The question Souhan raises is why did these student-athletes leave and succeed when they could have done so here with our HOF coach, Tubby Smith. Lol
 

Dean S said:
There is no point to calling for the head of a coach week after week. The question Souhan raises is why did these student-athletes leave and succeed when they could have done so here with our HOF coach, Tubby Smith. Lol
Click to expand...

So what does hoiberg, Monson, and Wolters success have to do with Tubby? Why bring them up?
 

minngg said:
I thnk what he is saying is that all of those players have Mn ties. Either born here, played here, coached here, whatever. Most are succeeding but not here. Why?
Something brought these kids, players or coaches to MN to play or coach, but they all had to leave to be successful. Why? If all had stayed and played here or coached here, we would be successful. Some is about Tubby, some is not.
Click to expand...

You actually answered my question pretty well. Thank you.

I still don't see what hard hitting case he is trying to make though? Is it that there is something inherently wrong with this state? That Minnesota in general is just an awful place? (he has said similar things before, so maybe that's it?)

And for that matter, what do Hoiberg, Wolters, or Monson have to do with Minnesota not making the tournament? Is he suggesting if we had hired hoiberg, but also never fired Monson and signed Wolters we'd have made the tournament this year?

I guess what you described as the point is accurate, I just don't see the necessity of publishing it? What is the proposed solution? What is the reason for the problem? Is it the whether? Is it the Vikings (damn them!)? is it Tubby? Is it Maturi?

It just came across to me as a, here's a list of guys that are somehow connected to Minnesota (he could have also thrown in DeAndre Daniels with UCONN as I believe he has an uncle or something who is from here?) and they are doing pretty well. Interesting, huh? But with that negative, snarky, tone that he loves so much like he is trying really hard to blame someone, but just can't decide who.

The word produced great basketball kind of threw me off. Maybe saying, Minnesota has some great basketball connections and this years NCAA tournament proves it would have been better?
 


You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom