So much for that!

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zambam said:
This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. If it was so obvious that Tubby is mailing it in do you really think that in 2 years we will be able to hire a young successful coach without grossly overpaying?
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Please. Dozens of coaches would gladly take a Big 10 position for half Tubby's money.
And among them will be soem rising young coaches who have promise. Tubby may not
be the worst D-1 coach there is. But without a doubt he's the least productive for the
money paid.
 

Anybody who would prefer the NOT over the NCAA tournament is not a fan. Why would you want to the gophers to lose to get to the NIT instead of pulling off some exciting upsets and getting in?
Makes zero sense.
 


scher215 said:
Draymond green, Jon shurna, Taylor battle, William Buford, David lighty, Trevor mbakwe, Jordan Taylor, Jon leuer, Robbie Hummel, etwaun Moore, kalin Lucas, juwaun Johnson ...

Should I continue?

(sorry in advance about the numerous spelling mistakes, being lazy)
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All those players were great before their junior/senior years.
 



GophersInIowa said:
What is your point? He's responding to someone who said difference makers hardly ever stay for their senior season.
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Exactly. And JT wasn't exactly a world beater his freshman year. I am very hopeful with the fact that Andre was able to put up senior Taylor like numbers as a freshman. He's gotta be consistent with it, but it is good to see.
 

GophersInIowa said:
What is your point? He's responding to someone who said difference makers hardly ever stay for their senior season.
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Oh I agree with you, his argument is invalid. My point is that saying the Gopher's lack of success boils down to them being a young team is stupid. Minnesota has, give or take 1-2, just as many upperclassmen as most teams in the Big Ten. The problem is that, at least to date, the upperclassmen have not progressed enough throughout their careers, with the exception of Mbakwe, to have an All Big Ten impact. It's not just about having upperclassmen, it's about having upperclassmen that play like upperclassmen.
 

Badger2010 said:
Oh I agree with you, his argument is invalid. My point is that saying the Gopher's lack of success boils down to them being a young team is stupid. Minnesota has, give or take 1-2, just as many upperclassmen as most teams in the Big Ten. The problem is that, at least to date, the upperclassmen have not progressed enough throughout their careers, with the exception of Mbakwe, to have an All Big Ten impact. It's not just about having upperclassmen, it's about having upperclassmen that play like upperclassmen.
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The gophers have 4 upperclassmen. 1 is Ralph. 1 is Rodney. And the other two are JUCO's playing their first big 10 basketball.
 



Whathavewedone said:
Most with an modicum of functioning brain cells see 9-9 as a PIPEDREAM.
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You aren't serious, are you? Do you know anything about college basketball or the NCAA tournament? For this post and for many others, I am embarrassed for you. Long overdue, but you've made my ignore list as well.
 

scher215 said:
The gophers have 4 upperclassmen. 1 is Ralph. 1 is Rodney. And the other two are JUCO's playing their first big 10 basketball.
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Not only that, 5 of our 6 guards are underclassmen, with 3 sophs and 2 true frosh, and then Welch as a JUCO. Is there any shock as to why we struggle to get into any kind of offense and can be very streaky when you have that kind of inexperience out there?

That said, in two years, we'll have 5 experienced guards out there with 3 seniors and 2 juniors. If that happens, we will be in far better shape.
 

scher215 said:
The gophers have 4 upperclassmen. 1 is Ralph. 1 is Rodney. And the other two are JUCO's playing their first big 10 basketball.
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The Badgers have 5. JT and Rob Wilson, a seldom-played 2 guard, are the only seniors.

The Buckeyes have 2. William Buford and some junior named Evan Ravenel, I don't know, he rarely plays.

Michigan State has 6, but two of the players average less than a minute per game.


The point is, winning with a young team is very possible. Look at Purdue a few years back when Hummell, Moore, Johnson and Kramer were underclassmen, they went 15-3 in conference and it's not like Purdue is some blue-blood basketball school that constantly reloads with high school All Americans.

It's about player development and good coaching. When looking at the Gopher squads under Tubby, it really hasn't mattered how old the team is/was.

2007-2008: 7 upperclassmen (10 including rsSophs); 20-14 (8-10)
2008-2009: 7 upperclassmen; 22-11 (9-9) record
2009-2010: 7 upperclassmen; 21-14 (9-9) record
2010-2011: 5 upperclassmen; 17-14 (6-12) record
2011-2012: 4 upperclassmen (2 JUCO) 17-8 (5-7) record so far.



Every year the Gophers are good for about 20 wins and a near .500 Big Ten record. I'm not saying that is the Gopher's ceiling at all, just what they've been averaging consistently for a while now. They are habitually on the bubble come March.
 




gopherinpain said:
Maybe you are thrilled with O NCAA wins in 5 years under Tubby. Some of us had higher expectations that is all.
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The fact is that 20% of the NCAA births in the history of the program have been under Tubby Smith. If you go by the "book" and you don't count the academic fraudulent years, Tubby has coached 33% of the NCAA teams in Gopher basketball history. I don't think Tubby's the problem; I think some fans' expectations are an issue. Before Tubby, the Gophers went to back-to-back NCAA tourney's ONCE. I would also like to see more success but it's not like we were ever a perennial NCAA tourney team. So with that said, technically Tubby Smith is the most successful Gophers basketball coach of all time. Obviously Clem was a great coach but you can't argue against the official record books. So it goes back to the inevitable question: What are we basing our expectations on? Are we basing it on Tubby as a successful coach at an established program (Kentucky)? Or are we basing our expectations on Tubby having a level of success here that has never been seen?
 

Replacing Tubby is not an option until we get a new AD and at least fund the new practice facility...otherwise our marginal facilities and average pay will not attract a top up and coming talent.

I am extremely frustrated as well and not a huge Tubby fan...but am being realistic. The loss of Mbakwe was the difference in both IA games, last nights game, any hope we have against MSU. We don't stand a chance against tOSU even with Trevor. But this teams beats IA twice and splits with Sconnie and we are safely in the dance...Trevor alone could have carried those three victories.

We have no chance of getting over the top until we can recruit a Top 50 recruit every other year...something we have never been able to do. But no Asst coach at Duke or NC or Syracuse is going to come to MN until we have facilities and an AD that is committed to winning!
 

Or are we basing our expectations on Tubby having a level of success here that has never been seen?
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Bill Musselman 38-22 B10 record

Jim Dutcher 98-89

Clem Haskins About .500 if you include the vacated games.

Tubby Smith 37-47

Got anything else?
 

gopherinpain said:
Bill Musselman 38-22 B10 record

Jim Dutcher 98-89

Clem Haskins About .500 if you include the vacated games.

Tubby Smith 37-47

Got anything else?
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Yeah, what is Clem without the vacated games?
 

savagerube said:
The fact is that 20% of the NCAA births in the history of the program have been under Tubby Smith. If you go by the "book" and you don't count the academic fraudulent years, Tubby has coached 33% of the NCAA teams in Gopher basketball history. I don't think Tubby's the problem; I think some fans' expectations are an issue. Before Tubby, the Gophers went to back-to-back NCAA tourney's ONCE. I would also like to see more success but it's not like we were ever a perennial NCAA tourney team. So with that said, technically Tubby Smith is the most successful Gophers basketball coach of all time. Obviously Clem was a great coach but you can't argue against the official record books. So it goes back to the inevitable question: What are we basing our expectations on? Are we basing it on Tubby as a successful coach at an established program (Kentucky)? Or are we basing our expectations on Tubby having a level of success here that has never been seen?
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Not a fair analysis. Prior to 1985 it was a field of 48 and before that -even fewer teams, 36 to 40 teams. Fact is that Tubby has gotten in twice at 9-9 by the grace of weak fields and a prayer shot by Hoff. No matter how much sugar you pour on his record it still is weak and is not at all unlike Monson's record in winning percentage in conference and in NCAA appearances/ success. I'm not one who wants Tubby fired. In fact I think this may be his best coaching job since he arrived in that he is finally showing a bit of flexibility in personnel and schemes.
 

GopherinPhilly said:
Replacing Tubby is not an option until we get a new AD and at least fund the new practice facility...otherwise our marginal facilities and average pay will not attract a top up and coming talent.

I am extremely frustrated as well and not a huge Tubby fan...but am being realistic. The loss of Mbakwe was the difference in both IA games, last nights game, any hope we have against MSU. We don't stand a chance against tOSU even with Trevor. But this teams beats IA twice and splits with Sconnie and we are safely in the dance...Trevor alone could have carried those three victories.

We have no chance of getting over the top until we can recruit a Top 50 recruit every other year...something we have never been able to do. But no Asst coach at Duke or NC or Syracuse is going to come to MN until we have facilities and an AD that is committed to winning!
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Wisconsin has landed two top 50 recruits during Bo's tenure and one hasn't even set foot on campus yet. Getting Top 50 talent is not a must to win, by an stretch.
 

scher215 said:
Yeah, what is Clem without the vacated games?
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It doesn't matter. The cheating was stupid but we have now way of know what his record would have been one way or another. All we know is what we see now on court versus what we saw then in terms of development, schemes and the loyalty of the players. 37 and 47 is what it is. Not good enough- need to see better at this price. Not saying I'm giving up,not at all, but this is not at the level we want.
 

scher215 said:
Yeah, what is Clem without the vacated games?
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You're now changing the argument. We were talking about NCAA appearances. I'm well aware of what the B1G records are for each coach. I am also aware of NCAA appearances for each coach: Dutcher: one appearance in 11 seasons. Musselman: One appearance in 5 seasons. Tubby: Two appearances in 5 seasons. Now how do you want to change the conversation this time?
 

bga1 said:
Not a fair analysis. Prior to 1985 it was a field of 48 and before that -even fewer teams, 36 to 40 teams. Fact is that Tubby has gotten in twice at 9-9 by the grace of weak fields and a prayer shot by Hoff. No matter how much sugar you pour on his record it still is weak and is not at all unlike Monson's record in winning percentage in conference and in NCAA appearances/ success. I'm not one who wants Tubby fired. In fact I think this may be his best coaching job since he arrived in that he is finally showing a bit of flexibility in personnel and schemes.
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Ok. Since 1985 Tubby has coached 40% of the NCAA teams that are currently in the official record books.
 

bga1 said:
Not a fair analysis. Prior to 1985 it was a field of 48 and before that -even fewer teams, 36 to 40 teams.
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That doesn't change the fact that all other Big Ten teams of that era had the same chance to make it. Northwestern never has. And, which team in the pre-expansion Big Ten is next for fewest appearances??? Minnesota. We have very little history.

bga1 said:
Fact is that Tubby has gotten in twice at 9-9 by the grace of weak fields and a prayer shot by Hoff.
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Tubby went to the NIT the year Hoff hit his prayer shot. Tubby went to the NCAA the two years after that.
 

gopher000 said:
Anybody who would prefer the NOT over the NCAA tournament is not a fan. Why would you want to the gophers to lose to get to the NIT instead of pulling off some exciting upsets and getting in?
Makes zero sense.
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Think it thru. Nobody ever said we want the Gophers to lose at any time. I always felt with a young team I would prefer they go to the NIT where they have a chance, than be a one and done NCAA team. Usually that means 2 homes games and if they win those, then they are in the thick of things. A run in a tournament, any tournament is good for a young team. I certainly don't expect that to be the prevailing attitude. I believe we have won the NIT twice, and made a NCAA run the next year. Some of us have been fans for so long we are comfortable with looking to the future.
 

savagerube said:
The fact is that 20% of the NCAA births in the history of the program have been under Tubby Smith. If you go by the "book" and you don't count the academic fraudulent years, Tubby has coached 33% of the NCAA teams in Gopher basketball history. I don't think Tubby's the problem; I think some fans' expectations are an issue. Before Tubby, the Gophers went to back-to-back NCAA tourney's ONCE. I would also like to see more success but it's not like we were ever a perennial NCAA tourney team. So with that said, technically Tubby Smith is the most successful Gophers basketball coach of all time. Obviously Clem was a great coach but you can't argue against the official record books. So it goes back to the inevitable question: What are we basing our expectations on? Are we basing it on Tubby as a successful coach at an established program (Kentucky)? Or are we basing our expectations on Tubby having a level of success here that has never been seen?
Click to expand...

Fact is, 50% of Tubby's NCAA bids were undeserved, and the other was as a low
seed going nowhere, and finishing in the lower half of the conf. And while it's conjecture not fact, all appearances are that no more will be forthcoming.
Certainly not this season, and not any time soon with the alibi king at the helm.
 

tjgopher said:
That doesn't change the fact that all other Big Ten teams of that era had the same chance to make it. Northwestern never has. And, which team in the pre-expansion Big Ten is next for fewest appearances??? Minnesota. We have very little history.

Excuse me, but wasn't Tubby hired because the theory was that he was SUPPOSED to be a HOF caliber coach who was going to change that? At least that's what the popular story was, and what his exhorbitant salary demands.
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bga1 said:
It doesn't matter. The cheating was stupid but we have now way of know what his record would have been one way or another. All we know is what we see now on court versus what we saw then in terms of development, schemes and the loyalty of the players. 37 and 47 is what it is. Not good enough- need to see better at this price. Not saying I'm giving up,not at all, but this is not at the level we want.
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It does matter. Why are NBA players so much better than college players even though they start from the same place?

They spend 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week (or more) lifting, playing basketball, practicing, etc.

College kids spend 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week doing homework, going to class, etc. And maybe 20 hours a week lifting and playing basketball.

Imagine if you could take your College players, eliminate that pesky homework, -and let them practice and lift constantly. you'd have a pretty good team.

We have no way of knowing how well Clem would have developed players were they to also have class and we have no way of knowing how tubby would develop full time basketball players. That's why they were vacated, because we really don't know.
 

savagerube said:
You're now changing the argument. We were talking about NCAA appearances. I'm well aware of what the B1G records are for each coach. I am also aware of NCAA appearances for each coach: Dutcher: one appearance in 11 seasons. Musselman: One appearance in 5 seasons. Tubby: Two appearances in 5 seasons. Now how do you want to change the conversation this time?
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Not changing the argument at all. I responded to a poster who compared the various former coaches big 10 records by saying one of those records was achieved via cheating. Responded directly to a point made by someone else.
 

Whathavewedone said:
Fact is, 50% of Tubby's NCAA bids were undeserved, and the other was as a low
seed going nowhere, and finishing in the lower half of the conf. And while it's conjecture not fact, all appearances are that no more will be forthcoming.
Certainly not this season, and not any time soon with the alibi king at the helm.
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You should apply for a position on the selection committee.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
You aren't serious, are you? Do you know anything about college basketball or the NCAA tournament? For this post and for many others, I am embarrassed for you. Long overdue, but you've made my ignore list as well.
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I would be embarassed if I were you too with yor exhibition of ignorance. Teams with
sub .500 conference records rarely make the NCAA. The Gophs now sit at 5-7, with
games remaining against Ohio St, Mich St at home and Wisconsin and NW on the road.
Where are 4 wins coming from? For that matter, where will 3 wins come from?
 

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