So I see honest debate isn't an option

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Whathavewedone said:
Isn't that why we hired him? To make us competitive in the BT?
Can't deny that losing players this season hurt, but also can't
deny that another middle of the pack finish was all but guaranteed
had they remained healthy. To me next season should be a
ciritical season for Tubby, but most people are still making comments
about how he will "turn things around in a couple of seasons."
Isn't any one else tired of waiting for things to get turned around,
and ready for them to actually BE turned around(not just from the Tubby
era, but the preceeding eras too)?
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How is this in any way true, let alone something that we "can't deny?" We were at one point 5-3 with our three toughest B10 games out of the way....even if only Nolen had stayed healthy we would have been top 4 IMO....now add Mo into the mix and who knows?

Also, people are likely going to get annoyed when you post 5 times in a row in the same thread
 

Not to start a civics debate here, but it's disheartening to see so many people posting on a forum devoted to a part of an institution of higher learning, that can't bear to debate opposing viewpoints. Lots of the replies on here read like fascists-R-us. I know we're not discussing vital
issues, or talking about the political science dept.; but looks like people should be able to do a little better than shut the &%#@ up you *&^#$^%.
 

Hey Whathavewedone:

Just curious, since you're a long-time Gopher fan, what are your top five all-time Gopher basketball moments? And, can you tell me the last time you've attended a game at Williams Arena?
 

fryguy22 said:
How is this in any way true, let alone something that we "can't deny?" We were at one point 5-3 with our three toughest B10 games out of the way....even if only Nolen had stayed healthy we would have been top 4 IMO....now add Mo into the mix and who knows?
+++
Unlike financial markets, in athletics, past performance is a pretty good predictor of future results. We MIGHT have gone 16-3, but it doesn't seem likely. I'd agree that on paper we had already played the three toughest games, but in case you missed it, we LOST all 3. And we had plenty of games left that looked less than winnable. Even with perfect health I don't see how you would have expected us to go better than 10-8.



Also, people are likely going to get annoyed when you post 5 times in a row in the same thread
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Gee I wouldn't want someone to get annoyed after they've all been so pleasant and reasonable so far.
 


tjgopher said:
Hey Whathavewedone:

Just curious, since you're a long-time Gopher fan, what are your top five all-time Gopher basketball moments? And, can you tell me the last time you've attended a game at Williams Arena?
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Unfortunately I've never been able to go to Williams. Most of my favorite moments came quite some time ago. But I've been told a a couple of them didn't actually happen. I'd say Randy B. has
probably been my all time fave player. Though I've got a weak spot for Dave Holmgren because a nephew went to school with him for a couple of years. Even though the on court success wasn't what it should have been, 1979 was a favorite year of mine. 1990 in Knoxville was a heartbreaker, but still a memory. You might not believe it, but just a couple of years back, March 23, 2007 would probably have been on the list.
 

True, it has to do with my dislike for Buckeyes. But it STILL was illustrative that our conference was not as strong as we wnated to believe.
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When did we join the SEC?
 


Broken, self-contradicting record forum poster is a go. "All you guys are infantile..." "I want a debate..." despite several legitimate objections to your main points. Continuing to respond to the immaterial posts isn't going to get you anywhere but into a pointless, "infantile" squabble. Stop avoiding the counter-arguments and focusing on the replies without substance and you might just get your debate and keep some of that mild-mannered brilliance of yours.
 



Whathavewedone, since you seem so interested in UK, you should tell your friend to hope Anthony Davis isn't ineligible due to the fact that according to the Chicago Sun-Times Davis' family was paid $200,000 to get him to play for UK. Coach Cal had better pray that the guy he called a "selfish MFer" (a.k.a. Terrence Jones) decides to come back, or else the frontcourt could be pretty barren and UK might be in big trouble next season. Of course, Coach Cal is always leaves his school before the NCAA sanctions hit, so your friend shouldn't worry about him too much.
 


NurumbiCongo said:
...

I'll go with do not feed the TROLL
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Good advice.

"Whathavewedone" is a classic troll and appears to be getting off on everyone taking the bait and arguing with him. In a sense, he's running the show.

Some of us go to a few message boards to see "what's new". Hate it when I go to unread posts only to discover the threads are the result of a troll trying to get food for his ego.

Don't feed the troll.
 

KSBGopher said:
Broken, self-contradicting record forum poster is a go. "All you guys are infantile..." "I want a debate..."
+++++
I see that tongue in cheek posts don;t register here either. gee no one has a sense of humor anymore.




despite several legitimate objections to your main points.
+++
I would be interested in you pointing out ANY legitimate objecyions to my points. A couple of people trotted out the "we had too many injuries this season" excuse, but since I already had said we would have done better if healthy, that's NOT addressing my points.


Continuing to respond to the immaterial posts isn't going to get you anywhere but into a pointless, "infantile" squabble. Stop avoiding the counter-arguments and focusing on the replies without substance and you might just get your debate and keep some of that mild-mannered brilliance of yours.
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++++
Be happy to adress counter arguements when someone MAKES ONE. Just remember, STFU you troll isn't a counter arguement.
 



work.6465080.1.sticker,375x360.troll-face-v1.png
 

NurumbiCongo said:
WOW! We had a 'shut up' and response of 'make me'.

I'll go with do not feed the TROLL!

______________________



The troll is looking for an argument. WARNING: Do not engage.
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Like I told the other poster, a sense of humor seems to be hard to find on here. I make a post and am treated to the brilliant repartee of "SHUT UP". So since no one seemed to want to counter with an adult arguement, I thought I'd join the kiddie fun and replied "MAKE ME". (even TOLD you what I was doing in the post) and still on one can lighten up and enjoy the joke. Geesh tough crowd.
 



Whathavewedone said:
Like I told the other poster, a sense of humor seems to be hard to find on here. I make a post and am treated to the brilliant repartee of "SHUT UP". So since no one seemed to want to counter with an adult arguement, I thought I'd join the kiddie fun and replied "MAKE ME". (even TOLD you what I was doing in the post) and still on one can lighten up and enjoy the joke. Geesh tough crowd.
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ARGUMENT. In Mn it's ARGUMENT. It's NOT arguement. And in Mn "MAKE ME" is a perfectly legitimate response to an infantile statement. So is "I know you are but what am I".

Thank you.
 

Whathavewedone said:
Not one attempt to refute anything I posted.
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That is an impossible task. No one has the ability to return to a discussion you had four years ago with your friend from Kentucky and verify whether he said what he was purported to say.

Thus, the statement was irrefutable. Maybe the Kentucky base did see that, but knowing most fans bases I have encountered I would say that is highly implausible for even an above average fan. Especially given a fan base like Kentucky where the base is exposed to only one team requiring passionate loyalty and thus is relatively inexperienced to adversity(cross reference with an MN fan where they have Vikes, Twins, TWolves, Wild, And 3 Major Gophs squads). One tends to get less process based and more results based criticism.

Also, the intelligent discussion you are seeking has two sides; you on the other hand tend just spill your dislike. How about try limiting your debate to topics that are specific such as "I don't like the manner in which Tubby substitutes....in the fourth quarter etc, etc. He did it in this game in Dec, These three in Jan, and then routinely thereafter."

Yes, to get debate you must give fodder for debate. Otherwise, you just get argument. When you act like a child don't be surprised when you’re treated as such.
 

atsgopher said:
That is an impossible task. No one has the ability to return to a discussion you had four years ago with your friend from Kentucky and verify whether he said what he was purported to say.
++++
My overall point wold be that it appears to me that the we see the same things here, that my friend saw there. You COULD try to refute that if you disagree.



Also, the intelligent discussion you are seeking has two sides; you on the other hand tend just spill your dislike. How about try limiting your debate to topics that are specific such as "I don't like the manner in which Tubby substitutes....in the fourth quarter etc, etc. He did it in this game in Dec, These three in Jan, and then routinely thereafter."
+++
Okay, how about the number of transfers and players departed concerns me. Especially since it appears to be a PATTERN. How about Tubby's offense doesn't seem to have a good flow, and too often results in perimeter passing to no effect until the shot clock winds down. Or how about in the case of RSIII, here's a Tubby recruit that after 3 years doesn't appear to have developed his game. Or how about Tubby doesn't seem to be able to make the adjustments in game to stop what the other guys are doing? Or Tubby seems to easily blame his players, but doesn't accept much responsibility himself.

I'll agree that we've had some off court issues that have hindered team development most every year. And some of that, like injuries, is absolutely beyond his control. Some of it not so much. And
maybe after only four years and recovering from Monson's fiasco, and taken indvidually, some of the things I see wouldn't be so concerning. But when they match a pattern I was warned about, well I think it sounds warning bells. What if you sold car insurance and a new client got a speeding ticket for going 10 over. No big deal right. But what if you found out this client was cancelled by another insurance company because he got 5 speeding tickets? Then it concerns you doesn't?
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Duthasmon Smith said:
ARGUMENT. In Mn it's ARGUMENT. It's NOT arguement. And in Mn "MAKE ME" is a perfectly legitimate response to an infantile statement. So is "I know you are but what am I".

Thank you.
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Sorry, a typo is a typo here too. One thing you'll never see me do is criticize anyone's typing because mine is lousy. I constantly type "teh" instead of "the" but see that right away.
 

fryguy22 said:
How is this in any way true, let alone something that we "can't deny?" We were at one point 5-3 with our three toughest B10 games out of the way....even if only Nolen had stayed healthy we would have been top 4 IMO....now add Mo into the mix and who knows?
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Whathavewedone said:
++++
Be happy to adress counter arguements when someone MAKES ONE.
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Feel free to address my above counter arGUment then (in response to you saying we "can't deny" this team would have finished at best 9-9). To further clarify, I feel we would have lost to Purdue at Purdue even with Al/Mo but there is no way I see more than 2 losses out of our remaining games let alone 5 more losses.
 

fryguy22 said:
Feel free to address my above counter arGUment then (in response to you saying we "can't deny" this team would have finished at best 9-9). To further clarify, I feel we would have lost to Purdue at Purdue even with Al/Mo but there is no way I see more than 2 losses out of our remaining games let alone 5 more losses.
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At that point we had 5 road games left and OSU, Mich, Ill., PSU & MSU at home. Even fully healthy with everything going right I can't see better than 5-5 out of that, leaving no margin for error. And given the tree years of history we have to base it on, I'd expect an error. So
it jsut doesn't looke to me like any better than 10-8 was on the horizon. It would have gotten us an NCAA bid, btu it would be another double digit seed and 1st rd. loss. But difference of opinion is what makes a horse race. What we DO know, is that we went 1-9 down the stretch and had a losing BT record.
 

jamalo said:
I think that having Dr. Don request that you be banned is a badge of honor. Even better when he posts it when he is three sheets to the wind!!
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Jamalo, thank you for the compliment in your first statement. Then your following sentence was an insult, so I hereby nominate you, amongst others, as a member of Jimmy Buftett's I-95 song: BTW, welcome to, and meet, the new President of this group, Whathavewedone. You guys deserve each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i6OrOZwtmA
 

whathave.. don't feel bad.. i was banned ( this is my first post since then ) when i suggested we will finish last in the big10 next year...

i too have never said anything vulgar.. or dropped 4 letter words..

i've thrown out some ideas.. some were accurate, some were a miss.. but many of the GHers take too much stuff too seriously...

and dont dare go into a chat room during a game and suggest the Gophers try to run.. you'll incite an f-bomb riot..

okay.. i'll hit <post quick reply> now and see if my ban is lifted..
 

Feeding the troll is simply making any statement acknowledging it. The simple ignore option is very handy.
 

CrocShots....It is really difficult to ignore stupidity.
 

Whathavewedone said:
1) My overall point wold be that it appears to me that the we see the same things here, that my friend saw there. You COULD try to refute that if you disagree.
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Although, I do think this is a far better manner to state your point than your first post. I still think the point is moot.

I could try to refute, but it does not seem to be warranted as objectives of our program and their program are far apart. I guess I really don’t care what they think. I like Tubby’s approach and if it costs loosing and some disappointing years I will bear that cost. I see Tubby process as the way I would like the Gopher program to be built. I view Kentucky as a program that only reveres the end result.

Whathavewedone said:
2) the number of transfers and players departed concerns me. Especially since it appears to be a PATTERN.
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I guess I don’t see a problem with the turnover. I like that Tubby isn’t pushed around by individual’s goals and continues to implement his schemes the way he sees fit. If guys don’t want to be here then that’s fine. The only departures I don’t like are Devoe and Colton. Colton could play a major depth role for us. Devoe could have had a solid career and been given a chance to be very good last year for this team. He left before the opportunity presented itself. Too bad for him; Maybe Tubby could get better at communicating his standards to recruits, but I’m unsure whether that’s the case. I don’t have enough inside knowledge to do anything but speculate.

Whathavewedone said:
3) How about Tubby's offense doesn't seem to have a good flow, and too often results in perimeter passing to no effect until the shot clock winds down.
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I think this is typical that one who is a defensive minded coach will present a low risk defensive minded offense. His philosophy is to dictate the game and play to our strengths. When we are rolling it seems this approach can really help the team. I think it keeps us in big games. However, I agree there is a limiting aspect to this approach. I wish we had a little more balance and the ability to change the tempo to exploit weaker teams and put them under by controlling the game with a demoralizing offense at times. However, that is not the case and I accept that.

Whathavewedone said:
4) RSIII, here's a Tubby recruit that after 3 years doesn't appear to have developed his game.
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I think he has improved quite a bit. He has a tendency to revert to old habits, but I don’t blame a coach for that. RSIII should look inward; I feel his struggles depend on his mindset going in to each game and less on his physical tools…Maybe that part is what Tubby needs to focus on with RSIII…or then again maybe he has been trying to communicate that to RSIII for three years.

Whathavewedone said:
5) Tubby doesn't seem to be able to make the adjustments in game to stop what the other guys are doing?
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Agreed, I think one thing Tubby lacks is the ability to adjust to certain styles. Sometimes it feels like we do that pregame too as we try to force the other team to conform. However, that could also be player dependent. I think we have too little data to really get to the bottom right now and I’m not about to go watch ten years of UK Bball. However, that is really the name of the game in any sport. I criticize most coaches for the same problem.

Whathavewedone said:
6) Tubby seems to easily blame his players, but doesn't accept much responsibility himself.
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I guess we disagree on what a coach can and cannot do. A coach builds a system and helps the players learn that system. A coach also inspires and motivates. Players execute and when execution is the issue the coach should blame the players. One could harp on Tubby’s inspiration and motivation last year and I think that may be valid. I expect him to reflect, learn and move on to next year.

Whathavewedone said:
7) I'll agree that we've had some off court issues that have hindered team development most every year. And some of that, like injuries, is absolutely beyond his control. Some of it not so much. And maybe after only four years and recovering from Monson's fiasco, and taken indvidually, some of the things I see wouldn't be so concerning. But when they match a pattern I was warned about, well I think it sounds warning bells. What if you sold car insurance and a new client got a speeding ticket for going 10 over. No big deal right. But what if you found out this client was cancelled by another insurance company because he got 5 speeding tickets? Then it concerns you doesn't?
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No then you blame yourself for not doing your due diligence (by that I mean either the Insurance salesman or the collective you).

I feel like most people here knew what they were getting: A hard working coach with high personal standards that will both reverse the scandal ridden trends while still putting a reasonably competitive team on the floor. Remember Clem was the latest, not the first or only scandal.

I for one do not expect a National Championship in Basketball. That’s highly unlikely for most schools. I expect MN to heal itself, then start laying the foundation for long term success. Long term success is a consistently competitive program that plays in the top half of the big ten then makes a decent run in the tournament every couple of years.

Maybe, the next coach can be a Calhoun, but he is about as rare as rare gets when it comes to program building.
 

Whathavewedone said:
Not to start a civics debate here, but it's disheartening to see so many people posting on a forum devoted to a part of an institution of higher learning, that can't bear to debate opposing viewpoints. Lots of the replies on here read like fascists-R-us. I know we're not discussing vital
issues, or talking about the political science dept.; but looks like people should be able to do a little better than shut the &%#@ up you *&^#$^%.
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Personally, I wasn't looking for a debate. I was simply looking for you to answer the question that I asked on the first page of this thread. As of now, I have not seen an answer.
 

MRJ said:
Personally, I wasn't looking for a debate. I was simply looking for you to answer the question that I asked on the first page of this thread. As of now, I have not seen an answer.
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I wouldn't want us to get rid of Tubby to get Joe Schmo from Outer Mongolia. But I do think we need a different coach if we're ever going to become competitive in the BT. Catch-22 though, you can't find out who you can get, while you've got a coach.
 

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