Should Ben Johnson had the team foul at end of regulation?

[MNVCGUY]

Weren't you the one that started a CBJ is not a disaster thread?

Yep....and at that time he had a roster of players that were improving and there was reason for some optimism with that group and what they could potentially do in the future.

Then that whole team left (except Garcia) and we were right back to square one. Which again is why I felt Coyle would have been totally justified in making a move after the roster imploded.

I won't apologize for not subscribing to the all negativity all the time that some posters here demand. Best case scenario for the program from day one was Johnson working out. It looked last year like maybe he finally had things trending in the right direction after 2 brutal years, that is no longer the case and it seems very likely he gets fired after this season and that will be the right decision baring some kind of miracle turnaround which seems highly unlikely.

 

[BarnBurner]

Yep....and at that time he had a roster of players that were improving and there was reason for some optimism with that group and what they could potentially do in the future.

Then that whole team left (except Garcia) and we were right back to square one. Which again is why I felt Coyle would have been totally justified in making a move after the roster imploded.

I won't apologize for not subscribing to the all negativity all the time that some posters here demand. Best case scenario for the program from day one was Johnson working out. It looked last year like maybe he finally had things trending in the right direction after 2 brutal years, that is no longer the case and it seems very likely he gets fired after this season and that will be the right decision baring some kind of miracle turnaround which seems highly unlikely.

What you call negativity is reality for anyone being honest. You've been protecting Ben since he was hired. And still do to this day.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

What you call negativity is reality for anyone being honest. You've been protecting Ben since he was hired. And still do to this day.

You will soon be called a racist.

 

[bga1]

Yep....and at that time he had a roster of players that were improving and there was reason for some optimism with that group and what they could potentially do in the future.

Then that whole team left (except Garcia) and we were right back to square one. Which again is why I felt Coyle would have been totally justified in making a move after the roster imploded.

I won't apologize for not subscribing to the all negativity all the time that some posters here demand. Best case scenario for the program from day one was Johnson working out. It looked last year like maybe he finally had things trending in the right direction after 2 brutal years, that is no longer the case and it seems very likely he gets fired after this season and that will be the right decision baring some kind of miracle turnaround which seems highly unlikely.

Johnson was a poor choice. That said- you are right, the administration had a chance to pull out all of the stops last year to help Ben get the NIL needed to keep Payne, Hawkins and even Christie perhaps or in the alternative, buy some big time players for Ben. They didn't. They made a bad choice for coach and then didn't support him when he had an opportunity to make them right. It doesn't get worse than that.

 

[stocker08]

Yep....and at that time he had a roster of players that were improving and there was reason for some optimism with that group and what they could potentially do in the future.

Then that whole team left (except Garcia) and we were right back to square one. Which again is why I felt Coyle would have been totally justified in making a move after the roster imploded.

I won't apologize for not subscribing to the all negativity all the time that some posters here demand. Best case scenario for the program from day one was Johnson working out. It looked last year like maybe he finally had things trending in the right direction after 2 brutal years, that is no longer the case and it seems very likely he gets fired after this season and that will be the right decision baring some kind of miracle turnaround which seems highly unlikely.

Things were definitely starting to come together last year. Unfortunate that things imploding, but that's the new NCAA landscape. Whoever becomes our next coach is going to need more than what Ben Johnson is working with. There's simply no way to compete if other teams are going to pick players off your roster by offering them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[USAF]

Things were definitely starting to come together last year. Unfortunate that things imploding, but that's the new NCAA landscape. Whoever becomes our next coach is going to need more than what Ben Johnson is working with. There's simply no way to compete if other teams are going to pick players off your roster by offering them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This is such a lame excuse.

The problem isn't just money. The problems center around a coach who can't recruit, and can't coach

Every other D1 basketball team in the nation isn't killing the Gophers in NIL.

And for the record, things weren't "coming together" last year.

But if they were, that invalidates your entire NIL excuse. If he assembled a roster capable of an upper tier B1G finish last year, what changed?

And why wasn't he capable of coaching them to the dance?

 

[stocker08]

This is such a lame excuse.

The problem isn't just money. The problems center around a coach who can't recruit, and can't coach

Every other D1 basketball team in the nation isn't killing the Gophers in NIL.

And for the record, things weren't "coming together" last year.

But if they were, that invalidates your entire NIL excuse. If he assembled a roster capable of an upper tier B1G finish last year, what changed?

And why wasn't he capable of coaching them to the dance?

Stupid. The entire roster outside of Jack Wilson and Ramberg could have been back. Johnson would have likely had a solid team. But multiple players were bought away. Johnson didn't do a good enough job replacing those players and will probably end up being fired for it. Nothing we can do about it but figure out how to give the next coach better support.

 

[USAF]

Stupid. The entire roster outside of Jack Wilson and Ramberg could have been back. Johnson would have likely had a solid team. But multiple players were bought away. Johnson didn't do a good enough job replacing those players and will probably end up being fired for it. Nothing we can do about it but figure out how to give the next coach better support.

Why would Christie be back? And why would you want Payne back? You're badmouthing him at TAMU in every other thread.

Get your story straight. It's tough enough to sell the shit you write without contradicting yourself every other post.

And again I ask...why didn't he win LAST year with this kickass squad you're on about now?

 

[howeda7]

Things were definitely starting to come together last year. Unfortunate that things imploding, but that's the new NCAA landscape. Whoever becomes our next coach is going to need more than what Ben Johnson is working with. There's simply no way to compete if other teams are going to pick players off your roster by offering them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Money is a barrier towards being a top 5 team in the conference. Money is not the reason we are the absolute worst program in the conference and have been for 3 of Ben's 4 years. That's on him and his staff. Our NIL situation isn't great. But it's not any better at Iowa, Northwestern, Rutgers etc.

 

[howeda7]

Stupid. The entire roster outside of Jack Wilson and Ramberg could have been back. Johnson would have likely had a solid team. But multiple players were bought away. Johnson didn't do a good enough job replacing those players and will probably end up being fired for it. Nothing we can do about it but figure out how to give the next coach better support.

In Ben's peak season, where "everything was coming together", they had an awful non-conference where they beat no one and lost to a terrible Missouri team and they finished by losing 5 out of there last 6 games and finished tied for 10th. They not only didn't make the NCAA's, they were at least 3 wins short of doing so.

And this year was never going to be a "preseason top 25" team no matter what Mark Coyle or Tom Izzo say. Sure losing as many as they did sucked, but no team in America would have returned all 11 eligible players in this era. Let's say we had retained Payne and Hawkins. If you swap them for Frank Mitchell and Patterson how much better is this team? It's better, but probably competing for 12th in the conference instead of dead last.

 

[stocker08]

Why would Christie be back? And why would you want Payne back? You're badmouthing him at TAMU in every other thread.

Get your story straight. It's tough enough to sell the shit you write without contradicting yourself every other post.

And again I ask...why didn't he win LAST year with this kickass squad you're on about now?

Right. Christie wouldn't be back. All the rest are still playing somewhere.

Add "contradict" to the list of words you need to learn before you start using them.

Money is a barrier towards being a top 5 team in the conference. Money is not the reason we are the absolute worst program in the conference and have been for 3 of Ben's 4 years. That's on him and his staff. Our NIL situation isn't great. But it's not any better at Iowa, Northwestern, Rutgers etc.

He didn't do a good job of replacing the players that left. It's definitely on him. I defended him in prior years because I wanted to see how his team came along once his first class had been with the team for a few years. Things were trending upwards and then a bunch left. Probably time to move on.

In Ben's peak season, where "everything was coming together", they had an awful non-conference where they beat no one and lost to a terrible Missouri team and they finished by losing 5 out of there last 6 games and finished tied for 10th. They not only didn't make the NCAA's, they were at least 3 wins short of doing so.

And this year was never going to be a "preseason top 25" team no matter what Mark Coyle or Tom Izzo say. Sure losing as many as they did sucked, but no team in America would have returned all 11 eligible players in this era. Let's say we had retained Payne and Hawkins. If you swap them for Frank Mitchell and Patterson how much better is this team? It's better, but probably competing for 12th in the conference instead of dead last.

The team would be a hell of a lot better had a bunch of player not jumped ship. That's not to say that the team would have been good enough to warrant keeping Johnson around longer.....but we'll never know.

 

[howeda7]

Right. Christie wouldn't be back. All the rest are still playing somewhere.

Add "contradict" to the list of words you need to learn before you start using them.



He didn't do a good job of replacing the players that left. It's definitely on him. I defended him in prior years because I wanted to see how his team came along once his first class had been with the team for a few years. Things were trending upwards and then a bunch left. Probably time to move on.



The team would be a hell of a lot better had a bunch of player not jumped ship. That's not to say that the team would have been good enough to warrant keeping Johnson around longer.....but we'll never know.

Hawkins left for $$. That's obvious. Payne too.

JOJ, Carrington etc. left because they weren't happy with Ben and their roles as much as anything else. Not everything is about lack of NIL funding. Much of the exodus is on the coaches.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Hawkins left for $$. That's obvious. Payne too.

JOJ, Carrington etc. left because they weren't happy with Ben and their roles as much as anything else. Not everything is about lack of NIL funding. Much of the exodus is on the coaches.

Fair enough....which is why many of us that were pulling for Johnson to succeed have said on multiple occasions that Coyle would have been fully justified if he had pulled the plug when the roster imploded. Some of you just don't want to believe that and keep pretending there are those that think Ben is doing a great job or some other BS like that.

Coyle didn't fire him, electing to give Johnson another shot to build the roster and find success. It doesn't appear that is going to happen so it will be shocking if a coaching change doesn't happen sometime between now and the end of the season (most likely at the end of the season).

Years 1&2 were a trainwreck. Year 3 showed some signs of improvement with a roster that had potential to keep getting better and could potentially be built upon in year 4. We all know what happened to that roster so here we are in what appears to be the final season for Ben Johnson as the head coach baring a miracle turnaround of some kind.

 

[Go4POV]

The outcome has nothing to do with it. It's the wrong decision whether he makes or misses, especially given how little time was left. I'm not sure why this is even a debate.

And if you're not going to foul at least instruct the team to play better fucking defense. I'm not sure what worse, not fouling, or playing defense like you're scared to foul. Just brutal.

Watch the replay. The defense was solid and was for much of the game. One thing you do NOT want to do in that situation is foul the 3 point shooter.A poor shooter hit a prayer.

IMO, the game was lost before that moment by poor offensive execution, failure to penetrate, horrible shooting, and key turnovers. Should have ever come down to the wire like that.

 

[Gophers7633]

Watch the replay. The defense was solid and was for much of the game. One thing you do NOT want to do in that situation is foul the 3 point shooter.A poor shooter hit a prayer.

IMO, the game was lost before that moment by poor offensive execution, failure to penetrate, horrible shooting, and key turnovers. Should have ever come down to the wire like that.

The defense was good for most the game. That last possession, it was not. Way to passive. The offensive play wasn't even anything all that complicated. He got a clean look because the defense wasn't aggressive enough.

 

[Minnesara]

Not that I’m all that attuned to what’s happening on the national level, but have there been any coaches fired because most of his players jumped ship for better NIL deals? I haven’t heard of any, and I doubt that Coyle would have wanted to set a precedent with Johnson.

 

[Outsider]

Watch the replay. The defense was solid and was for much of the game. One thing you do NOT want to do in that situation is foul the 3 point shooter.A poor shooter hit a prayer.

IMO, the game was lost before that moment by poor offensive execution, failure to penetrate, horrible shooting, and key turnovers. Should have ever come down to the wire like that.

Yes you do want to foul the three point shooter before they can get the shot off which there was plenty of opportunity to do.

 

[Dave H]

Watch the replay. The defense was solid and was for much of the game. One thing you do NOT want to do in that situation is foul the 3 point shooter.A poor shooter hit a prayer.

IMO, the game was lost before that moment by poor offensive execution, failure to penetrate, horrible shooting, and key turnovers. Should have ever come down to the wire like that.

You understand they are talking about fouling before he shoots right? That was 99.999999% the correct move. Under no circumstances do you let them get a 3 point shot off.

 

[Go4POV]

You understand they are talking about fouling before he shoots right? That was 99.999999% the correct move. Under no circumstances do you let them get a 3 point shot off.

My point is that this is a debatable call. Coaches disagree on it. The concern being worry that, even if coached to foul early, players will not execute and will foul the player in the act of shooting. The best 3-point shooters miss close to 60%, probably more in a do or die situation.


I am not high on this team by any means. I am simply saying the game was lost for multiple reasons. This decision, which is fair to debate, but IMO, is not fair to say is representative of bad coaching because many reputable coaches would have made the same call. The game was lost because of horrible offensive execution, poor shooting, and a team, mostly seniors, that can not shoot free throws..

 

[bga1]

My point is that this is a debatable call. Coaches disagree on it. The concern being worry that, even if coached to foul early, players will not execute and will foul the player in the act of shooting. The best 3-point shooters miss close to 60%, probably more in a do or die situation.


I am not high on this team by any means. I am simply saying the game was lost for multiple reasons. This decision, which is fair to debate, but IMO, is not fair to say is representative of bad coaching because many reputable coaches would have made the same call. The game was lost because of horrible offensive execution, poor shooting, and a team, mostly seniors, that can not shoot free throws..

Here's the problem- if Izzo does this, people sigh and say oh well. Because Izzo wins and always has.
With Ben, he simply doesn't win many games and if you don't win games you are going to get criticized more. At 2 million per year- he has the criticism coming. Start winning games and your decisions get taken in that perspective.

The reality of this situation is that Ben recruited a really bad free throw shooting team. If he has a bunch of 75% free throw shooters, he orders the foul without question. That's the correct move.

 

[tikited]

Box!

Out!

 

[Johnnyboy18]

Here's the problem- if Izzo does this, people sigh and say oh well. Because Izzo wins and always has.
With Ben, he simply doesn't win many games and if you don't win games you are going to get criticized more. At 2 million per year- he has the criticism coming. Start winning games and your decisions get taken in that perspective.

The reality of this situation is that Ben recruited a really bad free throw shooting team. If he has a bunch of 75% free throw shooters, he orders the foul without question. That's the correct move.

Does he though? He's been the coach for a middle of the pack Big Ten team the last 5 years with 4 and 5 star recruits every year. Not the same winning coach he once was.

 

[bga1]

Does he though? He's been the coach for a middle of the pack Big Ten team the last 5 years with 4 and 5 star recruits every year. Not the same winning coach he once was.

26 straight NCAA appearances (no tourney in covid year)- I'd take that.
By his standards this past 5 years have been pedestrian no doubt but still dancing every time

713-297 record is pretty amazing